Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

[Markdoc]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Amadan-Na-Briona: I mostly get it; I get what we're doing, and it makes perfect mechanical sense to me. The package is part of the CP spent, in a way similar to a perk, talent, skill or power; no matter what the power affects (say, STR +4) the CP doesn't change, just the final number. But you (I think it was, may have been KS) said that RAW does it differently from the obvious way. Let's assume I'm going to do it the smart way, and not the crazy way, but could you (or anyone, for that matter) explain the difference?

 

Here's a simple way to think of it.

 

Joe Normal, the average human hero, has a base of 10 in his Stat line and a NCM of 20 above which he pays double. In short, he's got a 10 point range before he starts to pay double.

 

Mal Halfpint the Halfing hero has the same 10 point range, but his goes from 5-15 in STR: above that he pays double. His starting points are adjusted to reflect his reduced starting stat.s - and normally a minus in the starting line is compensated for by a plus, or a special power somewhere else, so Mal doesn't feel like he's getting shafted.

 

Does that help?

 

cheers, Mark

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Originally Posted by Steve

So in the example of a Storm Giant (with say +50 STR in the package deal for its race) the first 10 points of that package deal raises the STR to 20, then the next 40 points are affected by the NCM and only adds 20 more points to the STR stat.

 

Would it make more sense to assign that STR mod as a Power, or is the cost the same? I know there's a great deal of internal consistency in the rules, I'm just trying to guage the general value of the thing. In theory your costs should roughly balance out, but we know that isn't a guarantee by any stretch.

 

Originally Posted by mayapuppies

I can make a wonderful character on 150 points with absolutely no combat value whatsoever. This same character would get stomped by a 50 pt "combat machine".

 

Good morning, mayapuppies! Glad you could chime in. Thanks for aiming me at KS's site, BTW, I'm already engaged in brief conversations with him and he put a Babau package together for me (or aimed me to one he'd already created, nub sure which). Either way, muchos gracias! Now as to what you're saying, I do have a distinct response:

 

Cr*p.

 

I know I can build a gabillion combat abilities (style, vs. Good characters, resistances, etc.) into nearly whatever I want... I suppose one of the reasons I'm excited in general about HERO is because of the flexibility of the system as a whole. I can spread that to 'average fighter' with 125 CP, and I can do 'Brawn over Brains' as easily as 'Brains over Brawn' with the same CP.

 

There's gonna be some dead PCs during my initial test runs, I can feel it...

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

CURSES. Another thread destroyed by random deletion. Sec.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Good monring, Mark!: Two ways to say effectively the same thing. For me, and how my brain works, it's easier to do it the 'new math' way, calculate everything on straight CP, then assign final modifiers after the fact. I do grep what you're saying though, and it was helpful in that it solidified my thinking. So I'm firm on the inside/outside math of the thing.

 

The next bit I'm going to have fun with is Combat, but I have to read through the book (again) before I grasp both the build options (what you buy) against the style options (what you bought does) and its execution abilities (how what you bought does what it does against people who don't want it done to them).

 

Query: I swing and hit, and deal 8 HKA. You're wearing resistant armor (or you're in worse trouble than we thought). Your Res. Armor rating is 6. I deal two body. Your natural PD doesn't work because you aren't naturally Resistant (remind me to toss that into a Monk build). Do I know roll ((d6-1)*2) and call it good, do I roll ((1d6-1 * 8) for STUN and deduct 6? Are both wrong?

[mayapuppies]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

You're quite welcome. There's a reason KS is in my sig.

 

As for your reaction: CR*P

 

Yeah, I hit that block a while ago. I kept trying to modularize and "balance" my HERO game designs (a hold over from my video game design mentality) and the feeling was very similar to bashing my head against a brick wall.

 

Then one day I saw the light and realized that HERO's flexibility is what was giving me fits and I just embaced it, now I am filled with the glowing warmth of oneness with The HERO.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

To answer you question on Damage Reduction: yes, it prevents both BODY and STUN damage, and usually rounds in favor of the PCs unless the GM wants it to round the other way.

 

With 2rPD, 5PD, 75% pDR, and a 20BODY 80STUN Attack this happens:

20-2 = 18 - 75% = 4.5 BODY ~4BODY

80-7 = 73 - 75% = 18.25 STUN or 18STUN

so the target takes 4 BODY and 18 STUN.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

So this is roughly analagous to what else is going on under the hood. We resolve the primary effect first, then apply all modifiers based on the effect proper. As you say, 20 BODY & 80 STUN are both resolved using the exact same mechanics.

 

Ah, this brings a separate question. Since we're dealing with an HKA, I've been informed that the source of the damage is persistent; i.e., your natural PD doesn't factor in because the source of the damage was Killing, ergo, your Normal resistance be useless.

