Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

[Thia Halmades]

Good afternoon;

 

I'm not sure how broad or narrow y'all want to answer this question, so I'll just sort of open it up and leave it on the table, with the option of posting new threads and questions in the future.

 

Simply put: d20 is broken. Specifically, it's broken because the attempts at keeping it simple have resulted in a system so convoluted that there's no longer an inherent balance from one thing to the next; it's very difficult to build a new thing, because the things that are out there are designed more on a whim than on any written convention. By opting to flip to HERO, I can guarantee a control of powers, abilities, and structures within a low-magic campaign setting which is building towards a planes war, where the Prime Material is simply the Battleground, not the prize. Considering that everyone in these stories usually wants to claim the PMP, one of the things I had intended to do different was adjust that particular cliche.

 

I'm (at long last) awaiting my copies of HERO 5th, Fantasy Hero, and the Combat Book, because I wanted it. Besides, otherwise I wouldn't've had three books, and I'd've felt I was missing something. As I learn more of what the system can do, I'll make the requisite changes and purchase supplemental material. With that background, here are some basic questions I'm hoping y'all can help me with.

 

- Have any of you made the same flip, from d20 to HERO? Do you find merits in both systems? Can HERO really recreate anything that I can do in d20, but better and more balanced?

 

- This is written as a low magic campaign; I'm looking for suggestions on how to keep players in check. I need to put together builds for all the major classes (I had a link to the classes which was pretty sweet, from the board listed here) and I'm already starting to get a feel for how that works. What are some resources/suggestions for keeping the correct flavor?

 

- How do y'all work currency? If the players find a +2 Longsword, do they pay for it? What would "+2" mean in HERO? Obviously there's a lot more room to define & design objects, so part of me is certain that ye olde +2 longsword will be no more; but I might make a Longsword that grants itself a +2 OCV and deals +2 Killing Damage. Would I achieve the same effect?

 

I'll start there and get some input. Thanks in advance for the help.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Ohohohoh!! I got it! I got it! Killer Shrikes website has an amazing amount of inormation for just this sort of thing.

 

Other than that, you have done a wonderful thing.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

That's a great start, actually! I'm flipping through it now, so this is a great start. The conversion set up alone is worth it, along with his explanation of how to keep people from double-dipping, and how a package deal actually works (internal usage of disads which don't count against PC final build).

 

That's a first step! Thanks mayapuppies.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

De nada! I've stolen..erm, referenced his work damn near in its entirety.

[Dale A. Ward]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

With a little study, you'll soon come to the conclusion that most of us have...

 

The Hero System is open-ended enough to do damn near anything.

 

Actually, in my opinion, the only game system that comes close is GURPS... and that system is too limited for actual play (although, they have some good source books).

 

I started with Basic D&D, then went to AD&D... then, I found Champions and the original Fantasy Hero. Since that day, I've tried many other games... even gone back to AD&D and, eventually, d20. But, I've always ended up back in the Hero world. Even in my current situation (being nowhere near anyone that actually plays RPGs), I still open my books and practice creating characters, vehicles, spells, equipment, et al.

 

It is my heartfelt wish that, one day, if I've been a very good boy, I may actually be allowed to play again.

 

~heavy sigh~

[Savinien]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

This is precisely the reason I swore of D&D.

 

Remember... If you're just going to play D&D, play that. I don't see the sense in repeating D&D with HERO. Simply create and play the game you want to using HERO.

[Lucius]

Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

There are a FEW things Hero does not do that well. The "Magic Missile" is an infamous one. It's hard to make a power in Hero that ALWAYS hits.

 

But mostly, you will find that you can do anything - it just may cost a lot of points.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary promises we'll be back later with more advice.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

If you run into anything you have specific questions about, or anything that seems borked on my site, I take direct questions and will correspond with serious GM's (which you sound like from the clarity/coherency of your opening post).

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/FantasyHERO.htm

 

killershrike@killershrike.com

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

It isn't that I'm maligning D&D - I'm not, really, any more than I'm maligning d20. But I'm in a position where I'm forced to admit that there are things that I want to do as a 'grown up' gamer that d20 doesn't account for. Anywhere. At all. Even glancing through 4th Ed. CHAMPIONS it's appallingly obvious that they've done multiple mechanics better than d20 does them, without all the counter-intuitive math.

 

To be fair, it's not so much that I'm looking to "reinvent" D&D in HERO - it's... I know what I mean, just looking for a way to say it that isn't inverse. There's a definate look and feel I'm shooting for, which is integral to fantasy gaming. Class/Race packages are a major part of that, those have to stay in. D&D introduced the concept of a Prestige Class which is pretty diesel, but if you work with it long enough, you realize two things:

 

- You're spending more time waiting for supplments than actually building anything, or forwarding your plot and, b.,

 

- The supplements you buy are 90% filler and 10% killer. Other than a few key PrCs and what have you, your options done be shot in the foot, thar, ma'am. And I'm tired of spending money on supplements that aren't doing what I want. Anymore than they provide what I tangibly need, which is a key system that allows me to build whatever I barking well please.

