Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

[incrdbil]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Pardon me.

 

What?

 

Gracias!

From what I understand, dont by petrification as a transform.

 

Buy it as a killing attack, with the special effect that it turns the body to stone. (You could apply some form of limitation here, as in 'attack has no effect until enough cumulative body results to kill target, or 'no effect unless target is killed in one hit).

 

To unpetrifty a person, You could simply say that Healing, bought with the 'ressurect' adder could unpetrify somone. A 'Flesh to Stone' spell would be healing, bought with that modifier, and then with the limitation 'only on petrified people) at least a -1, maybe more.

 

A side effect of doing that way would be that any spell consiisting of healing with ressurect adder could 'unpetrify' people as well--unless you make a house rule that petrification attacks can only be resurtrected by specific stone to flesh spells.

 

I think it is a great example of how there are many different ways to do things in HERO.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

As I mentioned' date=' I'm fighting my way (in a baby vs. bear sort of way... and the bear isn't being gentle) with the 4th Ed. CHAMPIONS book, and it's driving me vaguely batty. On the one hand I have the GM telling me that the changes from 4 to 5 are minimal, but I have to believe that there's some sort of improvement to the general formatting of the beast.[/quote']

 

Ah, yes, under those circumstances I can understand your frustration. I may be able to help there.

 

This link will take you to a webpage with a pretty thorough summary of the changes to the core rules between Fourth and Fifth Edition HERO: http://theemerged.blogspot.com/HERO425.htm . It isn't detailed enough to actually replace buying 5E (deliberately so), but it will definitely give you a heads up as to what to expect.

 

If you have a copy of 4E Champions without an index (only the Deluxe version included one), you'll probably benefit from the index which I'm attaching to this post as a Document file - see below.

 

I hope that helps.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Originally Posted by incrdbil

To unpetrifty a person, You could simply say that Healing, bought with the 'ressurect' adder could unpetrify somone. A 'Flesh to Stone' spell would be healing, bought with that modifier, and then with the limitation 'only on petrified people) at least a -1, maybe more.

 

Okay, that I grasped *gasp* "He can be taught!" I'm still utterly baffled as to how frame works and spell purchasing is going to work, but there's no point in me asking really in depth questions without copies of both H5thRev & FH in my lap and a lot of scratch paper available. I will ask this:

 

- We're slinging about a great deal of numbers to represent specific things. For example, Healing (Ressurect), Only Works on Stone (-1). Is that really such a big deal against simply buying the regular ability straight up? Another way to ask.

 

- Healing (Ressurection) costs X. How much more significant is X-1 when I can just buy one power and cure all problems for all time? Is this a GM call, or am I missing a key concept in RAW (Rules As Written)?

 

New question, same concept:

 

- I have a Cockatrice. I want my Cockatrice to be a big fat baby when it comes to combat; it can peck you, but the physical attack itself is a pittance compared to the Transform (or Killing Attack) damage dealt. The reason I specifically wanted to keep them separate was because it doesn't make sense (to me) to have it dealing both Flesh to Stone damage and physical damage, and have them both count against BODY.

 

- If I hit you with Flesh to Stone, and I deal 7 BODY, that isn't (IMO) the same as me hitting you with a stick for 1, 2, 5, 6 dice of Normal damage (14 STUN, 4 BODY). The two should be tracked separately, otherwise you've fallen over a long time ago, despite the fact when I swing, I'm dealing 2/d6 -2 damage (1).

 

Or (as asked prior) am I missing sum-sum?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

So the argument is that so long as its an OIF and can be removed, then it shouldn't cost points. That points are things that are built into the character, like brick into mortar. Ne'er shall the twain be split. Mui importante, gracias! If I were to create a "+2 Longsword" (to remain consistent) would that equate to:

 

+2 OCV (this weapon only, OIF) and +2 Body? Would that be overpowered, should I just give it Extra Stun (1/4)? Would the +2 BODY stack with the STUN roll (I'm assuming yes). I'm asking because I don't fully grep all the rules yet, or how much Body a Fantasy Hero should end up with. I know that Fantasy Hero is going to be pretty brutal, combat wise, especially because everyone is swinging for Killing Damage, although I've also heard the argument that HERO is less lethal, which I don't really understand. Specifically:

 

Your average Fighter is going to be swinging with a 15 STR. We'll say a Greatsword deals 1d6+1/2 HKA, which stacks to 2d6 1/2 HKA. I roll straight killing damage (avg. 8 BODY) and come close to killing me a commoner who is likely not wearing resistant armor, and if not dead, they're almost guaranteed to be unconcious (28 avg. STUN) and dead from a Coup de Grace on the next segment.

 

Warning: Newbie shorthand follows. Now we make our Fighter a Demon. We'll make it a sneaky demon. We'll make it a sneaky demon with a 20 STR and a 30 DEX, immunity to all sorts of things (poison, lightning, possibly limited transform), and Sneak Attack (2d6 HKA, only works from behind, must be an edged weapon, target must be distracted/unaware, must be within 6" if used at range, prereq for Range usage: Point Blank Shot, linked to normal attack). And he uses a short sword (1d6 HKA) and gets the drop on the target. Unless the hero has resistant armor, he's looking at ... 5d6 1/3 HKA, averaging 16 BODY and 56 STUN, if I did my math right.

 

That, to me, is extremely lethal. Now, granted, odds are good my heroes will have resistant armor (hardened leather, plate, etc.) but I haven't play tested the system enough to know whether or not this is going to end someone outright. I'm not saying I'm not willing to drop a PC if the dice dictate it, I'm saying I don't want the fight to be unfair.

 

Thoughts?

 

First off, before I put on my "veteran GM advisining the system noob" hat, let me express how nice it is to see a d20 D&D convert who REALLY understands how to think through game mechanics and tries to gt a feel for them. You'd not beleive some of the hardheads we've tried to help on here before.

Just for that fact alone I'm gonna rep you.

 

Now.... on to analysis...