 

Yes, no?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

For the BODY Damage normal PD does nothing for you, Killing Attacks go against Resistant DEF for BODY Damage.

 

For the STUN Damage Normal PD and Resistant PD stack to block the STUN Damage - but you have to have at least 1 Resistant PD for Normal PD to take effect.

 

If you have no Resistant DEF then you cannot block the BODY or STUN of a Killing Attack.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Ach-HA. That may be a change from Hero 4, because my version (source = possible defense) that the GM referred to when he explained it to me is how I gave it to you; your version is the one I posited as making more sense. Onwards. Upwards.

 

And for those following, I have now emailed RPGnow and am waiting trepidaciously for a response.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Killer Shrike: I'd have to do a dare to compare against the base' date=' but IIRC this is pretty freaking close, and it looks [i']great[/i]. Even pointed out close to my estimate. If you had this already, thanks for pointing me at it. If you didn't have it yet, then my extreme gratitude for doing it!

Just threw it together last night. Luckily I found a website listing the basic profile of a babau so I didnt have to go dig thru my old 3e books, which are all boxed and stored away.

 

Since I didnt have the DMG handy to use the "Monsters as PCs" chart to convert the Babua's profile into a normal playable race profile first, I just winged it a bit. The rest of it was just common sense, with some fudging to keep the points manageable.

 

For instance, the Acid Slime Damage Shield is pretty lame and not as nasty as it is in D&D by a long stretch -- because Damage Shields are ridiculously expensive for their effect in 5th Edition due to needing to also apply Continuous in addition to Damage Shield. To make it comparable would drive the babua's cost up a lot for very little net benefit, so I chose to focus on the teleporting/backstabbing capability instead.

 

Which, while we're on the subject, chains into the next question. A little ditty I like to call: "How do I roughly scale the power of my NPCs through the goal posts of life."

 

In d20, as I mentioned earlier, you have Cockatrice who have a Challenge Rating of 3. We know, since they have a Save or Die attack, that it's totally unfair. So what's a good point spread from total points arrayed against a PC vs. total points the PCs have invested?

 

If a group of PCs have a net of 1200 total points (5 @ 240e, so they're pretty tough at this point) and I throw a 480 point MOB at them, are they challenged? If I use two of those, are they moderately challenged, or are they greatly endangered? I know that we can assign those 480 points in more ways than Creasus, I'm just asking, knowing some folk will hem and haw a bit, what's a general ball park figure to match my MOBs up to my PCs?

 

 

Because HERO characters dont have any sort of automatic "hit point" accrual, if a character wants more BODY or STUN they have to pay points for it. Similarly, if they want to hit better or have more attacks, they have to pay points for it. If they want new abilities they have to pay points for it. And so on.

 

Thus, what you'll likely find is that in the HERO System characters progress in a much more graceful and manageable curve than the stair-stepped D&D progression. The same sort of opposition remain a threat longer, and scaling the opposition to keep pace if desired is much easier; often a single +1 to hit, a single +1 DC to an effect/attack is sufficient.

 

Another thing is that Experience Points = Character Points in the HERO System, so you have direct control over how much extra capability you are doling out each time you grant XP -- its completely under the GM's throttle. In D&D XP is much more abstracted, and since not every level of every class is equal (by a large margin), and there are several automatic up-scales a character gets by leveling the net affect is that as XP is "earned" (and note the difference in mindset, many things have pre-defined XP amounts attached to them and thus are EARNED by players like in a video game and not "granted" to them by a GM), a character can sudenly level, get some significant key abilities all at once and be much more capable in an eyeblink and thus render entire swathes of opposition obsolete. As a collection of characters in a playing group do this asynchronously, it is a very non-orthagonal process for the GM to keep the challenges somewhat scaled appropriately.

 

 

Which raises another point, in a LEVEL based game, settings for that game get strangely distorted to hold opposition of such widely different power level as to be absurd, and you get this bizarre videogame like situation where as characters level they often have to go SOMEPLACE ELSE where there are more powerful threats. And yet, these dangerous, more powerful enemies are kind enough to stay in their little corner of the world. D&D 3e mitigates this somewhat since you can (and should IMO) have "monsters" with class levels -- which is a vast improvement over earlier editions of D&D -- but you still have that flawed underpinning of leveled power.

