Learning how to play HERO

[kjamma4]

There is really no point to this thread other than an observation on my own personal experience, especially as to how it relates to the "ease" of learning HERO.

 

When D&D 3.0 first came out, I bought the core books. I had been playing D&D and other roleplaying games for many years so I was not new to the hobby. However, it did take a while for my group to get up to speed on the game as all of us were new to that specific edition. The players were learning as the DM was learning. I recall reading the Player's Handbook through a few times and remember Attacks of Opportunity causing a few rereads.

 

I played HERO for the first time at GenCon 2005 and the game had two experienced players and an experienced GM. It was pretty simple to learn the core mechanics with their help. Following GenCon, I joined a regular group run by one of the players at GenCon. With an experienced game master, I have learned alot more of the game. When I reread the rules of HERO, they make perfect sense, especially those that I have experienced through gaming.

 

For my particular case, it was actually harder to learn the D20 rules of D&D 3.0 sufficient enough to play than it was to get the same understanding in HERO. Of course it is impossible to say whether that would have been the case had I had to learn the HERO rules "on my own" or if I would have been "taught" the D20 rules. However, I have seen my own kids learn both D20 and HERO by being "taught" and I don't see much of a difference.

 

I guess my point is that I don't completely agree with those people who say that the HERO system has a steep learning curve (and I will admit that ANY game is easier to learn when shown how to play as opposed to self taught).

 

Also, based upon my limited experience, it would be much easier to learn the HERO system once in order to play a plethora of genres than to learn a variety of "easier" systems to play those same genres.

 

P.S. One of the guys in our regular group in now clamoring for me to run another Delta Green adventure, but this time using HERO rules. He has stated that now that he knows the HERO rules, he will be a better player than he was before (since when we played, he was new to the CoC rules.)

 

P.P.S. Tonight, we're playing in a Fantasy HERO game run by the same guy. The adventure is the old D&D module from the Giants series (the fire giants one) adapted to HERO

 

P.P.P.S. Does this make us converts?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Learning how to play HERO

 

Yes, I think it makes you converts. Possibly evangelical ones

 

I do agree with you: Hero's core system is very simple, once you are actualluy in and running a game: it is getting to that point that is more complex: whereas most games walk you through character creation one step at a time, Hero gives you the whole lot and you just have to build whatever comes. Whilst I don't think even the character creation process can properly be considered 'complex' it CAN be daunting.

 

I think Hero could do with a few 'pick up and play' downloadable intros. Mind you I've been playing for so long, I'm not sure what new players want or what they find difficult: what is your experience?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Learning how to play HERO

 

When DnD 3 came out I picked it up as I wanted to join a group of friends in gaming and that's what the GM played. It had more exceptions to the rules than the rules themselves - it's like learning English Grammar, the only rule you can count on is that there are no set rules.

 

HERO, even with Fifth's plethora of minutae, is about 400x simpler to catch the basics of than D20 ever will be. It's only when you start getting into complex points of HERO (such as VPPs, and the other frameworks, and the finer points of things like Transform) that it gets a bit sticky.

 

Anyways, Kjamma4 you are a welcome convert.

[Troll]

Re: Learning how to play HERO

 

Well DnD does have the advantage of having an online course you can take through Barnes and Noble on how to play the game.

http://educate.barnesandnoble.com/educate/bn/home/catalog/overview.jsp?productId=50689&src=fark

Maybe Hero could set something like that up?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Learning how to play HERO

 

If I have to take a class to learn an RPG the designers screwed up. Big Time.

[Lemurion]

Re: Learning how to play HERO

 

I agree, Hero is easy to play. IF you come to the system as a player, with a GM or group who knows it. "Roll three dice, you want to roll low." It's easy to say and easy to do-- with the bonus that everyone gets it.

 

All of the real work (which I'm avoiding right now) comes when it's time to build the characters and develop the enemies. If you just pick up the book and start reading, it's real work, but once you understand the underlying mechanics it becomes very simple.

 

Hero just works.

[Lucius]

Learning how to play HERO

 

I think the real problem isn't in play; the complexity comes in character design.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Insert palindromedary tagline here

[kjamma4]

Re: Learning how to play HERO

 

I think Hero could do with a few 'pick up and play' downloadable intros. Mind you I've been playing for so long' date=' I'm not sure what new players want or what they find difficult: what is your experience?[/quote']

 

I recall reading a thread about a combat example (I believe it was a Champions example with one character named White Mouse?). I found this very helpful. I think more examples like that using different genres would benefit new players. Perhaps an example of a VPP in action.

 

I generally game on a once-weekly basis and I came to HERO after a year of playing D&D 3.5 about 85% of the time. I find that associating HERO rules to equivalent D&D rules helps me grasp the concepts. I don't think that would work for every new player however.