The +2 sword was pretty much covered. Options are basically... each plus gives +1 OCV, +1 DC, or Both. When I'm converting, I usually go +1 ocv per plus and +1 DC per 2 plusses, so a "drab" +2 longsword would have a +2 OCv and do +1DC damage. That said, I seldom ever do drab magic items anymore. Unusual ones are often more fun.

 

The Demon... whooo boy. You're right... HERO is MUCH easier to scale than D&D.

And what you've slapped together for an example here is frankly lethal, even if you did make a couple of minor oopses.

 

Some things to consider...

Don't worry so much about instant lethality against comoners as a benchmark. You haven't expressed how many of the comabt rules you plan on using, but in most standard Fantasy Hero Campaigns you'll see at least some use of Hit Locations, Impairing and Disabling Wounds and Bleeding. In addition, the Stun damage mechanisim will drop characters much faster than Body damage... the system was deliberately designed that way, to give a more "heroic" feel. So Its fully possible to make a rather nasty bad guy without ramping up the power level anywhere near as high as your demon. a 1d6 KA shortsword with +1d6 ka Deadly blow (Sneak attack version) and a 20 str will let your demon put most unarmored normal humans down, unconcious and bleeding to death, in a single blow, and will kill them outright if it hits in the head or vitals... both of which are pretty easy to do from suprise, especially with a high Combat Value.

 

Bear in mind, most Fanstay games started at 75+75 characters will have a few basic ground rules in place... like Normal Characteristic Maximums. So stats in the 20+ range are both rare and unusual. at the point level you're looking at, don't expect to see many characters with a dex above maximum, and most below it. Killer Shrike says that a 125 total point character is roughly equall to a 3rd Ed D&D 1st level character.... I can buy this. so your PC's will be starting off roughly equall to 2nd-4th level characters. Your demon there would be a pretty good match as he stands for a 250 point superhero...maybe even a 350... (Think of it as throwing a 12th level Demon against a party of 2nd -4th level characters *mulch*) With a 30 dex, he's gonna eat the pc's and come back for seconds. Presumably your players will have some skill levels socked away, so they'll at least have some hope of hitting him, but as levels can only be used one way at any given instant of time, PC's going "Full offence" to get a high enough OCV to get a chance to connect will be sitting ducks for a counterattack, and will still probably miss around half the time on a full out attack. The to hit mechanisim in Hero, being on a bell curve, is such that once OCV/DCV imbalances hit a certain level it becomes VERY touch and go to survive a fight. IF you want the demon to be blisteringly fast, super dangerous and still beatable.. thats TOTALLY do-able, but you'll probably want to tweak it a bit...

Or better yet, start another thread... "Howabout a "Build My demon by committee" thread where you throw out your basic ideas and desires and then see what the twisted members of this baord come up with

One of the better ways in HERo to do "immunity" isn't immunity at all, but simply enopugh resistance toefectively be immune. LS is a good option and works wonderfully for things like Disease, Aging, Sleep and Poison. Just make sure that most common attacks using those special effects are built with a limitation that they don't work against the appropriate SFX.

Another SUPER common way, in this system, to reflect Supernatural resistance to damage is Damage Reduction. Usually either limited to certain kinds of attacks (Only versus Fire, for instance) or limited so that certain kinds of attacks ignore it (Not Vs Holy Attacks). The nice thing about Damage reduction is it lets you make a solo bad guy that can face a whole party of PC's and nopt get his clock cleaned right away.... but is still affected by attacks, so the players don't get frustrated at the indestructable monster.

I'll probably be back with more later as the coffee wakes up my brain.

 

And Again, Welcome!

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

CRAP, that's why I recognized the SN. Amadan-na-Briona is Gaelic for Oberon, Lord of the Twilight & Shadow, King of the Unseelie Court, Master of the Fae, forever sundered from one half of his soul, Titania. New it rang a bell, couldn't for the life of me place it. You'd think, since my entire campaign revolves around a love triangle built on the Faerie mythos, that I'd've known that. That, and I've read thousands of pages of myth, legend, and I swear by Feist's The Faerie Queen, which is one of my fave modern fantasy books.

 

But NOOOO. Stupid here has to actually read through the whole quote & double-check the shield to do the mental arithmetic. Curse you over occupied brain! I knew I should've eaten those Mentality Mints when that crazy old man offered them for the price of a few beans... where was I?

 

Oh, yes. First, thanks for the rep. I hope to improve it greatly over time, I don't plan on going anywhere. Second, thanks for the initial insight and advice, I hope the conversation keeps you entertained. Third, I'm not half as snobbish as most DMs seem to have a rep for; I'm a story teller. Not only am I aware that mechanics are my weakness, I'm aware and always willing to ask for help. I pelted Steve Long with email, but finally got the time to get to the boards. He was right, you guys rule. That being said.

 

Mechanics: I still don't grep total weight of numbers. For example; we'll assume I'm laying the Character Maxima smack down on my PCs (true). I plan on some builds having higher options than others; for example, pure Sea Orks are flat-out stronger than normals; they're maxima for STR would be 25 before double hits were incurred. They'd also get a straight +4. I'm not certain as of yet if I need to keep both, if the +4 applies before or after points are spent. I know I read about this on one of the links from the main board, but can't for the life of me remember which way the pendulum swung.

 

The demon in question is a Babau; the entire concept is that it's a self-teleporting assassin. I need it to be quick without being lightning quick. It's primary form of mobility is its ability to gate in and out of combat at will, constantly striking people from behind with its Deadly Blow (with Backstab/off guard modifiers). Generally, it'll use natural weapons (d6 HKA) plus STR (max double, so 2d6 HKA) plus Deadly Blow (+2d6 stack?) for a total of 4d6 HKA. I know a number of things that have to go into demon templates, but I'll save that for a separate thread.