 

In a POINTS based game, you get far less of that sort of oddness, which should have an effect on your world design. Rather than designing a "CR 3" Cockatrice and a "CR5" Cockatrice, or whatever, turn off that sort of videogame/leveled progression thinking. Just define what a Cockatrice is in your setting, allow some variance for individuality, and turn them loose. Some characters will be able to deal with the threat that it represents, others wont, and it completely depends on where those characters have spent their points rather than on how many points they have. Their relevance to the circumstance rather than their relative power level.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Good morning from where you're at while sip my afternoon coffee, Killer Shrike, and thanks again for the help you've been giving me (and will hopefully continue to give). I've got a lot to say which is vaguely off topic but is in direct response to what you're saying here, because I find the discussion in general to be fascinating.

 

First, on the topic of who stays in which holes why (and why they haven't overrun the entire world). This was the first major chink in the system design of D&D that I tackled, and I resolved it two ways. The primary fix was to do exactly what you said; I rebuilt every MOB from the ground up and assigned it a PC class. This made everything infinitely simpler, since I'd already memorized all of the general class information and could assign feats as generic templates fairly easily. I rounded off the HP, took a stab at their total CON score, gave wimps 0, low-hybrids 1, combat hybrids 2, and combatants 3. That scaled easily, also.

 

One of the differences between HERO & d20 of course being that in HERO you pay for the nonsense stats you receive; in d20 you can assign them pretty much at will, especially if you're DMing, and everyone sort of has the faith to buy into what you did and didn't grant your Bugbear Barbarian a 24 STR because it was a good idea at the time. d20 also makes use of NCM, but out of default as opposed to a specific design philosophy. To go beyond your base + race, you need to burn stat points every four levels, have additional magic items or get wished into place.

 

Unfortunately, this leads to the "wealth management" philosophy that drives D&D. Instead of making treasure 'fun' they make it 'necessary' - a mechanic used to keep the game on track and your players of equal & equivalent power. As you can imagine, this doesn't fit well for a low-magic, world war type campaign.

 

I can't help, to an extent, looking at the points and attempting to determine how those things stack against other elements & factors; mayapuppies made a great point in that someone can design 150pts of "I can't hit the broadside of a barn" while someone more experienced can design 50 pts. of "Don't bother getting up."

 

I am fortunate in that I have piles of d20 books to draw on for inspiration and get a rough idea of how powerful a creature should be, but there are truly insane ones like the Klurichir which look to be worth at least 1,000 points without breaking a sweat. It includes powers like:

 

- Swallow Whole (second mouth, located in the chest)

- Four arms, giving it both Autofire/Rapid Attack & TWF

- Bite sharp POINTY TEETH

- Every word it utters is Blasphemous, as the spell

- It hates you. And itself. And everyone else.

- Giant enchanted axes, which it wields with perfect proficiency

- Etc., etc., etc. The list is so insane that in HERO you start wondering how you'd ever get it approved. Dag. I'll make rebuilding that monster my first order of priority, just out of raw curiosity. Anyway.

 

Is it possible to build in the DS, instead of continuous, only active when the Babau is hit with a HTH or HKA? For range weapons it doesn't matter, really, and you can SFX it as always on, without spending the points if that's an option. You can also distinguishing features to it as disads (maybe a 1/2 pt. by the time you're done).

 

I'm grasping more what Vaninen (sp, apologies) was saying earlier about playing HERO instead of trying to play D&D in HERO. Parts of this are starting to finally 'sink in.'

[ghost-angel]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Is it possible to build in the DS' date=' instead of continuous, only active when the Babau is hit with a HTH or HKA? For range weapons it doesn't matter, really, and you can SFX it as always on, without spending the points if that's an option. You can also distinguishing features to it as disads (maybe a 1/2 pt. by the time you're done).[/quote']

Damage Shield already only works vs HtH Attacks. It does require Contiuous on it, and is/can be hideously expensive.

 

However, if the creature is not intended for PCs then points matter less than the effect you're after. In other words sometimes Concept in opposition needs to trump Points.

 

A better comparison of levels is not the Points a character is built on but CVs, DCs and other similar factor. Parties that can only muster a 5-6 OCV on average will usually be outclassed by anything that has an 8+ DCV (at least be unable to hit it with any kind of regularity).

 

And with Damage Classes, if the PCs have DEF ranging in the 3-10 area something coming at them with 9 Damage Classes (9BODY/31STUN normal; 10BODY/27STUN killing) may take them down in short order.

 

You can also scale points up fairly high in HERO if you keep closer control of how much damage and how well the characters fair offensively. I think a lot of people use a OCV+Speed of no greater than 20 or some such thing as a guideline of how fast vs how good they like combatants to be.

[tgrandjean]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Query: I swing and hit' date=' and deal 8 HKA. You're wearing resistant armor (or you're in worse trouble than we thought). Your Res. Armor rating is 6. I deal two body. Your [i']natural [/i]PD doesn't work because you aren't naturally Resistant (remind me to toss that into a Monk build). Do I know roll ((d6-1)*2) and call it good, do I roll ((1d6-1 * 8) for STUN and deduct 6? Are both wrong?

