Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

[Steve]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

D&D cliche number one: The villain is aware of the Heroes' date=' but does nothing and instead allows them to gain power until they become a genuine threat. I sidestepped this by making my villains ignorant, and involved with their much larger scheme. My plan, basically, was to have the PCs start as cogs in the wheel, and as they gain fame and notoriety among The Adversary, have them alter their plans/tactics accordingly so as to stay on track. They are already drawing up Rules of Engagement to face off against the PCs, in fact.[/quote']

 

Another way to approach this is if the villains have some sort of hierarchical structure, but it is not considered wise to report failures to your superiors. The higher-level villains don't become aware of the heroes right away, even while the heroes are dealing with the lieutenant's (or the lieutenant's lieutenant's lieutenant) attempts to kill the heroes. This gives some time to grow the campaign and tailor each 'boss monster' to the heroes current abilities.

 

 

The Relics are perfect for HERO because the concept was to instill points into them (money/items) in the first place to raise them up and make them that much more efficient' date=' as well as their personal view of what the weapon should be.[/quote']

 

This is good to do in Hero as well, since players can invest experience into their Foci to make them more powerful as time goes on. By letting each player customize their weapons, it makes them seem more personal in nature, rather than Bob wielding his trusty +2 longsword but trading up to a +4 Defender when one comes along. The Rokugan setting for d20 got around this notion (since players are assumed to be carrying around ancestral katanas) by going to temples and praying to the kami for greater spiritual powers in their weapons (and investing XPs into improving their katanas). You can easily do something like this in Hero.

 

 

Now we run into a wall; I've already worked around money management and again' date=' built a way around the logical fallacy "Why aren't we governed by Dragon Kings yet?"[/quote']

 

Actually, there's no reason to say they aren't in charge.

 

Dragon Kings could pull strings from behind the scenes, instead of being the person visibly ruling. This gets a bit conspiracy-oriented, which is not everyone's cup of tea.

 

I think you will find many good things to help you in Fantasy Hero when you get it, particularly the ideas on magic systems. You will be able to finesse Hero to work with your story, rather than trying to ram d20 into it.

[Doug Limmer]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Earlier, you had mentioned wanting to have some idea how tough one opponent would be against another in a fight.

 

There have been a variety of methods made to try to measure this. One of them, called the Effectiveness Rating, was presented in Digital Hero #3. I think there's a spreadsheet in the "Free Stuff" section that calculates it, but you may need the article to understand what the numbers mean.

 

Like all such measures, it isn't perfect. But, it may give you a rough idea of how opponents will stack up to each other until you get a good intuition for it to do it yourself. [i personally don't have any practial experience using it; if someone else does, they may want to chime in.]

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

I've DM'd a very long D&D campaign that's lasted a few years but there's definitely way too many holes in the d20 system. The concept of levels is pretty bad. Like one day I'm "level 1", fight a few orcs and then the next morning I wake up and I'm "level 2", suddenly able to take double the damage I could yesterday. One thing about hitpoints I never understood is that they explain more HPs as "dodging blows or rolling with punches". If that's the case, a single "cure light wounds" oughta patch anyone up to full health regardless of how many HPs they are missing. And, I have to agree about teleport. That spell takes "one action" to cast! "Oh, we're losing the fight, better teleport to my log cabin on Lake Sirene for some R&R"... no chance of disruption, no way to stop it, the wizard just has to roll 99 or less out of 100 or he might be 1 mile away from his log cabin.

 

HERO is a much better game but so complicated. I'm glad I read this thread. It took me over an hour but there's so many good ideas here. I'm almost finished reading the FH book myself and have been running a Champions game and a Star Hero game. I'm still getting a feel for the rules. I can say that definitely Fantasy Hero requires much more knowledge of powers, limitations, and advantages than Star Hero where you get a gun and you shoot it at stuff (it's much more a skill based genre).

 

Anyway, Thia, I hope they ship your books soon. If they don't ship them and you can't find the books here, you might consider ordering from where I got mine: www.frpgames.com. I got the books pretty quick. But, you can also buy the download here and have it fast (especially with broadband). I know reading it on a monitor sucks but it'll hold you over until you get the printed books.

 

Hey, one thing about the 5th edition rulebook I noticed. I have two copies and one is much thicker with yellowish paper while the other is thinner and heavier with white paper. What's up with that?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Hey' date=' one thing about the 5th edition rulebook I noticed. I have two copies and one is much thicker with yellowish paper while the other is thinner and heavier with white paper. What's up with that? [/quote']

You're either holding a copy of Revised (yellowish paper) and FRED or both are Revised and the yellowish paper is from the 1st Print Run of that book. The second print runs quality increased dramatically.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

They are both revised so I must have one of those RARE 1st print books. ooooo

[Guest taxboy4]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

I have an 3.5 ed player in my Hero group and even though we have been playing HERO for over two years he is still a rabid fan of 3.5 and insists there are lots of tactical options in D&D.

