Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

[mayapuppies]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Rolemaster handles those issues superbly.

[Guest taxboy4]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Rolemaster handles those issues superbly.

 

I actually quite liked Rolemaster - people said it was complicated but compared to HERO, it ain't!!!!

 

I liked the link from to hit rolls to damage, the skills etc. It was the first game i played that was logical with armour - i.e. good armour doesn't make you harder to hit (another D&D logic bomb) just harder to kill...

[Steve]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

You mean Chartmaster?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

I'm not about to flip from one system to another system to a third system just because the third system has two hundred charts which I need to use as wall paper in the living room to resolve a single sword swing. We've covered the whole "Goblin hit you in the foot and you somehow die" thing from Rolemaster. Ick. No.

 

I want cinema, which means making the mechanics less visible, not more visible.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

I'm not about to flip from one system to another system to a third system just because the third system has two hundred charts which I need to use as wall paper in the living room to resolve a single sword swing. We've covered the whole "Goblin hit you in the foot and you somehow die" thing from Rolemaster. Ick. No.

 

I want cinema, which means making the mechanics less visible, not more visible.

 

Oh, well, Amber Diceless handles that one.

 

What can I say, I'm an extremist.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Why I oughta...

 

It's not that I haven't done diceless; I spent years working on a diceless system with my best friend, that we used purely for solo campaigns, which was an awesome way to burn through an evening. Smoke, tell stories. Very old school, when you think about it. Awesome times, and where I cut my teeth on telling persistent stories in persistent worlds, which was what a lot of that was about. There's an inherent simplicity that comes from a system that was based purely on trust & drama that you can't replicate around a gaming table; too many disparate personalities all trying to get something different out of the experience, and struggling to make their voice heard above the din.

 

What I need to do (and from my understanding, what HERO allows me to do) is cinematic combat, as the players see the scene acted out. Not only is D&D a board game cum RPG, it's a board game that encourages the use of miniatures. Now I'm all for minis when the fight calls for it, but as a matter of course it just gets frustrating. I realize that puts me in the minority, but hey. More storytelling, less pewter pushing.

[Guest taxboy4]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

I'm not about to flip from one system to another system to a third system just because the third system has two hundred charts which I need to use as wall paper in the living room to resolve a single sword swing. We've covered the whole "Goblin hit you in the foot and you somehow die" thing from Rolemaster. Ick. No.

 

I want cinema, which means making the mechanics less visible, not more visible.

 

Heyyyyyyy I didn't say it was perfect, just better than D&d...

 

AS to minatures, i like them to add a bit of focus and to stop tactical arguements but my group find once we our varios laptops, my screen, 2 chip bowls, assorted coke , raspberry botttles, glasses for said fizzy drinks, bowls of lollies, my bowl of gerkins, piles of dice, rule books, my materials, more dice not even for the game, and elbows....there is no room left on the table....

[Curufea]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

I know there are lots of more structured discussions on this post but for more, I just can't get over my hatred of

 

Hit Points (come on - fall 30 feet, dust yourself off and fight again)

 

Combat (boring, effort in subtraction, and fight until you nearly dead with no side effects)

 

Levels - ugh.....

 

You left out one of my major hates (in addition to the ones you've just mentioned -

Classes

 

"We force you to play archetypes in the belief it makes the game enjoyable, but in reality makes our module design easier because we don't have to think about possibilities - we know that all nth level classes are exactly the same only differing slightly in magic items, and maybe 1 or 2 feats different."

[ghost-angel]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

You left out one of my major hates (in addition to the ones you've just mentioned -

Classes

 

"We force you to play archetypes in the belief it makes the game enjoyable, but in reality makes our module design easier because we don't have to think about possibilities - we know that all nth level classes are exactly the same only differing slightly in magic items, and maybe 1 or 2 feats different."

Amen to that. Classes (OCCs, I don't care WHAT you call 'em) are the stupidest idea to hit gaming.

 

It's like putting butterfly wings on an elephant - might look cool but utterly useless in the end.

[i3ullseye]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

No, actually classes aren't a totally bad idea.

 

First, it is where almost all gaming started. Each had class structures. Very few mainstream games broke form this idea for a long time. It is used in computer games also. Why? It is the structure. It cuts down on the work of creation.

 

And one beautiful thing it does is prevent a character form gimping themselves. We have all seen it... new player to the HERO system, a pool of points, a glint in their eye, and an idea. It is beautiful to see. But then they go and dump alm ost all their points on that super cool power they want, and guess what? Every other encounter obliterates them.