 

*Scratching head a bit here...*

Eh... Your terminology is a bit odd here. Either 1) you saying you are dealing 8 DC (2.5 d6 Killing) vs. 6 Res defence(PD or ED) or 8 killing damage vs. 6 Res. defence. In the first case you're rolling 2.5 d6 (x) -6 for Bod and x * (1d6-1) - 6+ (PD or ED) Stun.

In the second case you are dealing 2 BOD (8 killing - 6 Res) and 8 * (1d6-1) - 6 Res + (PD or ED) Stun.

 

A few notes on balancing: Point values are somewhat of a guide (because of all the sparkly powers you can build) but as far as straight effectiveness look to Max OCV and DCV (base OCV/DCV + manuevers + levels) (can the player hit the baddie/ how often does the baddie hit them?) , SPD (more options to attack/ more options to dodge/ more options period), Max DCs dealt (are you going to kill/ knock unconcious the players in 1 hit?), PD/ED + Resistant Def (can the players hurt this guy?), BOD and Stun (how many times will the players have to hit this guy to knock him down?), and to a lesser extent: End (how long can this guy deal out the pain?).

 

Generally, you want the baddies DCV within a couple of points of the players OCV(+/-). Too high and the players cannot hit barring a miracle (boring). Too low and the players almost always hit (and thus the MOB needs a higher DEF and most the player's attacks go *spoing!*).

Ditto SPD. Too low and your players will run rings around the opponent/ too high and the reverse will occur.

DEF should be high enough that they don't go down in one hit, but low enough that the players most powerful attacks do some damage on average.

For Stun and BOD figure the average damage past DEF then (*1-2 for minor challenges, *3-4 for average challenges, *5-6 for serious bad news, *7-8 for your major baddies, and *8+ for dragons (big bad nasties who eat parties for lunch).

For End figure the total End spent during a turn (- REC) * the number of rounds that you want to deal with the baddie. I recommend that you ignore high End cost attacks as you don't really want to be using them more than once or twice during a battle.

For DCs dealt, probably the best approach is DC = Ave (BOD/Stun) of the players /3 + (Ave DEF+ (PD/ED)). This means the average player will take 3 hits of the nasties largest attack before going down. Pretty rough, but it's workable.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Basically, the main value of "classes" and similar finite concepts in RPGs is that they serve as a form of contract between the GM and the Players

 

They also provide a common language; a sort of syntactical means of transferring information and synching up expectations

 

For example the D&D 3e handbook basically says to the players, if you play one of these classes, you are guaranteed to be able to use these abilities in a stated fashion

 

So the GM can count on what the players abilities are and it says to the GM, you must design your games to AT LEAST account for any combination of the provided classes

 

In a lot of ways they make the GM kind of obsolete; they remove a large area of the GM's authority. In a lot of ways a D&D GM is much more of a Game Facilitator. They arent really the "Master" of anything

 

All the major decisions have been made at a higher level and the GM's ability to alter them is very limited within the confines of the expected behavior

 

Maybe they are the originators of their own settings or ideas; some D&D GMs make their own scenarios, but a lot of the use supplements

 

Theres also a large correlation between GMs that run their own stuff and GMs that deviate from the rules because as soon as you start trying to tell your own stories or go down paths not specifically hard railed to conform to the illogical concept of classes and levels you bump into the limitations of the system.

 

Basically you end up with a set of people running the game as written within the confines of the rules, who are really just playing a glorified board game with some complex concepts and another smaller set of people trying to force and manipulate a limited system into something more than it is -- kind of like trying to reuse the basic board and accessories of Monopoly to play a complex and unique game where everyone plays some kind of business man in a free market stock exchange; it kind of looks like Monopoly, but its not really Monopoly.

 

 

Here is a doc w/ some musings on similar ideas in it:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/characterDesignNotes.shtml

 

 

As you say Thia, in D&D there is a tendency for characters to turn into damage delivery mechanisms via what Magic items they currently carry.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

tgrandjean: Thanks for posting, and thanks in advance for your feedback. You've provided one of the major guidelines I was looking for; how to guage the battle. Because there are only so many solutions over 13 on 3d6, I agree - determining player striking efficiency vs. BBEG's overall defenses becomes huge.

 

Because I'm running a low-magic FH campaign (which must first be converted from its heathenous d20 roots... mua ha ha...) Combat Abilities must play a major factor in all of this. Considering that one of my primary complaints (as many of the posters on this thread are already aware) is d20's insanely static combat system, "Swing... hit... deal damage... uh-huh, yeah, I'd love to paint the ceiling beige..." I'm excited in great part about what HERO allows people to do, and how it scales it over time through a single round of combat. Hrm. That brings up a few more questions, actually, in regards to mechanics, so I'll ask them while they're hot, fresh & yummy!