 

Perhaps an easy "tutorial" would be to start out with a character with 10s in every stat. Run a combat between two of those characters to get the basics in. Then, give the characters the same amount of points but distribute them differently and then have another combat showing how one build does one thing and another build does another thing.

[kjamma4]

Re: Learning how to play HERO

 

I think the real problem isn't in play; the complexity comes in character design.

 

The nice thing about that is you get a character that is not a "cookie cutter" duplicate of every other character. A nice trade off in my mind.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Learning how to play HERO

 

I am in definite agreement with the character creation being the daunting part of the Hero system. I have played with a number of people new to the Hero system who inevitably pick it up quickly and like the flexibility, until it comes time to actually design a character from scratch. But you can't have a rich, flexible system without a little complexity.

 

The advantage of the Hero system, in my mind, is that once you do have a grasp on how most of the powers and advantages work, you can do anything. For other systems I have played, every new thing you want to do requires a new rule or new spell or some handwaving GM fiat, which is ad hoc and requires a lot a rote memorization of how each little thing is done, and in the end may not be very well balanced.

 

A second advantage is that once you are comfortable with character creation, that is a fun part of the game too. Making characters in other systems was just praying over dice rolls for a character that ultimately would not be substantially different from any other character of the same type. But with Hero, every character can be unique, and the creation process encourages making a character with real depth (what skills should he have, what Disads, etc.).

 

I will never go back.

 

__________________________________________________________

"I don't want to stop crime. I just want to fight it." - Tick

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Learning how to play HERO

 

I am in definite agreement with the character creation being the daunting part of the Hero system. I have played with a number of people new to the Hero system who inevitably pick it up quickly and like the flexibility' date=' until it comes time to actually design a character from scratch. But you can't have a rich, flexible system without a little complexity.[/quote']As an aside, it's worth noting that almost all of the HERO System's much-maligned-math occurs in character creation too. Gamers who balk at Hero's math might rest a little easier if they understood that the majority of the math happens only when making characters. During play, Hero is no more math-intensive than any number of other game systems...

[prestidigitator]

Re: Learning how to play HERO

 

One of the biggest problems with D&D is that it doesn't--and never has--approach things as if it were a complete system. Hero at least attempts to put all the mechanics in one place, with reasonably clear meta-rules that fill in well where it misses the mark.

 

Where Hero has a (meta-)system that allows every new supplement to contribute useful source material, including new Skills, abilities, spells, etc., every new D&D Skill, Feat, spell, or other ability contributes directly to the system itself, and there is very little meta-system backing it up. This makes it nearly impossible to keep the whole system in mind for source material development, GMing, or even character creation.

 

So while the Hero rulebook is thick, once you capture its contents in a reasonable fashion the rest will never blow your understanding out of the water like a single new D&D Feat or spell might. As far as basic system mechanics, Hero has about the same complexity as D&D, or is debatably a little simpler. Where Powers are concerned, D&D doesn't even have the equivalent, so Hero is infinitely simpler. Where classes (and prestige classes, etc., and even races) are concerned, Hero basically doesn't need them so yet again it is infinitely simpler.

 

I believe Hero is a much easier system to learn and use. It is just a more tedious system to put into practice, since less is pre-packaged for you. That can hurt the enthusiasm of players and GMs alike (I'll admit to suffering from it at times). EDIT: This is being aided by the continual increase in source material and other supplements, but it is a lot more gradual than D&D and D20 in general, and the perception remains in any case.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Learning how to play HERO

 

One of the biggest problems with D&D is that it doesn't--and never has--approach things as if it were a complete system. Hero at least attempts to put all the mechanics in one place, with reasonably clear meta-rules that fill in well where it misses the mark.

 

.......................

 

To be fair, I think the latest version of DnD is far more coherent than it was in earlier editions.

 

I strongly suspect someone sat down and read through HERO before overhauling it

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Learning how to play HERO

 

I recall reading a thread about a combat example (I believe it was a Champions example with one character named White Mouse?). I found this very helpful. I think more examples like that using different genres would benefit new players. Perhaps an example of a VPP in action.

 

The combat example thread was probably this one. It features both superheroic and heroic (fantasy) examples. I also highly recommend this thread for step-by-step character generation.

 

I've referred many HERO newbies to these threads over the years, and most have said that they were very helpful. The primary tutorial author on both of them, Pattern Ghost, deserves a lot of credit and thanks for composing them.

[kjamma4]

Re: Learning how to play HERO

 

The combat example thread was probably this one. It features both superheroic and heroic (fantasy) examples. I also highly recommend this thread for step-by-step character generation.

 

I've referred many HERO newbies to these threads over the years, and most have said that they were very helpful. The primary tutorial author on both of them, Pattern Ghost, deserves a lot of credit and thanks for composing them.

 

That's the one. I think it would be helpful if those were "stickied".

[hancock.tom]

Re: Learning how to play HERO

 

Honestly, the only thing about HERO that really scares new people is the limit/adder fractional math stuff.