 

And that's when I said "Wait... what was it called...? Champions or something?" And thus my quest began. Over the course of my next two gabillion threads I'll go over other details as I go to fix key things that were broken in the first place. It isn't just a system redesign, it's flexibility and tangible options none of my PCs have at the moment.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Killer Shrike: first, my sincere gratitude for posting what you have to your site, and I've already begun the basic perusal of it. I'm genuinely excited about embarking on what is basically a grand adventure in DMing, going from a flawed system based on good ideas to a sound system based on good ideas. Funny how the two flow together.

 

Lucius: I can handle a Magic Missile that costs a few extra points because it never misses; it's considered one of the great flaws of d20 anyway; a hold over spell that's overpowered for its level, and possibly one of the only first level spells that retains its utility into higher levels. Ghosts? POP. Demon? POP. Your next door neighbor through the open window? POP *Crash!* Oh, my, look at the time...

 

Dale: If you lived in VA I might've been able to help you out, I'm going to be looking for a 5th player for my primary campaign anyway as one of them is cr*pping out on me. The prat.

[JohnTaber]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

This is precisely the reason I swore of D&D.

 

Remember... If you're just going to play D&D, play that. I don't see the sense in repeating D&D with HERO. Simply create and play the game you want to using HERO.

 

I just wanted to mention that Savinien has the right response in my mind. Don't recreate D20 in Hero. Create the game you want in Hero. For example, if you want a low magic fantasy game set campaign limits but don't setup classes. You can get tons of help for this on the FH boards or on my site. I have downloads for a campaign I ran in Orbaal of Harn. It was pretty low magic based.

 

You will be amazed at how fun it is to make characters in Hero...

[mayapuppies]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

For myself, I swore off of D&D when I discovered Rolemaster back in the 80's. I played that exclusively, but kept an eye on Fantasy Hero.

 

Now I'm switching over to FH. I'm not a huge fan of classes, but my players like them because they're "familiar" so I setup packages to handle that. I too, like the concept behind Prestige Classes and I absolutely love the idea of Feats so I go through and setup packages to reflect them.

 

At the end of the day, however, the players leave the "class" mentality behind as the games progress and realize there is so much more out there.

[Curufea]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

I currently am already in two D20 games. It's the attempt by the GMs of those campaign to fold, spindly and mutilate their campaign settings to fit the rules - or to ignore rules/change rules in D20 to attempt to fit the setting that amuses me in a macabre way. I'd had the epiphany of the system weaknesses years ago...

[liquidsnake]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

You are right about Magic Missile its just a hold over from D&D way too powerful and silly, nothing should ever hit no matter what. At least not useable by PC anyway, a lot of em can’t handle that kind of responsibility.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

As an aside, here is my version of Magic Missile:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Wizardry&SpellLevel=1#Magic Missile

 

It doesnt ALWAYS hit, but w/ 1 hex accurate and no range penalty it will hit very often. Absolute effects are bad anyway IMO -- the low frequency of absolutes is one of the things I like about the HERO System.

[liquidsnake]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

As an aside, here is my version of Magic Missile:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Wizardry&SpellLevel=1#Magic Missile

 

It doesnt ALWAYS hit, but w/ 1 hex accurate and no range penalty it will hit very often. Absolute effects are bad anyway IMO -- the low frequency of absolutes is one of the things I like about the HERO System.

But in D&D the things when lanched hit you no matter what, no running, no dodging, no hiding behind cover the stupid thing just hit. I didnt like that at all.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

But in D&D the things when lanched hit you no matter what' date=' no running, no dodging, no hiding behind cover the stupid thing just hit. I didnt like that at all.[/quote']

Yes, I know. Ergo my statement.

[Curufea]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

There have been many discussions about absolutes in the Hero system. My recommendation is - if you want an absolute, don't try to write (or modify) rules for it. Wing it.

There is no need to try to fit absolutes into a system.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

As an aside, here is my version of Magic Missile:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Wizardry&SpellLevel=1#Magic Missile

 

It doesnt ALWAYS hit, but w/ 1 hex accurate and no range penalty it will hit very often. Absolute effects are bad anyway IMO -- the low frequency of absolutes is one of the things I like about the HERO System.

I've done magic missle ish spells very similar.... but not having though about it in quite a while reading this thread gave me a thought...