 

- In d20, we have three stages of AC; what we'll call Full, Touch, & Flat-Footed. Your FULL AC is your total armor bonus including calculable DEX based on armor worn, the AC value of the armor itself, and any magical/feat bonuses you may have that stack (i.e., are not of the same type, magic & magic, for example, don't stack.)

 

- Your Touch is just your thong & your dex modifier; if your thong is enchanted, we'll count the magical bonus, but that's it. Touch is based purely on your base, magic & raw reflec.

 

- Flat Footed is, as you might imagine, the opposite of touch. You keep all bonuses for armor, but lose your DEX modifier. These three things are important because of the following.

 

In HERO, I want to run a solid magic system with some room for error. In d20, there are 'ranged touch attacks' whose connectivity is based on the Wizard making a to hit roll vs. the targets AC 10 + DEX + Magic (armor bonuses need not apply for this position). I want my wizards to still be able to tac-nuke my BBEG without having the frustration of their miss chance being so high as to make it not-fun. The object of course being to improve the fun by adding true flex and options to what my PCs are doing. Unfun comes from dead PCs who're built poorly on the rules structure.

 

So if I force a check, should I make it independent of the BBEG (i.e., as a Knowledge check of 11-, or variable based on the power of the spell) and then allow the player to buy up that knowledge? Does it make more sense for my Ray based attacks to require a hit roll against the target, and in that case, should I suggest (*coughenforcecough*) to the PC that he buy up the skills that allow him to use magic more effectively, thus flipping magic from a power system to a linked power/skill set? Does that mechanic exist within the confines of HERO?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Originally Posted by Killer Shrike

Theres also a large correlation between GMs that run their own stuff and GMs that deviate from the rules because as soon as you start trying to tell your own stories or go down paths not specifically hard railed to conform to the illogical concept of classes and levels you bump into the limitations of the system.

 

"Hi, my name is Thia Halmades and I... I... *sniff* I can't... I...

I play D20! *sob*"

 

You've pretty much summed up my problem. As I've mentioned here and there, I'm running an epic war campaign set up with a variation on the Fae mythos. I pieced those elements together in order to make the game, as a whole, runnable. I knew that just an orc army wouldn't have quite the punch I wanted. However, using 3.5s Demons from the monster manuals, and making sure they had to be 'brought in' would ensure a mechanic that allowed me to ramp up within the confines of the system without breaking anyone's expectations or forcing GNC moments early on.

 

D&D cliche number one: The villain is aware of the Heroes, but does nothing and instead allows them to gain power until they become a genuine threat. I sidestepped this by making my villains ignorant, and involved with their much larger scheme. My plan, basically, was to have the PCs start as cogs in the wheel, and as they gain fame and notoriety among The Adversary, have them alter their plans/tactics accordingly so as to stay on track. They are already drawing up Rules of Engagement to face off against the PCs, in fact.

 

D&D Cliche Number Two: It's only cool if you have a golf bag full of weapons. I threw that out because I had too; you lose a certain level of grittiness when you've got a Frostbrand called "Twinkle" in one hand and a longsword called "Little Little Star" in the other. Pardon me for defaming RA Salvatore so blatantly, but there are whole elements of Drizzt I never bought into. That was one of them. My point here was that I had to change the typing of the character weapon build in order to move the plot forward AND give them weapons which would injure demons, so they graduated the Academy with Cold Iron Ancestral Relics.

 

The Relics are perfect for HERO because the concept was to instill points into them (money/items) in the first place to raise them up and make them that much more efficient, as well as their personal view of what the weapon should be.

 

Now we run into a wall; I've already worked around money management and again, built a way around the logical fallacy "Why aren't we governed by Dragon Kings yet?" I have a measure of control over my PC normals because I know (as you say, Killer) precisely what they'll be capable of, barring feat selection, and none of those are going to be so powerful as to undo what I envision as the world mechanic.

 

Then the Wizard got Teleport, and I was displeased. TP is great for the villains; allows them to get in and out. A limited TP is great for combat situations, and allows the wizard to move the party in and out of combat range. But being able to pop across a continent? Not what I had in mind. Teleport Without Error, anywhere on this plane? No. I disagree. And the player threw a very well controlled snit, because he isn't the first one who's spells have gotten nerfed.