 

DEX is stupid expensive (forgive me n00bity... I'll go put some pants on) and I'd forgotten that. So we'll bring that out of the stratosphere of 'horrifying' to 'somewhat scary.' DEX 22 or so. I want the following to be SOP for this MOB:

 

- Teleport at will, short distances, max 20". That's enough for it to post up, gate in, smack, gate out. I need a mechanic that will represent its ability to pop into place next to you (preferably with a roll for accuracy; so it isn't guaranteed to land next to you, but could) and fire off an attack. I envision this as a standard Phase (half phase gate, half phase strike).

 

- TP is its normal mode of transport, I'll want to make sure it can do it with no END cost to itself (basically, automatic).

 

- Communication: Telepathy, other demons, 100"

 

- Resistance: Lightning, Poison

 

- Vulnerability: Good/Holy weapons, Cold Iron

 

From that basic foundation, suggestions?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Isnt that Faerie TALE by Raymond E. Feist? Good book -- and not just cuz the human family have the same name as me

 

As an aside, Feist is a local for me; Ive met him a couple of times in real life and he's a pretty cool individual. We talked about RPGs for about 10-15 minutes on one of his breaks at a book signing once.

 

 

That aside, here is how I handle Race Packages:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/racePackageNotes.shtml

 

Specifically to your question about how to acheive an altered NCM, this is my approach, excerpted from that document:

 

In the Race Packages provided herein it is intended that Characterisitc adjustments in the Race Package Deals be applied last after all other Characteristic adjustments and not be counted against Normal Characteristic Maxima. This is true of both bonuses and penalties. In this fashion an effective Altered Characteristic Maxima is acheived.

 

and here is an example:

 

EXAMPLE: The stock package given for Hairfoot Halflings grants a +1 Speed, +2 DEX, -5 STR, -2 BODY, -2 INT, -5 PRE as part of the Race Package Deal. If a Hairfoot Halfing Character purchases +10 DEX and +10 STR outside of their Package they do not encounter Characteristic Maxima having neither DEX or STR above 20. Then the Race Characteristic modifiers are applied, resulting in an adjusted DEX of 22 and an adjusted STR of 15. If the Halfling wanted a final adjusted STR of 20 after the Race Penalty is applied, the Halfling must buy his base STR up to 25 paying the doubling penalty for 21 to 25 strength; after the -5 STR adjustment from the Hairfoot Halfling Race Package Deal is applied the Halfling has an adjusted STR of 20.

 

If using HERO Designer, I wrote a little app to spit out an alterant NCM template here:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/RacePackageDeals/NCMExport/NCMExport.asp

 

 

As to your specific request for a Babau Package Deal I can't do anything for you on that right this second as I am at the office, but Ill take a look at it this evening if I have time.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

CRAP' date=' that's why I recognized the SN. [i']Amadan-na-Briona [/i]is Gaelic for Oberon, Lord of the Twilight & Shadow, King of the Unseelie Court, Master of the Fae, forever sundered from one half of his soul, Titania. New it rang a bell, couldn't for the life of me place it. You'd think, since my entire campaign revolves around a love triangle built on the Faerie mythos, that I'd've known that. That, and I've read thousands of pages of myth, legend, and I swear by Feist's The Faerie Queen, which is one of my fave modern fantasy books.

 

But NOOOO. Stupid here has to actually read through the whole quote & double-check the shield to do the mental arithmetic. Curse you over occupied brain! I knew I should've eaten those Mentality Mints when that crazy old man offered them for the price of a few beans... where was I?

 

Oh, yes. First, thanks for the rep. I hope to improve it greatly over time, I don't plan on going anywhere. Second, thanks for the initial insight and advice, I hope the conversation keeps you entertained. Third, I'm not half as snobbish as most DMs seem to have a rep for; I'm a story teller. Not only am I aware that mechanics are my weakness, I'm aware and always willing to ask for help. I pelted Steve Long with email, but finally got the time to get to the boards. He was right, you guys rule. That being said.

If I hadn't just Repped you on general principles, I would for this. You are among a very small number of people on the Net who've actually recognized my SN right off the bat.

And yeah... we're just about the most helpful forum I've ever heard of, as long as you're not a complete d*ck. Even then we'll give someone enough rope to hang themselves, with plenty of warnings.

 

Mechanics: I still don't grep total weight of numbers. For example; we'll assume I'm laying the Character Maxima smack down on my PCs (true). I plan on some builds having higher options than others; for example' date=' pure Sea Orks are flat-out stronger than normals; they're maxima for STR would be 25 before double hits were incurred. They'd also get a straight +4. I'm not certain as of yet if I need to keep both, if the +4 applies [b']before [/b]or after points are spent. I know I read about this on one of the links from the main board, but can't for the life of me remember which way the pendulum swung.

I tend to agree with Killer Shrike on this one... The best way to do this is to put the racial Stat modifiers in the package deal as "Powers"... thus they add or subtract after the stats have been purchaced. So your Sea Orcs would have a +4 Str in their package as a Power... If an orc character buys a 20 str for 10 ponts, it ends up with a total STR of 24. Its clean and it works. The official method is, IMHO, pretty clumsy and doesn't reflect the genre very well.

 

The demon in question is a Babau; the entire concept is that it's a self-teleporting assassin. I need it to be quick without being lightning quick. It's primary form of mobility is its ability to gate in and out of combat at will' date=' constantly striking people from behind with its [i']Deadly Blow[/i] (with Backstab/off guard modifiers). Generally, it'll use natural weapons (d6 HKA) plus STR (max double, so 2d6 HKA) plus Deadly Blow (+2d6 stack?) for a total of 4d6 HKA. I know a number of things that have to go into demon templates, but I'll save that for a separate thread.

Ironic choice of words there... because to up the fear and loathing factor I was going to suggest Lightning Reflexes, which is essentially extra Dex, only for initiative (Who strikes first). It lets you be wicked fast without all the extra Combat Value and base figured Speed. Speaking of which... you want it to be scary fast, putting it at a 5 or 6 speed (compared to NCM of 4 for most races) will make it seem like greased lightning. It'll also give it enough actions to be able to hold it's own against a group of PC's

A few things to bear in mind about the HKA...