 

Does anyone know of a chart of some sort that would do that math for you?

 

I think most D&D'ers and gamers in general, while mildly scared of math, typically love charts full of numbers.

 

A chart with active point costs down the left edge (5, 10, 15, 20) and modifiers across the top edge (-1/4, -1/2, -3/4) could do a lot to make new hero people less scared.

[Springald Jack]

Re: Learning how to play HERO

 

I will say that HERO is one of two systems I didn't "get" the first time I tried to read it. The other is Continuum, the orginazation of which could have been improved by putting topics in random order.

 

When I did "get" it I found that it was pretty comprable to other high-detail systems.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Learning how to play HERO

 

Honestly, the only thing about HERO that really scares new people is the limit/adder fractional math stuff.

 

Does anyone know of a chart of some sort that would do that math for you?

 

I think most D&D'ers and gamers in general, while mildly scared of math, typically love charts full of numbers.

 

A chart with active point costs down the left edge (5, 10, 15, 20) and modifiers across the top edge (-1/4, -1/2, -3/4) could do a lot to make new hero people less scared.

 

Doesn't Fifth Edition Revised have such a chart? Say page 279. It is exactly opposite of how you described it, with the five point increments along the top and the modifiers along the edge, but there you go.

[hancock.tom]

Re: Learning how to play HERO

 

Doesn't Fifth Edition Revised have such a chart? Say page 279. It is exactly opposite of how you described it' date=' with the five point increments along the top and the modifiers along the edge, but there you go.[/quote']

 

It probably does. I haven't got around to purchasing 5th rev. yet.

 

This is definitely a chart that should go into any future printings of sidekick, even if its just a laser-printed sheet stuffed into the back of the book by hand.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Learning how to play HERO

 

Honestly, the only thing about HERO that really scares new people is the limit/adder fractional math stuff.

 

Does anyone know of a chart of some sort that would do that math for you?

 

I think most D&D'ers and gamers in general, while mildly scared of math, typically love charts full of numbers.

 

A chart with active point costs down the left edge (5, 10, 15, 20) and modifiers across the top edge (-1/4, -1/2, -3/4) could do a lot to make new hero people less scared.

 

Got just the thing for you, courtesy of our generous colleague, TheEmerged:

 

http://theemerged.blogspot.com/HeroCost.htm

[hancock.tom]

Re: Learning how to play HERO

 

Excellent!

 

Now I can move my calculator back where it belongs, off my HERO shelf.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Learning how to play HERO

 

To be fair, I think the latest version of DnD is far more coherent than it was in earlier editions.

 

I strongly suspect someone sat down and read through HERO before overhauling it

Oh yes. As far as the basic Ability/Attack/Skill system goes I agree completely. Even a lot of the Feats and commonality between the spells smacks of influence from Hero. I thought that as soon as I first picked up a 3rd ed. publication. However, they still miss the mark significantly by not providing a (reasonably) complete set of building blocks from which to construct all the specific elements. And the whole class/level system is way, way, waaay outdated and needed to be thrown out in whole. They did a little fix (obviously with a lot of effort behind it) for multi-classing, but it is still a big unnecessary kludge.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Learning how to play HERO

 

Honestly, the only thing about HERO that really scares new people is the limit/adder fractional math stuff.

 

Does anyone know of a chart of some sort that would do that math for you?

 

I think most D&D'ers and gamers in general, while mildly scared of math, typically love charts full of numbers.

 

A chart with active point costs down the left edge (5, 10, 15, 20) and modifiers across the top edge (-1/4, -1/2, -3/4) could do a lot to make new hero people less scared.

It's in 5ER. I'm at work so can't get a page number but I believe is the begining of the Advantages section of the book.

[zornwil]

Re: Learning how to play HERO

 

Kjamma4, I completely agree. I found Champions much more straight-forward and easy to learn than AD&D, back in those days, and when I picked up M&M (the first edition), a heavily bastardized d20 variant, I found it more difficult in many ways to learn than HERO, because it lacks that level of coherency/consistency. I think we're in a minority, but I will point out I learned D&D then AD&D before Champions, and the former two never really clicked to me, whereas Champions made perfect sense. Naturally, both games have changed a lot, but i think the same still holds essentially true. Looking at GURPS recently, I'm blown away by how much more complex that game is with its level of nuance that isn't clearly rationalized compared to HERO.

[zornwil]

Re: Learning how to play HERO

 

It's in 5ER. I'm at work so can't get a page number but I believe is the begining of the Advantages section of the book.

Shame on you, buy the PDF!

 

Page 279 in 5ER (not in 5th), "Advantages and Limitations Calculations Tables."

 

It only goes by 5s. Somebody, perhaps Derek Heimforth?, on these boards did one that shows the calculation for EACH point, I have it linked at home, but not here, maybe somebody else knows where it is?