 

Experience has taught the rest of us to be wiser, but without knowing the rules well, or how they interact on a regular basis, we are flying blind. Leaving your Dex and Int and Ego at 10 because you are just super strong... well, you are in for a rough ride.

 

Classes prevent people form breaking themselves at creation, and that in and of itself goes a long way toward making those games enjoyable and easy to learn. It is not what i prefer mind you, nor any of us here i would assume. But it is an easy entry into the world of gaming, and a tool to keep games much simpler on the character creation side.

 

It is easier to balance a session against known classes with known abilities. Factoring in HERO characters, and tailoring things to them, is MUCH harder I think, but also much more rewarding. But classes serve a real constructive purpose here.

 

In computer gaming it reduces the massive amount of code neccessary for everyone to have access to anything. It makes sure that group dynamics can be enforced in both computer AND table top gaming. If that warrior can also pick a lock and read scrolls... why does he need the rogue or wizard again?

 

Now in HERO we have our ways of dealing with these issues. I prevent skill crossover form happening too rampantly in my games, and sometimes I tell players they have a certain amount of their points for Stats, another amount for Skills, etc... and have them try to build within a set balanced structure when they are starting out.

 

But this is all stuff we do because we DON'T have classes. In a class based system most of this is not neccessary.

[Lucius]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

No, actually classes aren't a totally bad idea.

 

First, it is where almost all gaming started. Each had class structures. Very few mainstream games broke form this idea for a long time. .

 

If I recall correctly, wasn't Runequest one of the very first RPGs after D&D and Tunnels and Trolls?

 

Runequest doesn't have classes. Althought it does have cults.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

None of them have palindromedaries.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

I know there are lots of more structured discussions on this post but for more, I just can't get over my hatred of

 

Hit Points (come on - fall 30 feet, dust yourself off and fight again)

 

Hit points, including the idea of gaining more as you level up, work a whole lot better if you think of them as a metagame resource that you spend to protect yourself from damage.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Good morning.

 

Chris: Excellent point, I hadn't thought of it that way. I consider it a factor of 'survivability' and never actually ascribed it as "health." That's why PCs discuss their health in terms of percentages as opposed to raw numbers; "I'm down 10" not only breaks continuity, but doesn't really mean much for the 10th level Paladin.

 

i3ullseye: I've got two separate opinions to your post, because as usual, your local moderate looks at a thing and tries to find a balance for it. Classes are not, as you say, a totally bad idea. They started off as a decent premise and were then taken to their logical conclusion; i.e., pure structure, no manueverability. This is why I had to institute a rule in my d20 campaign; in the event a Splat book is released that actually has something that fits or works with your character, or introduces a PrC that makes perfect sense, we will revise your character to accomodate it. Why? Because I don't feel like penalizing people for something they couldn't have known about.

 

I think classes, as a tool, and I want to reinforce that idea, are fantastic. I've been reading Steve's Fantasy Hero and I'm really getting my brain wrapped around how the system works, although I'm totally lost on what "30 pts. of Magic" means for anyone yet, but I still haven't a) finished the book and don't have FREd yet. Within FH he covers two basic concepts; Race, and Class, and he tackles both of them in such a way that makes absolute and total sense to me.

 

Further, I know that I have the capacity, with an eraser and a little brain power, to do the math and come up with something different. Unlike d20, I'm not beholden to any core race that he designed; I can take the ideas he set up, and using them (and the rules, which are consistent, thank G-d) as a guidepost, create whatever I please. The section right after that is, you guessed it, Class package deals.

 

The difference between HERO & d20 becomes immediately apparant; here are a half dozen ways to interpret "Wizard." Go nuts. The only thing the package really dictated was a point buy for pre-built abilities and pre-deducted disads, all built in to itself, which saves the player points. Add to that the leftover points after selecting a base race and class, and possibly a local packet (Academy Graduate, City Dweller, etc.) and all of a sudden you've taken giant leaps towards defining your experience, all within the boundaries of HERO, and - here's the kicker - with the ability to deviate at any time.

 

d20 doesn't let you do that. If you want to improve at something in HERO, you burn points. You want your Wizard to start tanking? Get the right protect spells and buy up CVs in staff combat. I actually have an NPC who follows a build that I can't get quite right in d20 because of the class system, and she works in spite of it. But I keep having to make these wacked out sacrifices, while front-loading her with abilities she doesn't need because they were granted by one of her base classes (I can't go into too much detail, I have players who read the board, those gits).