To be a system geek for a second... HKA's max out at twice the base damage, as you've figured out. Inherent HKA's, bought with points (Like natural weaponry) usually don't have Str Minimumsa like weapons do, so you get the full bonus from your Str. Deadly Blow adds to BASE damage...Which is why most of us put pretty sharp curbbs on it.

So If your Demon has atural weapons worth 1d6 HKA, with +2d6 HKA deadly blow, and a 20 STR, it can do a max of 2d6 Killing in a normal attack... or a max of 6d6 Killing in a sneak attack. It'd have to find a way to add all those extra damage classes, but it potentially can do it.

A good option for scary natural weapon attacks is to boots up the base HKA (say to 2d6) but take Reduced Penetration, to represent a flurry of attacks from claws, bite, etc... this lets it rend apart unarmored foes with ease, but lets targets in armor have a bit more hope of surviving. remember that you are seldom going to see a character with more than 8 Def or so (unless you deliberately restructure things to allow it liike that). Add a +1d6 Deadly blow to the equation and it gets nasty. IF you want to get more vile, add in a T-port based martial arts, representing a unique fighting style developed to take advantage of the fact that it gates everywhere.

 

 

DEX is stupid expensive (forgive me n00bity... I'll go put some pants on) and I'd forgotten that. So we'll bring that out of the stratosphere of 'horrifying' to 'somewhat scary.' DEX 22 or so. I want the following to be SOP for this MOB:

Dex is quite expensive. Its a staple of Superhero games, but in Heroic level games you'll usually get more mileage using some combat skill levels as well.

Dex 21-23 is nicve and scary for a demon of this sort. Oce again, or as an option instead, you could put some limited Combat Levels to represent its teleportation.

- Teleport at will, short distances, max 20". That's enough for it to post up, gate in, smack, gate out. I need a mechanic that will represent its ability to pop into place next to you (preferably with a roll for accuracy; so it isn't guaranteed to land next to you, but could) and fire off an attack. I envision this as a standard Phase (half phase gate, half phase strike).

 

- TP is its normal mode of transport, I'll want to make sure it can do it with no END cost to itself (basically, automatic).

 

- Communication: Telepathy, other demons, 100"

 

- Resistance: Lightning, Poison

 

- Vulnerability: Good/Holy weapons, Cold Iron

 

From that basic foundation, suggestions?

All those are stone cold easy.

Basic Tport... just buy it according to the rules. As it stands, unless it can't see its target location, the ports are gonna be short enough distance that it won't require any sort of targeting roll. IF you want to change that, it can be done by adding a limit to the T-port ability.

Half move Tport +Attack. covers point 2 nicely.

Edit: Missed the 0 End cost. Easy. add the +1/2 advantage 0 end to the Tport

The telepathy sounds like a Mind Link, unless it can force itself into other Demon's minds. If its just for communication, then definitely go with Mind Link.

The resistances... I'd go with LS Poisons, & either Energy Damage Reduction or Armor (Only vs lightning/electricity -1)

The vunerability sounds like a classic Vunerabllity Disad... say x1 1/2 or x2 body from Holy Weapons and the same for Cold Iron.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Okay, because this is how I learn, pardon me whilst I reiterate what I think you said.

 

1. Bob the Hairfoot buys hissef a nice STR 20. Costs Bob 10cp at a 1:1 ratio.

 

2. Bob now applies his Hairfoot modifier, which smacks him down to 15.

 

3. Bob is bitter, and decides to improve his STR back to 20. However, the modifier is always counted and totaled outside of the CP Bob spends. Ergo, Bob (or Jim, or Harry, or Buffy) can ever cheat the system outside of what their template dictates.

 

3a. Thus, if Bob wants a STR 25, he'll have to buy up to a 30 at normal price, and take the hit. The same rule applies if he wants his DEX to improve further; he's always buying at his CP spent rate, never at his modded rate.

 

Yea? Nay? Oh, and I sent you an email. And I meant to ask you something else, but I already forgot. Whee!

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Okay, because this is how I learn, pardon me whilst I reiterate what I think you said.

 

1. Bob the Hairfoot buys hissef a nice STR 20. Costs Bob 10cp at a 1:1 ratio.

 

2. Bob now applies his Hairfoot modifier, which smacks him down to 15.

 

3. Bob is bitter, and decides to improve his STR back to 20. However, the modifier is always counted and totaled outside of the CP Bob spends. Ergo, Bob (or Jim, or Harry, or Buffy) can ever cheat the system outside of what their template dictates.

 

3a. Thus, if Bob wants a STR 25, he'll have to buy up to a 30 at normal price, and take the hit. The same rule applies if he wants his DEX to improve further; he's always buying at his CP spent rate, never at his modded rate.

 

Yea? Nay? Oh, and I sent you an email. And I meant to ask you something else, but I already forgot. Whee!

 

Close.... very close...

The only bit thats off is that Bob The Bitter has to buy his Str up to 25 to get a 20 Str, because he has that pesky -5 racial modifier. the first 10 points are 1:1, normal cost for STR. Because the rest are above NCM, he pays double, so he gets the last five for another 10 points, because hes paying 2 points per point above NCM. In a game without NCM, those extra 10 points would net him a 30, minus the 5 down to a 25 total. Got it?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Originally Apologized for by Thia Halmades

Edit: Mea Culpa, Feist's Faerie Tale, Edmund Spenser's Faerie Queene. I've been discussing both at length lately. Now back to our regularly scheduled board discussion.

 

Curse you over occupied brain. Don't make me shake my fist at you.

 

Okay, power structure I'm good with. Vulnerabilities work very differently in HERO than in d20. d20 allows for two base forms of damage resistance:

 

1. DR (Damage Reduction, Value/Form). In other words, if you don't take damage from anything that isn't Cold Iron, that's worked in there. So you could have DR 10/Cold Iron, and you can ignore the first ten points of damage from any source except Cold Iron. I need to replicate this.