 

But the fatal flaw of d20 is, as I mentioned, that it's a wealth management system. The fighter keeps up with the Wizard by advent of his gear; the Wizard has spells, and if necessary, can make more gear. I'm not here to play "monster killing boardgame" I'm here to tell a war story, which happens to be about these five people and what they do. Pure collaborative story telling. With that in mind, I really have no interest in seeing all that hard work get gimped because the mechanics have to constantly be bent into new and interesting (and occassionally uncomfortable) shapes.

[Old Man]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Which, while we're on the subject, chains into the next question. A little ditty I like to call: "How do I roughly scale the power of my NPCs through the goal posts of life."

 

If a group of PCs have a net of 1200 total points (5 @ 240e, so they're pretty tough at this point) and I throw a 480 point MOB at them, are they challenged? If I use two of those, are they moderately challenged, or are they greatly endangered? I know that we can assign those 480 points in more ways than Creasus, I'm just asking, knowing some folk will hem and haw a bit, what's a general ball park figure to match my MOBs up to my PCs?

 

If you throw a 480 pt MOB at a group of 240 pt characters, they WILL DIE. Even if there are 5 of them. It's because the critter can have much higher CV and damage levels than the characters. At the double points level, it is possible the party can't hit it or even if they do, they can't get through its defenses.

 

In all honesty I think you should start things at a lower point level then progress up from there (meaning 50+50). Send a few "easy" encounters at the party to get a hang of how the systems swings and with experience adjust accordingly.

[tgrandjean]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

tgrandjean: ...So if I force a check' date=' should I make it independent of the BBEG (i.e., as a Knowledge check of 11-, or variable based on the power of the spell) and then allow the player to buy up that knowledge? Does it make more sense for my Ray based attacks to require a hit roll against the target, and in that case, should I suggest (*coughenforcecough*) to the PC that he buy up the skills that allow him to use magic more effectively, thus flipping magic from a power system to a linked power/skill set? Does that mechanic exist within the confines of HERO?[/quote']

 

Well, that depends on the construct you're using for magic.

If you are using RSR (Requires a skill roll limitation) by default there is a penalty (-1 per 10 active points) built in. So your more powerful spells are more difficult to activate. Your players are very much encouraged to buy this skill up!

Alternately, with a VPP (Variable Power Pool) you could have a unique skill to change the powers available in the pool (and could include RSR also).

To hit with spells is the same as hitting with anything else. 'Your OCV vs. their DCV. You can always purchase levels to be more effective with 1 spell (2pt levels), all magic (5pt levels), or with ALL combat (ranged, magic, hth, whatever) (8pt levels). ... And then there is the 10pt omni level (+1 with anything...).

... And I'm skipping of course attacks targeted vs. Ego...

[Old Man]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

- In d20, we have three stages of AC; what we'll call Full, Touch, & Flat-Footed.

 

In HERO, I want to run a solid magic system with some room for error. In d20, there are 'ranged touch attacks' whose connectivity is based on the Wizard making a to hit roll vs. the targets AC 10 + DEX + Magic (armor bonuses need not apply for this position). I want my wizards to still be able to tac-nuke my BBEG without having the frustration of their miss chance being so high as to make it not-fun. The object of course being to improve the fun by adding true flex and options to what my PCs are doing. Unfun comes from dead PCs who're built poorly on the rules structure.

 

So if I force a check, should I make it independent of the BBEG (i.e., as a Knowledge check of 11-, or variable based on the power of the spell) and then allow the player to buy up that knowledge? Does it make more sense for my Ray based attacks to require a hit roll against the target, and in that case, should I suggest (*coughenforcecough*) to the PC that he buy up the skills that allow him to use magic more effectively, thus flipping magic from a power system to a linked power/skill set? Does that mechanic exist within the confines of HERO?

 

I think I understand where you are going but not exactly.

 

Most attacks are OCV vs DCV. Your Dex mods and such from D&D are translated into OCV/DCV in HERO. Armor as it is only provides rPD and/or rED (yeah magic stuff changes things but I'll keep it simple).

 

If you don't want your mages to be juggling accrobats with 18+ DEX, you can allow them to purchase +CSL (Combat Skill Levels) Only With Spells.

 

The skill rolls bit depends on how you are creating your magic system. Requires Skill Roll is different from an attack roll. The Skill Roll checks to see if the spell came off at all, then the chatacter has to make a OCV vs DCV check to see if the spell hits.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

- In d20, we have three stages of AC; what we'll call Full, Touch, & Flat-Footed. Your FULL AC is your total armor bonus including calculable DEX based on armor worn, the AC value of the armor itself, and any magical/feat bonuses you may have that stack (i.e., are not of the same type, magic & magic, for example, don't stack.)

 

- Your Touch is just your thong & your dex modifier; if your thong is enchanted, we'll count the magical bonus, but that's it. Touch is based purely on your base, magic & raw reflec.