 

The thing is he is a great roleplayer, not that interested in combat and always uses the flexibility in HERO to compile some great characters.

 

Does everyone find 3.5 players treat the system like a religion, omgoodness, they can be worse than MAC users (use the force Steve).

 

The most recent addition to my group has played literally every system under the sun, he didn't like HERO much - too rules heavy for him, but once I figured out to give his PC generation post concept to our resident rules uber lord the new Player loves the fact he can tell us what he wants and it can be built for him, exactly, not approximations. We also put together a chart showing the ocv /. damage for all his weapons for all alternatives ...

 

HERO you sacrifice simplicity for FLEXIBITY, 3.5 you sacrific logic and simplicity for...errr....yeah......

[Susano]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Does everyone find 3.5 players treat the system like a religion, omgoodness, they can be worse than MAC users (use the force Steve).

 

You got something against us Mac users???

[ghost-angel]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Does everyone find 3.5 players treat the system like a religion' date=' omgoodness, they can be worse than MAC users (use the force Steve).[/quote']

MAC is Media Access Control - as in MAC Address, for instance the unique identifier on your NIC that let's it talk to the world.

 

Mac is short for Macintosh.

 

got something against Mac users?

[Curufea]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

I do think that MAC cultists are more intelligent than D&D cultists....

[Guest taxboy4]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

I do think that MAC cultists are more intelligent than D&D cultists....

 

The danger is having people who are members of both cults, add an a English rugby fan and you are a step away from TV evagenalist!

[Steve]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

I do think that MAC cultists are more intelligent than D&D cultists....

 

Aren't MAC cultists more likely to play White Wolf stuff than D&D?

[Guest taxboy4]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Aren't MAC cultists more likely to play White Wolf stuff than D&D?

 

I read a WW book once....not enought numbers and loverly charts!!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

We play Hero actually, better Interface and it, well, WORKS. Just like our computers.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

And that's what I get for not posting on the weekends.

 

Good morning. *slurp* Mars needs women. Pass it on. While I was out at the local gaming store, I actually found a copy of FH - but no copies of FRED. I briefly considered snarking their copy of FH, but figured "Eh... it'll probably have shipped by Monday. Right? Of course right."

 

*BZZZ* So sorry, thank you for playing!

 

I appreciate the advice on ordering from FRPG but I tried them first: they were out. RPG Outpost actually lists it as being IN and available but they still haven't shipped the garb-farking book. I'm extra miffed because I was hoping to have it at least by Thanksgiving. And I do have a friend who's already DL'd the PDF, and worse, insists that he'd rather have it on his screen than on paper, a philosophy I just can't grasp.

 

For those of you who may recall the original edition of Shadowrun, one of the things that desribed a Hermetic was that, despite living in 2050, they had a bizarre preference for good old fashioned books. This also pops in Neuromancer (and speaking of which, does anyone know how they got to the moon? That's a deep seated mystery for me). I'm one of those people. I can post threads and what have you all day, but I like my books to be printed. *sigh*

 

taxboy4: your player isn't wrong, just mistaken. It isn't that D&D doesn't provide tactical options, it's that the bulk of them require a Feat to do well, and generally speaking they go unused because the system doesn't teach you to think in those terms. To get back to the board game analogy, which is what D&D is simulating, most of it boils down to dice chuckery, and a lot of the extra options & abilities are an afterthought.

 

Sunder? After thought, needs a feat to not provoke an Attack of Opportunity. Grapple? Same thing. And, further, most of those rules have a subset of separate rules which apply to them specifically, making the entire process even more dense than it needs to be. HERO streamlines all of that noise, so any argument over which system is mechanically superior is tossed out the window. You don't see D&D being praised for it's mechanics; they talk about how the 'community contributes.' Sure it does, because they have to build two tons of house rules just to make the car start.

 

Steve: Stupid WW cultists. I ran with them, but I was never one of them. They sussed me out and turned their trench-coated backs on me, the gits. But I got my revenge. I ran a Vampire/Werewolf crossover campaign... and made it work. That really ticked them off.