 

2. Vulnerabilities. These are exactly as you said, Amadan. You take *X damage from the listed source (Fire, Poison, Sharp Pencils, Spit Balls, etc.) You covered this one just fine; I'm assuming the other one is an expensive form of P-Shield?

 

Telepathy = Mind Link with anything in the zone, specifically demons. It's how you can get a bunch of Chaotic Evil creatures to coordinate their attacks over the sounds of rending flesh and the screams of the fallen. It's also the primary mode of information extraction as various spies in the heart of the Empire are using this exact method to extract information and pass it on. I plan on running that group as a side-story to the main campaign during my initial HERO test runs.

 

I don't grasp SPD or DEX yet, you'll have to give me some time with that. Query: can I buy up derivitive stats? Is it expensive? I figured that the clean way (and this being HERO, a house rule seems more born of convenience than of necessity) is the way I describe above, good! That explains something and I can keep that ace in my pocket. Points be points, and stats be stats. Purchases are modifiers outside of that reflect active vs. invested build. My thanks for that one.

 

Now here's where you lost me, and my pants:

 

Originally Posted by The Fool

So If your Demon has atural weapons worth 1d6 HKA, with +2d6 HKA deadly blow, and a 20 STR, it can do a max of 2d6 Killing in a normal attack... or a max of 6d6 Killing in a sneak attack. It'd have to find a way to add all those extra damage classes, but it potentially can do it.

 

Here's where I'm confused. I get that 20 STR grants 4d6 Normal/1d6 HK with one die leftover. With that, that's straight. I'm up to 2d6 HKA with natural weaponry. We've now given it Deadly Blow for 2d6, and it stacks. We won't buy it up any further specifically because it stacks, and 2d6 is plenty deadly. When I add 2d6 + 2d6 as I understand what we're doing here, I get 4d6, so your 6d6 confused me. What am I missing from the equation?

 

I'll read more on the whole STR requirement to swing a weapon, but can I infer from what you're saying that you 'spend' part of your STR score to swing the weapon, and it deducts from total damage you're dealing?

 

Thoughts?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Originally Posted by The Fool

Close.... very close...

The only bit thats off is that Bob The Bitter has to buy his Str up to 25 to get a 20 Str, because he has that pesky -5 racial modifier. the first 10 points are 1:1, normal cost for STR. Because the rest are above NCM, he pays double, so he gets the last five for another 10 points, because hes paying 2 points per point above NCM. In a game without NCM, those extra 10 points would net him a 30, minus the 5 down to a 25 total. Got it?

 

*nod* Yes, sensei. I will try again.

 

- Bob has a 20 STR prior to application of powers, which, using NCM, cost him 10 points (1:1).

 

- Bitter Bob then looks in the mirror and realizes he lost 3' in all the wrong places, and took a -5 hit to his STR score. He now has a net STR of 15, even though his CP says 20.

 

- Bob starts working out (that plucky little fellow! Why are short people always 'plucky?' You never hear an Offensive Lineman be referred to as 'plucky.') and begins burning CP at a 2:1 ratio in order to get his STR to a net 25, which means consuming another 20 points.

 

- At a CP value of 20 (1:1) to an improved value of 30 (2:1, or another 20 points) for a net of 25 once his racial package is applied.

 

Yes?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Curse you over occupied brain. Don't make me shake my fist at you.

 

Okay, power structure I'm good with. Vulnerabilities work very differently in HERO than in d20. d20 allows for two base forms of damage resistance:

 

1. DR (Damage Reduction, Value/Form). In other words, if you don't take damage from anything that isn't Cold Iron, that's worked in there. So you could have DR 10/Cold Iron, and you can ignore the first ten points of damage from any source except Cold Iron. I need to replicate this.

Ok, this is easy. All you do is buy extra defences with the limitation Conditional (Doesn't work against attack form X) Usually the best options are either Armor (which stops a flat amount of damage) or Damage Reduction (which stops a percentage of the damage from each attack). Example... the classic Werewolf in the HEro system usually takes say, 75% physical Damage reduction that doesn't work vs. Silver. So even with minimal defences (say around 2 resistant PD armor) it gets to shrug almost all damage from non silver weapons... a hit for 20 Body damage will do 20 minus 2 =18 body divided by 4 = 4.5 body damage. This option works VERY well with regenrating monsters, or to simulate big nastys that require a LOT of pummeling to put down. Be wary about using lots of DR with even medium defences or you can make a virtually unkillable critter.

 

2. Vulnerabilities. These are exactly as you said' date=' Amadan. You take *X damage from the listed source (Fire, Poison, Sharp Pencils, Spit Balls, etc.) You covered this one just fine; I'm assuming the other one is an expensive form of P-Shield?[/quote']

taking extra damage is, as you've already said, easy. Simply use Vunerability, or in some cases Susceptibility... or both. IF the creature takes extra damage from attacks, thats vunerability. If exposure inflicts damage, thats a Susceptibility. Many critters have both. For instance... My write up of the Sidhe have Vunerability X1 1/2 Stun from Cold Iron (It dosen't poison them, but it HURTS a lot more) AND Suscpetibility : Cold Iron, instant effect 3d6 damage from contact with cold iron (It burns...). Demons are usually done much the same way in regards to Holy Effects.

 

Telepathy = Mind Link with anything in the zone' date=' specifically demons. It's how you can get a bunch of Chaotic Evil creatures to coordinate their attacks over the sounds of rending flesh and the screams of the fallen. It's also the primary mode of information extraction as various spies in the heart of the Empire are using this exact method to extract information and pass it on. I plan on running that group as a side-story to the main campaign during my initial HERO test runs.[/quote']

Communication level telepathy with allies is almost ALWAYS Mind Link. The information extraction version, however, would use the power Telepathy, as it allows you to pull thoughts that the target doesn't want you to know.