 

If one felt like it, it would be semi-easy to build MM using the "Summon" model sometimes used for fire & forget seeking missles. It'd give them a lot of the dodging around obstacles and turing around for anothe go capablilities if you really really want them to almost always hit. And it'd model the D&D idea that the more expericnced you are the more you shoot, without requiring a high attack roll to make them all hit... each seperate missile is it's own attack, and by increasing the summon with a smigden of experience you double the number of missles you fire.

Of course, its also a horribly munchkinly build, but hey... A high level MM spell is a pretty muchkin power...

"Yeah... I hit him with 16 missles that just don't miss. ever."

*sigh* "Roll your damage"

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

I allowed (suggested actually) that this character, played by OddHat in a HeroCentral campaign I ran last year, have a power like this:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/CharacterFiles/Legend.HTML

 

The "Lamplighter" ability.

 

And here are the Lamplighters:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/CharacterFiles/Lamplighter.html

 

 

A toned down version could definitely be brewed up for a more "1st level spell" power scale.

 

However, this sort of effect is slower than a real Magic Missle due to the time it takes to Summon and the "summoning sickness" suffered by the Lamplighters the phase they appear, plus any time it takes them to close with their target.

 

Not necessarily a show stopper, but definitely something to consider.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

I allowed (suggested actually) that this character, played by OddHat in a HeroCentral campaign I ran last year, have a power like this:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/CharacterFiles/Legend.HTML

 

The "Lamplighter" ability.

 

And here are the Lamplighters:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/CharacterFiles/Lamplighter.html

 

 

A toned down version could definitely be brewed up for a more "1st level spell" power scale.

 

However, this sort of effect is slower than a real Magic Missle due to the time it takes to Summon and the "summoning sickness" suffered by the Lamplighters the phase they appear, plus any time it takes them to close with their target.

 

Not necessarily a show stopper, but definitely something to consider.

 

Oh, yeah... I keep forgetting about the whole "sumonimg sickness" thing. I occasionally forget about immutable mechanics that get grafted in place solely for purposes of game balance. I think when I start running again I'm going to seriously consider some of the suggestions I've seen and allow a +1 custom advantage "No Summoning sickness". Its not the mechanisim I object to... it's just that this is HERO, dagdabbit, and there shouldn't be things thrown in for color that can't be violated at the GM's discretion.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

+1 is probably a little high for that; +1/2 is probably more in line w/ the utility of not having a 1 phase loss of action. IMO of course.

[incrdbil]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

The thing about magic missles always hitting seems sort of funny considering the concept of hit points.

 

Hit points don't relfect pure physical capacity to take damage-, but also incorperate luck, karma, a lucky dodge, (maybe even a form of endurance) maybe part of your defensive combat skills.

 

A sword hits a 8 hit point 1st level fighter for 8 damage. He's unconscious, will take days to heal. More damage could kill him.

 

A sword hit a 20th level fighter with 180 hit points--he's not really hurt, even scratched. He certainly hasn't taken the same level of damage.

 

So, that magic missile with the same amount of energy that nearly killed the first level guy--it unerringly hit 20th level guy, but does far less damage physically than it does to first level guy. Really, you have to reason 20th level guy shrugged off the missile, somehow minimized the impact, maybe even made them miss through his experienced combat reflexes, for whatever reason, it doesn't bring him to the point of incapacitation. He just doesn't open his mouth, eat the magic missile and say 'yummy!'.

 

So the unerring nature of magic missiles isn't so much of a deal if you want to simulate the d20 spell, because against some foes, they are effectively not really hitting with any measureable effect. So, in Hero terms, I'ld make a Magic Missile spell, give it a good number of built in levels to hit, and if it does 'miss' I'd just say the special effect is they hit but do no appreciable damage. Close enough simulation, I think.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

+1 is probably a little high for that; +1/2 is probably more in line w/ the utility of not having a 1 phase loss of action. IMO of course.

Sounds good to me.

and the lamplighters.... *ouch*

 

High power game I take it

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Thia Halmades, welcome to our community. Please feel free to ask any questions or request input on any game issues. We're generally a pretty helpful bunch, and love to show off how much we know.

 

A great many of us started out playing D&D/D20, and ultimately switched to HERO for much the same reasons that you have - that system didn't let us do everything we wanted to, and some of the ways it does things just didn't work for us. The current incarnation of HERO System really can do nearly anything you can think of, once you've gained sufficient savvy with it (and you can always ask for input from the vets here). IMHO that's partly the result of HEROphiles always pushing the game to its limits in terms of concepts to model... I sometimes think we take its "do anything" claim as a personal challenge.

 

Now, as far as resources to ease your transition from D20 to HERO, there's actually a great deal available for free on the Internet, particularly involving D&D. You've already discovered Killer Shrike's exceptional website; but if I may suggest clicking on the link in my signature, below, and scrolling down to the "Dungeons and Dragons" listing, I'll think you'll find a lot of other useful material.

 

Again, welcome.