 

Originally Posted by Steve

Dragon Kings could pull strings from behind the scenes, instead of being the person visibly ruling. This gets a bit conspiracy-oriented, which is not everyone's cup of tea.[/Quote]

 

Are you kidding me? The entire conceit the world is built on is a 500 year old war that no one believes in, save for a small group known as the OSC (Order of the Silver Crescent). The PCs are soldiers in this SpecOps unit, attempting to head off the ultimate disaster. They're attempting to uncover the conspiracy that's tied Hell to the Prime Material Plane and undo it before another cataclysmic war unfolds over the Empire. So yeah. I love me my conspiracies.

 

The Fool: I don't have the freaking sourcebook yet so I'm not as familiar with all the combat as I should be. I did plow through a chunk of 4th Ed. last night and got myself more familiar with the powers and how they work, what they do, etc. That was good. It generated all kinds of new questions but I'll get to posting those after I spend a chunk of my morning replying here.

 

Originally Posted by The Fool

Yeah. Dive for Cover.

Funny you should mention that.

Roll with Blow. Dodge. Combat Luck. Damage Reduction (requires a Dex roll, must be aware of attack). Missile Deflection. Block.

These tend to be the Hero system equilvilants of Save for half damage.

 

These will be incorporated in their full form, then. In answer to your question from earlier, Amadan Na Briona, I plan on using the full boat of combat options. Right now the campaign runs on an ... I want to say anime flavor although that isn't exactly right. Big pauldrons, lean silhouettes, action lines, action blurs, laser like sword cuts that cause people to fall in half while soaking the walls in obscene amounts of blood, these are all staples of demonic combat for this campaign. So far everyone has really loved it, but there are things you can't do unless your character sheet says you can do them; dodge is either a class ability (+X to AC) or a Feat (+1 vs. a given target) but never simply an action.

 

You can fight defensively, but that again only raises your AC and doesn't have the visceral impact of tossing dice and making the play yourself. It's a long list of grievances I've got with d20, and combat is on the list. One of the things I'm looking at HERO to do is, in fact, provide "heroic" combat. The words "Heck with this, dodge" should instigate a die roll and a combat-based reaction instead of flavor text on my part. "He swings (rolls a 5, misses) and you manage to adroitly avoid the demon's claws!" (checks chart for next in order) and so on... that's gettin' old. Well, got old.

 

Doug Limmer: Thanks for the update, I'll check that right after I'm done with the morning post. I just need to strike the proper balance between the PCs having fun and getting schooled.

 

And... yeah, that's all I have at this moment. I think. More coffee! NURSE! COFFEE!

[Steve]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

These will be incorporated in their full form' date=' then. In answer to your question from earlier, [b']Amadan Na Briona[/b], I plan on using the full boat of combat options. Right now the campaign runs on an ... I want to say anime flavor although that isn't exactly right. Big pauldrons, lean silhouettes, action lines, action blurs, laser like sword cuts that cause people to fall in half while soaking the walls in obscene amounts of blood, these are all staples of demonic combat for this campaign. So far everyone has really loved it, but there are things you can't do unless your character sheet says you can do them; dodge is either a class ability (+X to AC) or a Feat (+1 vs. a given target) but never simply an action.

 

I could make some additional source recommendations if you like this sort of action:

 

Digital Hero #8 has an article written on how to do anime style stuff in the Hero System. It is written by Michael Surbrook, who posts on these boards as Susano.

 

Ninja Hero - the new edition is also written by Michael, and it is a wonderful resource for how to do martial arts action campaigning, from the real world all the way up to video game style action like in Street Fighter or even anime style power levels like Dragonball.

 

He also runs a website with a ton of Hero source material and character write-ups.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

I've considered subscribing to Digital Hero but I'm such a snob when it comes to magazines and written material. I'm also very anti Dragon magazine, some of the worst balanced, poorly prepared material ever produced and printed. I'm sure that in part that's me and my view of what a game should be about, vs. the evolved board game that the game is written as, but the conflict still exists. However, you've yet to steer me wrong in any sense of the word, so if you recommend it, I'll subscribe to it and check it out. However, I reserve the right to lambast you if it fails to meet my exacting specifications.

 

I've checked out Michael's site before, he recommended it earlier on, and there is some good material there, although I haven't really delved wholly into it yet. Picking up Ninja Hero may be a good plan; they still haven't shipped my books (ROAR), although I did grab copies of the Bestiary (which is surprisingly beefy) and MM&M. By tooling with my copy of HERO 4th I've managed to grasp the math required to cost out a power.