I don't grasp SPD or DEX yet' date=' you'll have to give me some time with that. Query: can I buy up derivitive stats? Is it expensive? I figured that the clean way (and this being HERO, a house rule seems more born of convenience than of necessity) is the way I describe above, good! That explains something and I can keep that ace in my pocket. Points be points, and stats be stats. Purchases are modifiers outside of that reflect [i']active[/i] vs. invested build. My thanks for that one.

Figured atats can be bought up seperately... its already core to the system. Various benefits gained from stats can usually ALSO be bought up... either by established parts of the system (Lightning Reflexes for Dex Inititative order, Combat Levels for OCV or DCV...) or by buying Statistics with limitations (Such as +5 Str, only to offset Encumberance Penalties, Or +5 Str, only to meet Str Minimums on weapons)

Dex & Speed.

Dex is your basic manual dexterity and raw agility. it factors into combat a LOT more than D&D dex does, as it increases both your offence and defence, as well as determining order of attack. Speed can be looked at as "The number of actions per turn my character can take" This usually represents either experiene (someone who uses economy of action and doesn't hesitate) or simple raw agile speed.. as in.. he moves like a freaking blur....

Neither Stat is essential to a competent fighter, as this is a very flexible system and there are many ways to increase effectiveness... but in general your competent adventurer types will have both stats above average.

 

Now here's where you lost me, and my pants:

 

 

 

Here's where I'm confused. I get that 20 STR grants 4d6 Normal/1d6 HK with one die leftover. With that, that's straight. I'm up to 2d6 HKA with natural weaponry. We've now given it Deadly Blow for 2d6, and it stacks. We won't buy it up any further specifically because it stacks, and 2d6 is plenty deadly. When I add 2d6 + 2d6 as I understand what we're doing here, I get 4d6, so your 6d6 confused me. What am I missing from the equation?

 

I don't blame you... this is one of the more confusing aspects to the system.

the problem you're having is the difference between BASE damage and TOTAL damage...

When you purchase a HKA, the points you are spending are the BASE damage. Almost everything that adds to that damage that wasn't purchased as a HKA is ADDED damage, and your TOTAL damage can't equal more than twice your BASE. the problem, and what you're nort seeing, is that the Deadly blow sneak attack is bought as additional HKA, only from suprise attacks. See, its more points of HKA... so it counts as BASE DAMAGE. So your maximum TOTAL damage is increased by the deadly blow talent. In reality, it might not make much difference most of the time, but it DOES allow for POTENTIALLY much higher maximums.

in your example...

Straight attack

1d6 HKA (Damage class 3) base +20 Str. (+3 damage classes, because of Maximum = x2 base) Total = 6 damage classes, or 2d6 HKA

Sneak attack

1D6 HKA (DC3) + 2d6 HKA Sneak Attack (+6 DC)= 3d6 HKA base attack (DC9)

+ 20 STR (+4 DC) = DC 13 attack, also known as 4d6+1 HKA total.

Not too far off your numbers. But if the Demon has, say +4 levels with claws, it could put those levels into increasing the damage of the sneak attack by another +2 DC, bringing it up to 5d6 killing (2 levels= +1 DC). Doing a Haymaker with the same attack, say as a coup de grace against a downed foe, adds another +4 DC to the attack, maxing it out at 6d6 killing.

Nasty.

I'll read more on the whole STR requirement to swing a weapon, but can I infer from what you're saying that you 'spend' part of your STR score to swing the weapon, and it deducts from total damage you're dealing?

 

Thoughts?

Str Minimum is a common limitation on all real weapons in most Heroic games. It means that there is a base STR needed to weild that weapon without penalties, and you only get extra damage for STR above the Minimum. So a sword with a STr min of 11 requires a 16 STR to get an extra DC of damage.

Magic weapons may be built without Str Mins to reflect their lightness and ease of use... this is a LOT more effective than it might appear at first glance. 2 identical bastard swords (1 1/2d6 HKA), one mundane with a 13 Str min (used one handed), and one magical with no Str Min, are used by Heros with 18 Str's. Even tho they do the same max damage, withoutother damage adds, the Mundane sword will do 2d6 HKA (5 DC from the weapon, +1 DC for the character having 5 STR more than the Minimum) and the magical one will do 2 1/2d6 (5DC weapon, +3 DC for Str).

Boost the Strs to 20, and Mundane guy does the same damge, while Magic guy is now doing 3d6 killing.

Any questions?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

*nod* Yes, sensei. I will try again.

 

- Bob has a 20 STR prior to application of powers, which, using NCM, cost him 10 points (1:1).

 

- Bitter Bob then looks in the mirror and realizes he lost 3' in all the wrong places, and took a -5 hit to his STR score. He now has a net STR of 15, even though his CP says 20.

 

- Bob starts working out (that plucky little fellow! Why are short people always 'plucky?' You never hear an Offensive Lineman be referred to as 'plucky.') and begins burning CP at a 2:1 ratio in order to get his STR to a net 25, which means consuming another 20 points.

 

- At a CP value of 20 (1:1) to an improved value of 30 (2:1, or another 20 points) for a net of 25 once his racial package is applied.

 

Yes?

 

By Jove I think he's got it!

Congrats!

[Curufea]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

- We're slinging about a great deal of numbers to represent specific things. For example, Healing (Ressurect), Only Works on Stone (-1). Is that really such a big deal against simply buying the regular ability straight up? Another way to ask.

 

- Healing (Ressurection) costs X. How much more significant is X-1 when I can just buy one power and cure all problems for all time? Is this a GM call, or am I missing a key concept in RAW (Rules As Written)?

 

Just a note on this-

For every given affect a player wants to achieve and simulate in the Hero system, there is one primary concern and one secondary concern.

The secondary concern is - How can I simulate this with as few points as possible.

The primary concern is - Does it fit the GM's setting?

 

If the GM specifies "this is how the affect functions in my universe" then that is how powers should attempt to be built.