 

- Flat Footed is, as you might imagine, the opposite of touch. You keep all bonuses for armor, but lose your DEX modifier. These three things are important because of the following.

 

In HERO, I want to run a solid magic system with some room for error. In d20, there are 'ranged touch attacks' whose connectivity is based on the Wizard making a to hit roll vs. the targets AC 10 + DEX + Magic (armor bonuses need not apply for this position). I want my wizards to still be able to tac-nuke my BBEG without having the frustration of their miss chance being so high as to make it not-fun. The object of course being to improve the fun by adding true flex and options to what my PCs are doing. Unfun comes from dead PCs who're built poorly on the rules structure.

 

So if I force a check, should I make it independent of the BBEG (i.e., as a Knowledge check of 11-, or variable based on the power of the spell) and then allow the player to buy up that knowledge? Does it make more sense for my Ray based attacks to require a hit roll against the target, and in that case, should I suggest (*coughenforcecough*) to the PC that he buy up the skills that allow him to use magic more effectively, thus flipping magic from a power system to a linked power/skill set? Does that mechanic exist within the confines of HERO?

HERO removes all that nonsense and divides it into two categories:

 

How hard are you To Hit?

How hard are you To Hurt?

 

In DnD you really only have the first thing, armor add directly to your AC which is a "How hard are you To Hit" factor. Damage is then taken directly from your health (Hit Points).

 

HERO gets rid of all that crap and goes all logical on you.

 

If you're wearing armor it doesn't make your harder to hit, in fact in some Fantasy Hero games with Encumbrance Rules you may be EASIER to Hit, but you're harder To Hurt. armor in HERO removes points directly from the damage done before applying them to your health.

 

Thus a relatively sickly person (Low Health) may be average nimbleness (Not particularly difficult To Hit) but stuck inside a suit of Full Plate Male (hard To Hurt).

 

The "full AC" doesn't exist in HERO (Flat Footed could be considered Surprised or otherwise have your DCV Reduced/Removed for whatever reasons) as every attack really just needs to make contact (touch AC).

 

Rolling Damage and the Mitigation thereof is up to how high your DEF are - the higher they are the more damage you can take before actually getting Hurt.

 

Now, there are some tricks you can pull out to increase your chances of Hitting, first is Area Of Effect Attacks - a Single Hex Attack hits everything in the Hex and a Hex has a 3DCV. Unless a target Dives For Cover to leave the Hex it doesn't matter if their DCV is 2 or 200, they're gonna get smacked assuming you hit the Hex itself.

 

Another trick is to buy Combat Skill Levels that increase your OCV (or DCV, and even Damage Classes) in order to reflect a better ability to hit. If you want to be able to Hurt Things you'll want more Damage Classes, not a higher OCV.

 

Oh, and there's none of that "Save for half damage" crap, if you want to take less damage buy higher Defences.

[tgrandjean]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

"Hi, my name is Thia Halmades and I... I... *sniff* I can't... I...

I play D20! *sob*"

...Then the Wizard got Teleport, and I was displeased. TP is great for the villains; allows them to get in and out. A limited TP is great for combat situations, and allows the wizard to move the party in and out of combat range. But being able to pop across a continent? Not what I had in mind. Teleport Without Error, anywhere on this plane? No. I disagree. And the player threw a very well controlled snit, because he isn't the first one who's spells have gotten nerfed.

Just a light-hearted nitpick here.

There are ways around teleport.

You wouldn't believe how much my villains spend on permanent Dimensional Anchor spells.

Surpress vs Teleport Xd6, Area Effect: Radius, Megascale, Continuous, X Charges, RSR, OAF, Gestures, Incantation.

That'll put a damper on Teleport.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

As an aside, related to an earlier question about how to scale threats, if you feel like reading thru it all here is a thread where I hold down 7 450-500 point supers with a bunch of normals with less than a 100 points:

 

http://www.herocentral.net/readStoryThread.htm?postId=311257&campaignId=301376

http://www.herocentral.net/readStoryThread.htm?postId=313053&campaignId=301376

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/Villains/DEMON%20Brother.HTML

 

EDIT: oops --posted the ftp path to the DEMON Brothers instead of the www URL. Fixed.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

True, there are ways around TP (and I considered popping them into Hell briefly, considering its current proximity to the Prime Material Plane) but there's better, less insta-glick ways around the problem. One of them was just to remove TPs, which will allow me to continue running the game close to RAW, but as Killer Shrike pointed out, every time I do that i wind up having to modify the rules/mechanics severely to get what I want, and as I said in the beginning, I am literally incapable of doing what I need to do under the rules set. There's no mechanic for building a new PrC, or changing a base class or anything else.