 

But to you see where I'm going here? Classes, properly used, are a wonderful guide, but shouldn't define your entire experience. That's why when people complain about players who plan out 20 levels, I get aggravated, because the PC has simply glommed onto the very mechanic that d20 provides; these things will happen in this order so long as you gain levels. Therefore, planning is the only way to truly break through. And while PrCs may have originally been 'specializations' that required all sorts of DM permissions, these days it's as much an outgrowth of what the player wants to do. PrCs are almost (note: almost) an extension of a HERO concept; you have the prereqs, go this way. Who am I to stop them unless the choice is just unbalancing?

 

Now there was one other thing you said that I take issue with:

 

Originally Posted by i3ullseye

And one beautiful thing it does is prevent a character form gimping themselves. We have all seen it... new player to the HERO system, a pool of points, a glint in their eye, and an idea. It is beautiful to see. But then they go and dump alm ost all their points on that super cool power they want, and guess what? Every other encounter obliterates them.

 

Two things, really. First, if you've never seen someone build a useless d20 character, I'm stunned. I've seen it more times than I've seen a clean build. A poor feat selection here, a bad skill choice there, it's astonishing how badly someone can screw up a fail safe system. And that's as much the fault of the DM (me!) as it is the player. I can't rightly blame the system, but then you get all the hard core screaming "Hey, you're power gaming!" Are they power gaming, or are they just building a character that isn't useless?

 

mayapuppies said something about HERO that's stuck with me - it may even be on this thread. Simply, they can build out a really, really interesting 150 pt. character that can't do diddly in combat; and I can build a 50 pt. Combat Monster that can mop the floor with them. You can dig the same grave in d20; it's on the DM to make sure that the glint in a player's eye isn't permanently dimmed by distress looking at the mess their sheet has become.

 

If that means sticking them with more packages early on and letting them get their feet wet before saying "Here's 125 points, go nuts!" Again, a class package acts as a wonderful tool (and a way to save some points if it has disads). But in both cases, the DM needs to know the system well enough (or have a member of Rules Lawyer Union 858 available) to guide those players through the creation process.

 

My morning thoughts on the matter.

[Steve]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

The good thing about starting with lower point value characters (such as 50+50 or 75+75) is that it gives you a feel for the system and its possibilities without being as overwhelming as coming up with a 200+150 superhero can be. Once the basics are grasped by a player, how CV is determined by DEX, how defenses and attack powers work, etc, I've seen the light go on in their eyes, and this same player can go on to create some really interesting concepts using the points available to them, however many they are given. It's good until then to work with the system using training wheels like packages, since those are just a way of saying "Using Hero, this is what a typical warrior (wizard, thief, etc) should have in characteristics or know how to do. Experience can then be used to modify that initial somewhat vanilla package to go off into areas that round out the character.

 

Example: the character starts off simply, taking the Elf racial package and the Light Warrior package (26 points + 82 points) for 108 points. The remaining 42 points on a 150 point character can then be used to customize a bit, adding some to characteristics and maybe picking up some more skills or maybe a talent or two. The character is done in a relatively short amount of time than if someone just tried to spend 150 points cold. Later on, maybe the character starts branching out from being a warrior and starts taking Interaction skills, boosting PRE, acquiring Contacts, etc. This character is becoming a fighting diplomat. Or maybe the character starts studying a martial art like kung fu, picking up maneuvers from the party's monk or from an NPC teacher. It's a kung fu elf now. But this sort of growth is done more organically and gradually than a level and class-based system does it. I find this abilitiy of Hero to be one of its more satisfying aspects as far as character growth and change goes.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Steve - that's pretty much exactly where I hope to go; start here. Go wherever you want. I want them to have the option of saving up so if they want to tack on additional packet, they can do that. It also allows me to build "PrC" type structures that work within the confines of the campaign without, as someone else had said earlier, trying to play d20.

 

As I said, i3ullseye has an excellent point; classes aren't all bad, but I want to use them as a spring board for a beginning, not the entire road map.

 

Can someone tell me exactly how powerful (or not) 30 points of magic actually is? Is there a huge difference between 30 & 40? I have no point of reference.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

No' date=' actually classes aren't a totally bad idea.[/quote']

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

I don't like being told HOW to create, that's what Classes do.

 

Classes are one of the main reasons I almost quite role playing completely and entirely 11 years ago. I really hate them.

 

Classes are, in my opinion, the absolute WORST thing in a game system to a point where I won't even crack open a book if it has classes in the system. I'd rather not play.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

It's basically saying 30 points worth of spells. As with everything in HERO the points value isn't a basis of power.