 

There should be a fair amount of consultation about "flavour" for this kind of thing. The first power build you think of as a player, may not fit well in the setting of the GM.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

One thing to keep in mind as a general toss out to the conversation, curufea touched on it:

 

Powers mean nada unless they have an attached Special Effect (SFX). Reasoning From Effect should become doctrine.

 

And keep in mind any given thing you want to do we can come up with at least half a dozen ways to do it, and it's up to you (both players and GM) to decide which method fits best within your vision and your Game.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

I just want to say "Welcome to the club".

 

We're all spending Friday night at the treehouse. You bring marshmallows.

[Steve]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

1. DR (Damage Reduction' date=' Value/Form). In other words, if you don't take damage from anything that isn't Cold Iron, that's worked in there. So you could have DR 10/Cold Iron, and you can ignore the first ten points of damage from any source [i']except[/i] Cold Iron. I need to replicate this.

 

First, Thia, let me join the others in saying "Welcome to the boards." I've been very impressed reading your postings. It's rare to see a newcomer who is so darned eager to learn the ins and outs of the system. Consider yourself repped.

 

I just wanted to chime in on the commentary to mention that there is a way to do an invulnerability type of ability that I didn't see the other posters mention. 5th Edition suggests that a 'total invulnerabilty' type of power to a specific effect can be done using a limited form of Desolidification, but purely as a defense. I believe it is a -1 Limitation on the power. This would be how you could do something like a fire elemental and give it invulnerabilty to fire.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

First, Thia, let me join the others in saying "Welcome to the boards." I've been very impressed reading your postings. It's rare to see a newcomer who is so darned eager to learn the ins and outs of the system. Consider yourself repped.

 

I just wanted to chime in on the commentary to mention that there is a way to do an invulnerability type of ability that I didn't see the other posters mention. 5th Edition suggests that a 'total invulnerabilty' type of power to a specific effect can be done using a limited form of Desolidification, but purely as a defense. I believe it is a -1 Limitation on the power. This would be how you could do something like a fire elemental and give it invulnerabilty to fire.

Thats not a 100% popular option, some GM's (myself included) consider that to be a horrible kludge.

 

 

The new Fantasy HERO also offers up the idea of buying enough defense against something to be practically invulnerable and then have the GM declare that its an "Absolute Defense". I recall being very against that idea when FH was in the development stage as well, but its still the lesser evil than the Desolid-not-really approach.

 

Dont get me wrong, Ive used both, but neither are ideal solutions.

 

For instance, my write up of Namorita uses Desolid vs Electricity:

http://www.killershrike.com/misccharacters/newwarriors/Namorita.HTML

 

26

2) Conductive: Desolidification (affected by Everything Except Electricity), Inherent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (90 Active Points); Only To Protect Against Electricity (-1), Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2)

Notes: GM's Option "Not Really Desolid"

 

 

while Firestar uses Absolute Effect:

http://www.killershrike.com/misccharacters/newwarriors/Firestar.HTML

 

37

1) Immunity To Microwaves And Heat: Armor (0 PD/50 ED) (75 Active Points); Only Works Against Microwaves And Heat Damage (-1)

Notes: Absolute Effect

 

 

In the end I used Desolid for Namorita because she is supposed to be actually conductive, so electrical damage should pass thru her and potentially into something else, and Desolid models that better.

 

The fact that it's 11 points cheaper than the Absolute Effect I used for Firestar continues to irritate me, but I console myself with the fact that Namoritas can be circumvented mechanically (by Affects Desolid), while Firestars is pretty much always going to have some effect.

[Steve]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Thats not a 100% popular option' date=' some GM's (myself included) consider that to be a horrible kludge.[/quote']

 

I admit it's a kludge, but it's an example of trying to reason from effect and use what gets you near what you need in an effect.

 

We all have things in the system that we love or hate with passion, and there are alternate ways of doing things. I consider the flexibility of Hero that way to be one of its strengths. We can disagree (sometime quite passionately) about "The One True Way" to replicate an effect using the system, but that's part of having that flexibility.

 

There are no real heretics in Hero, just people with different points of view.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Here is a pass at a Babau Race Package:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/RacePackageDeals/misc/babau.htm

[ghost-angel]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

I admit it's a kludge, but it's an example of trying to reason from effect and use what gets you near what you need in an effect.

 

We all have things in the system that we love or hate with passion, and there are alternate ways of doing things. I consider the flexibility of Hero that way to be one of its strengths. We can disagree (sometime quite passionately) about "The One True Way" to replicate an effect using the system, but that's part of having that flexibility.

 

There are no real heretics in Hero, just people with different points of view.

Ah, yeah forgot about the Desol trick, mostly because I'm with Killer Shrike in that I don't really like it much at all. It is a Kludge, but like KS one that I've used.

 

And yes - in HERO there is no Wrong Way. But if you post something to the boards you will get a whole bunch of very friendly reasons why you shouldn't do something. And a whole bunch of very friendly reasons why you should. And then you get what will be quite possibly the most polite flame war on the internet. with a YMMV tacked onto the end of it.

 

So - in the end your Game matters more than the System.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Good morning. *yawn, smack*

 

First, thanks for the warm welcome, and Steve, thanks for the rep. Even before I thought I would gain rep, I've been repping people out of sheer gratitude and sincere thanks for helping me answer some of these initial questions. I stand by what I said, y'all rule. And I am seriously enjoying the posting I'm doing & reading, which has been a major element in easing me psychologically through the transition of one system to another. Rarely is da n00bas treated so well, and it's nice to see that the idea we're all tied under a common banner isn't dead.

 

I'm not a flame guy, but what ghost_angel said is absolutely true: you start talking D&D with people, and you're going to get your feet put to the fire. I've tried to put some of those fires out, but I'm always shocked when my post is somehow "skipped over" because it offered conflict resolution. Proof positive that if you take enough people with disparate points of view and give all of them a voice, you may as well put dice and character sheets in their hands and tell them to settle it nice & proper like. With a combat.