 

So yeah, that's infuriating.

 

Originally Posted by ghost-angel

Oh, and there's none of that "Save for half damage" crap, if you want to take less damage buy higher Defences.

 

You're gonna hate me for this. This mechanic is incredibly easy to implement, actually. You turn it into a 1/2pt disad - allows stat check - and derived from the d20 system, CON, DEX & EGO replace Fort, Ref. & Will saves. Voila. You want the spells to be harder to resist? Easily bought up. You, as a player want more resistance? Also easily bought up (+CON, limitation: only applies to magic resistance).

 

I haven't decided if I'm going to use it or not, but it was the local CHAMPIONS GM who actually helped me draft the mechanic and thought that it made sense. Just a thought.

 

*dives for cover*

[ghost-angel]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

You're gonna hate me for this. This mechanic is incredibly easy to implement, actually. You turn it into a 1/2pt disad - allows stat check - and derived from the d20 system, CON, DEX & EGO replace Fort, Ref. & Will saves. Voila. You want the spells to be harder to resist? Easily bought up. You, as a player want more resistance? Also easily bought up (+CON, limitation: only applies to magic resistance).

 

I haven't decided if I'm going to use it or not, but it was the local CHAMPIONS GM who actually helped me draft the mechanic and thought that it made sense. Just a thought.

 

*dives for cover*

Naw, you can use that if you want.

 

Just keep in mind you're overlapping the ability to get out of the way with the ability to soak of the damage.

 

I don't believe they should meet outside of SFX.

 

Look at two characters with the Armor Power:

Player 1 defines it as "Big suit of metal."

Player 2 defines it as "Knowing just how to take the damage to minimize it."

 

Mechanically they're doing the same thing: Reducing Damage Taken.

 

In play you have a guy in Chain Mail and a Guy who twists around a lot in combat, they LOOK very different, which is the idea.

"You hit him, but the arrow just bounced off hit armor." and "You hit him but he moves his body just so and it appears you've only left a superficial scratch."

 

With a Limitation allowing a target to make a Skill Roll to avoid half the damage you're effectively giving the target: 50% Damage Reduction: Requires Skill Roll.

 

And I personally think tha'ts a really bad idea. But it simulates DnD quite nicely. And we've already pointed out that you don't actually want to simulate DnD as a System with HERO.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

True' date=' there are ways around TP (and I considered popping them into Hell briefly, considering its current proximity to the Prime Material Plane) but there's better, less insta-glick ways around the problem. One of them was just to remove TPs, which will allow me to continue running the game close to RAW, but as Killer Shrike pointed out, every time I do that i wind up having to modify the rules/mechanics [i']severely[/i] to get what I want, and as I said in the beginning, I am literally incapable of doing what I need to do under the rules set. There's no mechanic for building a new PrC, or changing a base class or anything else.

 

So yeah, that's infuriating.

You'll find in reading through the Magic section of FH there are a LOT of suggestions abut how to custom tailor and limit a magic system to keep certain powers from breaking the feel of the game you want. Large scale teleports are one of those powers that are cannon to D&D and some forms of fantsy, but that can really frell with a plot. I'd suggest a serious talk with the player if you think its going to mess with your game.

 

You're gonna hate me for this. This mechanic is incredibly easy to implement, actually. You turn it into a 1/2pt disad - allows stat check - and derived from the d20 system, CON, DEX & EGO replace Fort, Ref. & Will saves. Voila. You want the spells to be harder to resist? Easily bought up. You, as a player want more resistance? Also easily bought up (+CON, limitation: only applies to magic resistance).

 

I haven't decided if I'm going to use it or not, but it was the local CHAMPIONS GM who actually helped me draft the mechanic and thought that it made sense. Just a thought.

 

*dives for cover*

Yeah. Dive for Cover.

Funny you should mention that.

Roll with Blow. Dodge. Combat Luck. Damage Reduction (requires a Dex roll, must be aware of attack). Missile Deflection. Block.

These tend to be the Hero system equilvilants of Save for half damage.

Eariler someone mentioned one of the philisophical roots of the HERO system.. Reasoning From Effect. The save vs half damage in D&D is a legacy of 2nd & 1st editions which had even LESS combat options than 3rd does... and quite frankly Hero has enough different ways to try and avoid damage or adverse efffects that it doesn't really NEED a save vs damage mechanisim.

Yeah, its easy enough to build into your system.

But why do it?

Its replicating an abstraction in the original system that is easier to reproduce more dramatically and organically than the original source.

Don't try and teach a pig to dance.

It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

 

Off to the store for smokes, be back soon.

oh, and I must say.. this is proving to be an interesting and very energetic thread. Kudos