 

Examples:

Alzaron's Turnabout Tactic: Missile Deflection (Any Ranged Attack), Missile Reflection, Reflect At Any Target (50 Active Points); Limited Power Spell will only reflect magical attacks, not mundane missile weapons (-1) [Notes: This spell has caused many a wizard to rue the day he attacked a mage who knows it. This spell gives the caster the power to absorb magical ranged attacks and launch them back at the one who used them, or even at someone else. Less experienced mages are limited to simply absorbing the energy of the spell and reflecting it back as is; masters can absorb the energy and convert it to some other form (such as converting a flame spell to an ice spell or a wind spell).]

 

Age: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, , Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; +1/4), Difficult To Dispel (x2 Active Points; +1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (37 Active Points); Limited Power No effect on materials that do not age (-1/4), Limited Power No effect on life forms (-1/4) [Notes: This spell causes materials within the target hex to suffer the effects of rapid aging, becoming weaker and often crumbling into dust on contact. This spell has no effect on life forms, or materials that withstand aging well, such as ice and gem stones. Multiple applications of this spell will ruin most objects.]

Both spells have a real cost of 25 points. One is an attack one isn't.

 

BTW: Not my spells, got them from the Ultimate Grimoire

[Steve]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Can someone tell me exactly how powerful (or not) 30 points of magic actually is? Is there a huge difference between 30 & 40? I have no point of reference.

 

Well, it all depends on the magic system used actually, since those are real points, and one campaign's version of real points is not the same as anothers. Those 30 points represent 1/5 of a 150 point character though. It's a major part of their concept.

 

You might want to take a look through the magic systems chapter on page 220 and the example systems on 261 of Fantasy Hero to see how those thirty points can be spent.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

I haven't gotten that far yet, I'm still on Class Package Deals. However...

 

(wait for it)

 

MY COPY OF FREd CAME TODAY! I WILL HAVE IT FOR THANKSGIVING!! HUZZAH!

 

(And the men cheered, the women swooned, the children waved multi-colored banners and the band played appropriate music)

[Susano]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

I haven't gotten that far yet, I'm still on Class Package Deals. However...

 

(wait for it)

 

MY COPY OF FREd CAME TODAY! I WILL HAVE IT FOR THANKSGIVING!! HUZZAH!

 

(And the men cheered, the women swooned, the children waved multi-colored banners and the band played appropriate music)

 

HUZZAH!!!

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Yeah, it does feel pretty good. Monday I can actually discuss rules I've read in their proper format. Oh, susano, meant to thank you for your excellent post in this thread that led me to a breakdown of the revisions from 4 to 5. Some of the stuff went right past me, but I caught the gist of a lot it. The author seemed generally pleased with the material, with some gripes. Huge, huge help, really.

 

Thanks again.

[Susano]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

... Oh' date=' [b']susano[/b], meant to thank you for your excellent post in this thread that led me to a breakdown of the revisions from 4 to 5. Some of the stuff went right past me, but I caught the gist of a lot it. The author seemed generally pleased with the material, with some gripes. Huge, huge help, really.

 

That wasn't me, that was Lord Liaden.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Curses! Thought it was, really. Mea culpa, and apologies to Lord Liaden. Now to build a Paladin class packet that works for me. And a spell system. That's the kicker. Gonna have a LOT of questions on Monday.

[Steve]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Fantasy Hero gives a large number of options for designing a magic system from the ground up, based on how you (as GM) want magic to work, and reasons why you might use one option over another as well as advantages and drawbacks. And once you've digested how to do a magic system, the example spell systems a little later on in the book show how to put it into practice. Several of them are really quite clever.

[Markdoc]

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

 

Can someone tell me exactly how powerful (or not) 30 points of magic actually is? Is there a huge difference between 30 & 40? I have no point of reference.

 

In terms of raw power, 30 points of magic (active points, not real cost) is about the same as a 2 handed sword or a longbow in the hands of somebody strong. In other words, hit somebody with 30 points and if they lack any sort of protection, they're gonna be smarting some (at least...). But it's not overwhelming at the instant-kill level. 40 points is merely 25% more powerful, so there's no huge difference.

 

However, 30 points of magic is way more flexible than a two handed sword. It's enough for pretty decent flight, for basic invisibility, for illusions powerful enough to fool someone (but not enough to inflict damage), to entangle someone in spider webs so that only a Conan-type can shrug it off. To put it in DandD terms, you can do a fair number (but not all) 2nd-3rd level spells with 30-45 points.

 

cheers, Mark