 

But it is Friday, and my books still haven't shipped. Does anyone have a personal friend at RPGShop.com they can call and harrass? This here be tickin' me off, yeah? And their hours don't begin 'til... ELEVEN? Get my rebel yell on. If I find them this weekend I'm totally cancelling my order. Roar.

 

Originally Posted by The Fool

By Jove I think he's got it!

Congrats!

 

Amadan-Na-Briona: I mostly get it; I get what we're doing, and it makes perfect mechanical sense to me. The package is part of the CP spent, in a way similar to a perk, talent, skill or power; no matter what the power affects (say, STR +4) the CP doesn't change, just the final number. But you (I think it was, may have been KS) said that RAW does it differently from the obvious way. Let's assume I'm going to do it the smart way, and not the crazy way, but could you (or anyone, for that matter) explain the difference?

 

Second, on the issue of DR (Damage Reduction). I grasp both concepts easily enough; the Desolid which pops as an auto-effect when the MOB (or the PC, if they have Fire Resistant Armor) is exposed to the element in question. Fire is easy, we'll stick with that in this example. By 'horrible kludge' I assume y'all are saying that we've strapped a plank board to a wounded man and told him to walk; that generally speaking, the system just doesn't handle absolute concepts. I'm with that, and that's actually okay. A lot of what Amadan was talking about before was getting really really close to those power levels while still having the option of getting hit, and I'll get back to that in a minute. But we're on the concept of Energy Damage Reduction, near as I can tell.

 

What I have to ask is this:

 

Originally Posted by The Fool

Example... the classic Werewolf in the HEro system usually takes say, 75% physical Damage reduction that doesn't work vs. Silver. So even with minimal defences (say around 2 resistant PD armor) it gets to shrug almost all damage from non silver weapons... a hit for 20 Body damage will do 20 minus 2 =18 body divided by 4 = 4.5 body damage

 

I may be about to sound utterly retarded, but: Is there a 100% variation on this for E-based forces? Fire? Lightning? Baby vomit? (those who don't think baby vomit isn't a penetrating energy attack haven't been around many babies.) Also, what happens to the other half a body? Does it get consumed into the great mathematical ether? Or, since rounding is done in favor of the PC, does it take 5 Body, and roughly 15 STUN?

 

And! Pursuant to that question, does the defense prevent STUN damage?

 

I still have more questions, but I'll shut up long enough to let someone respond to this particular mess.

 

Good morning!

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Originally Posted by Killer Shrike

Here is a pass at a Babau Race Package:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyH...misc/babau.htm

 

Killer Shrike: I'd have to do a dare to compare against the base, but IIRC this is pretty freaking close, and it looks great. Even pointed out close to my estimate. If you had this already, thanks for pointing me at it. If you didn't have it yet, then my extreme gratitude for doing it!

 

Which, while we're on the subject, chains into the next question. A little ditty I like to call: "How do I roughly scale the power of my NPCs through the goal posts of life."

 

In d20, as I mentioned earlier, you have Cockatrice who have a Challenge Rating of 3. We know, since they have a Save or Die attack, that it's totally unfair. So what's a good point spread from total points arrayed against a PC vs. total points the PCs have invested?

 

If a group of PCs have a net of 1200 total points (5 @ 240e, so they're pretty tough at this point) and I throw a 480 point MOB at them, are they challenged? If I use two of those, are they moderately challenged, or are they greatly endangered? I know that we can assign those 480 points in more ways than Creasus, I'm just asking, knowing some folk will hem and haw a bit, what's a general ball park figure to match my MOBs up to my PCs?

[mayapuppies]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Ironically enough, you cannot compare raw point values for an accurate portrayal (i.e. a 150 pt character vs. a 150 pt monster).

 

I can make a wonderful character on 150 points with absolutely no combat value whatsoever. This same character would get stomped by a 50 pt "combat machine".

 

You have to compare a lot of variables and, essentially, GM experience to get an idea of what the PC's can handle.

[Steve]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Amadan-Na-Briona: I mostly get it; I get what we're doing' date=' and it makes perfect mechanical sense to me. The package is part of the CP spent, in a way similar to a perk, talent, skill or power; no matter what the power affects (say, STR +4) the CP doesn't change, just the final number. But you (I think it was, may have been [b']KS[/b]) said that RAW does it differently from the obvious way. Let's assume I'm going to do it the smart way, and not the crazy way, but could you (or anyone, for that matter) explain the difference?

 

Well, the RAW gives all characters the standard Normal Characteristic Maxima (NCM), whether you are a Storm Giant or a Halfling. So in the example of a Storm Giant (with say +50 STR in the package deal for its race) the first 10 points of that package deal raises the STR to 20, then the next 40 points are affected by the NCM and only adds 20 more points to the STR stat. You can't change the maxima in the RAW, so all builds are effectively equal as far as a mechanics standpoint is concerned. The prior edition of the rules did have cost mechanics for modifying the NCM which many people found objectionable, since you were effectively paying for an ability you might never use, but the current RAW do not. Example: an Elf could pay 3 points and get a +2 raise to the NCM maxima for DEX, but it was wasted points if they never took their DEX over 20.

 

 

I may be about to sound utterly retarded, but: Is there a 100% variation on this for E-based forces? Fire? Lightning? Baby vomit? (those who don't think baby vomit isn't a penetrating energy attack haven't been around many babies.) Also, what happens to the other half a body? Does it get consumed into the great mathematical ether? Or, since rounding is done in favor of the PC, does it take 5 Body, and roughly 15 STUN?

 

And! Pursuant to that question, does the defense prevent STUN damage?

 

No, there isn't a 100% version in the RAW. You could fake up one by taking the costs for 75% and doubling them again, but it's a house rule at that point.

 

Rounding is done in favor of the character, so the half point just goes away. Poof.

 

Yes, the defense does protect against STUN, but you can also take a -1/2 Limitation, if it only protects against STUN or only protects against BODY.