 

When someone says "Active Power Cap" they're referring too the total number of points one can invest in the base power, before the modifiers and disads are tacked on, correct? So an APC of 50 means that you can't go tossing around 4d6 RKAs, because they cost 60 Active points, yes?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

And to resolve one arm of this saga: I've spoken to the lovely gents over at RPG Shop and he's sending me a copy of FRED & my Combat Handbook. He didn't have a copy of FH in stock, so I'll have to get it elsewhere, but he was extremely fair in cutting me a deal for it and keeping my business. Props to Allen. If he posted, I'd give him rep. I don't generally endorse companies, but he treated me right, and deserves his props.

[Susano]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

When someone says "Active Power Cap" they're referring too the total number of points one can invest in the base power' date=' before the modifiers and disads are tacked on, correct? So an APC of 50 means that you can't go tossing around 4d6 RKAs, because they cost 60 Active points, yes?[/quote']

 

Correct. However, Active Points do include Adders and Advantages. So an APC of 50 means you can't have a 10d6 EB, Armor Piercing, either, as that is 75 Active Points. You can, however, have a 6d6 EB, Armor Piercing, as that totals 45 Active Points (and so on).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Are you talking about an EB as an RKA, or as a RNA? Because I was under the impression that 15 CP = 1d6 Killing, regardless. I don't know yet what a good cap is going to be, but that thought crossed my mind. When we say 'Active Point' what, exactly, do we mean? What the power would cost prior to disads? Do we then concurrently figure in the various options until we generate a 'Real' cost, and we track the 'Active' cost to get an idea of game balance?

 

For example, a friend of mine (in his own words) was an idiot and didn't put in an Active Point Cost and wound up with a hero who had a pair of stick shockers that only did stun, transferred to anyone else that touched them, bounced, and had a couple of other absurdities tacked on. He owned every fight he was in, hands down. I want to avoid that.

[Susano]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Are you talking about an EB as an RKA' date=' or as a RNA? Because I was under the impression that 15 CP = 1d6 Killing, regardless. I don't know yet what a good cap is going to be, but that thought crossed my mind. When we say 'Active Point' what, exactly, do we mean? What the power would cost prior to disads? Do we then concurrently figure in the various options until we generate a 'Real' cost, and we track the 'Active' cost to get an idea of game balance?[/quote']

 

RNA?

 

Anyway, an EB is 1 Damage Class/1d6 for 5 points. So 3d6 of EB = 1d6 of RKA.

 

Active Points is the cost of a power, including all Adders and Advantages, before one counts Limitations. So, a 5d6 EB, NND (+1), AOE (Radius; +1) would be (25 x 3) 75 Active Points. Real Points is the cost after all Limitations, so if the above power as OAF (-1), it would have a Real Cost of (75 / 2) 37 points.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

RNA = newbie shorthand for Ranged Normal Attack, or your basic EB. I was figuring based on RKAs, which is mostly what I'll be dealing with. However, I did follow your math, thanks!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Base Cost = points for effect + any Adders

Base Cost * (1+ Advantages) = Active Points or "AP"

AP / (1 + Limitations) = Real Cost or "RC"

 

Character pays RC.

END is based on AP

Adjustments effect AP.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Be cautious when setting a hard Active Point Cap. Let's say you have a cap of 40 active points. This would get you a 8d6 EB, or a 5d6 armor piercing EB (25 points * 1.5 = 37). The 5d6 armor piercing EB is going to on the average do about 10.5 less damage which means it's only going to be better against someone with 2*10.5 = 21 DEF. In 99.9% of cases this will be worthless when compared to the 8d6 EB. Of course, that really depends on the type of campaign you are running. You may rule in cases like this that the player could have at least 6d6 armor piercing EB (45 active points) for example. Of course you really have to take it on a case by case basis.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Personally, I use AP and RC caps where it appropriate to tailor the campaign I want, but in full blown supers I dont use any sort of AP or RC cap.

 

A good example of this is in the MetaCyber setting Im working on right now.

 

http://www.killershrike.com/metacyber

 

I put a 30 REAL COST cap on Meta Powers, and a 30 ACTIVE POINTS cap on cybernetics for instance.

 

 

The net effect of which is that Meta Powers can be quite powerful, but must be limited in some fashion if they have AP greater than 30. Cybernetics on the other hand have a definite limit to their utility.

 

This serves several purposes within the context of the campaign, and also takes into account the utility of equipment and off the rack weapons.

[Curufea]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

EB or Energy Blast is an historical callback to the superhero roots of the Hero system (where Energy Projectors were a common archetype). Ideally it should be called a Ranged Normal Attack to make it as intuitively descriptive of what it does. Especially as an EB can be defined as physical in effect, as an alternative to energy (ie used PD instead Energe Defence).

After all, for hand to hand combat we have both HKA and HA...