Superman's current STR: 365+?

[megaplayboy]

According to wikipedia, the new comic All Star Superman has an ish where Supes' strength is tested, and they find that he can resist stresses of 200 quintillion tons! And apparently they hadn't quite found his upper limit yet...

 

Planet-mover Supes is back.

 

So...if his STR is in the 360-400 range, what's his CON, PD, REC?

 

If he pulls his punch and hits a normal with "casual STR"(36+ dice), they'd still be rendered into a fine pink mist...

[Chuckg]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

All-Star Superman is not in mainstream DCU continuity, IIRC.

 

And isn't there a rule saying that you never have to attack with your full d6 pool unless you bought the 'Beam' or 'Must Attack At Full Strength' limitation?

[Trained Chicken]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

In the old Mayfair DC Heroes game (which I will always use as a reference- it was a really solid book), they have Superman as STR 25, which translates to a HERO system strength of 125. This was pre-Zero Hour, but I think it's still about right.

[OddHat]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

Supes strength is always "What the story requires".

 

When I first read Superman comics in ancient days, he was building new Earths in seven minutes. Throwing around worlds or blowing out suns was nothing. He also had Superman Robots and a Kryptonian city in a bottle.

 

He might possibly have been just a little overpowered for some stories.

[Chuckg]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

I once saw somebody propose that Superman be given STR 60... and then a 120 point Cosmic VPP, "Because He's Superman, That's Why".

[megaplayboy]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

All-Star Superman is not in mainstream DCU continuity, IIRC.

 

And isn't there a rule saying that you never have to attack with your full d6 pool unless you bought the 'Beam' or 'Must Attack At Full Strength' limitation?

Perhaps not, but then, the "Our Worlds At War" story had Supes supercharging himself by flying into the sun, then moving a planet.

 

Yes, you don't have to use all your dice--in this case, It would be Supes throwing perhaps a tenth of his dice pool, and pulling it!

[megaplayboy]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

I once saw somebody propose that Superman be given STR 60... and then a 120 point Cosmic VPP' date=' "Because He's [b']Superman[/b], That's Why".

He's just played by the guy who started when Champs came out, 24 years ago, gamed with the same character 2x/week, and now typically has several hundred unspent xp at any given time

[Greywind]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

Actually, on a clean translation Superman would have 250 STR. You only get the 125 when you use the conversion charts that appeared in AC. There are times that you'd actually get a lower value using the high-end charts as opposed to the low-end charts. Granted that the score needed to be on the low end of needing the high-end charts, but still, logic dictates that a person with a high score, would maintain a higher score, irregardless of the mechanics used to convert the scores.

[Chuckg]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

Perhaps not' date=' but then, the "Our Worlds At War" story had Supes supercharging himself by flying into the sun, then moving a planet.[/quote']

 

"Our Worlds At War" is infamous for portraying Supes' abilities at a level that is not consistent with 99.9+% of the DC comics published since the Crisis on Infinite Earths.

 

(It's also infamous for sucking in about every way that a comics arc /can/ suck, but that's neither here nor there.)

[OddHat]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

I once saw somebody propose that Superman be given STR 60... and then a 120 point Cosmic VPP' date=' "Because He's [b']Superman[/b], That's Why".

 

Hmm. Might not be a bad idea.

 

I've said it before, but Supernova from Galactic Champions isn't a bad high silver age Superman tribute. Just tweak the disads and you're ready to go. Viperia isn't a bad magic-powered Supergirl either.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

"Our Worlds At War" is infamous for portraying Supes' abilities at a level that is not consistent with 99.9+% of the DC comics published since the Crisis on Infinite Earths.

 

(It's also infamous for sucking in about every way that a comics arc /can/ suck, but that's neither here nor there.)

Well, the last time I saw a "Who's who" entry for Supes, it said he was at least capable of lifting the largest man-made structure, the Great Pyramid(about 2.5 million tons, IIRC)--about STR 135 or so. Some issues in the past few years have had him lifting mountain-sized objects, which would suggest a STR north of 150.

 

Byrne had him struggling with 80 tons on the ground, but invented some doubletalk thing about his TK-based flight extending to large objects while flying, explaining his ability to lift massive objects.

 

So, he can lift somewhere between an MBT and a neutron star;)

[Chuckg]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

Well, the largest *consistent* feats of his that I know of are teaming up with Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, and (for one of them, but not the other one of them) J'onn J'onnz and Captain Marvel to put a tow cable on the moon and haul it (quickly!) out of orbit.

 

Twice.

 

Under two separate writers in two separate story arcs several years apart.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

To me, a non-Golden Age Superman's STR is 120 (or +20 over the strength of the next strongest character in the universe*, whichever is lower).

 

Then you add extra STR (or whatever's required by the era), with the limitations No figured Characteristics, and only for Lifting/Pushing/Pulling. Modern era is +50, Silver Age is +200+.

 

That gives you a Superman that's at the top of the campaign niche but not obscenely so, gives you a workable combat stats but still allows him access to his non-combat feats.

 

*Captain Marvel is immune to this rule.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

Well, the largest *consistent* feats of his that I know of are teaming up with Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, and (for one of them, but not the other one of them) J'onn J'onnz and Captain Marvel to put a tow cable on the moon and haul it (quickly!) out of orbit.

 

Twice.

 

Under two separate writers in two separate story arcs several years apart.

Well, if you use The Ultimate Brick optional rules, that'd put him somewhere around 150 or so, because you need about 190-200 STR to move the Earth, and about 155-165 to move the moon,IIRC.

 

The old DC Heroes 1st ed. pre-crisis supes, with his 250-equivalent STR, could "with a really really really good roll" lift a solar mass--and with TUB's optional rule, a 250 STR would do the trick in Hero system, as well.

 

Can't really think of anything bigger than a neutron star that could be "lifted", offhand.

[Chuckg]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

STR 150 sounds nice and even.

 

It also gives Superman's punch the same DCs as Doctor Destroyer's Primary Attack Multipower or Takofanes' VPP, which means that (by coincidence or otherwise) it benchmarks nicely right alongside the other 'absolute top-end smashdowns in the Non-Cosmic-Space-God weight class' statted out in Champions.

[Gary]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

A quickie conversion, without the skills.

 

150	Str	140
50	Dex	120
75	Con	130
20	Body	20
18	Int	8
18	Ego	16		
30	Pre	20
16	Com	3
30	PD	0
30	ED	15
12	SPD	60
45	Rec	0
150	End	0
133	Stun	0
	532

180	3/4 DR Physical, Energy, and Mental
30	30 PD 30 ED Damage Resistance

75	VPP
59	Control Limited Class of Powers(-1/4) 
               Change as 0 phase action
23	Power Skill 23-

50	Full Life Support	
30	Power Defense 30 pts
5	Mental Defense 9 pts
4	Martial Strike
3	Martial Throw
3	Martial Grab
3	Breakfall 14-
3	Acrobatics 14-

Characterstics cost 532
Powers cost           468

Total cost             1000

[megaplayboy]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

Not bad, though I generally don't care for giving him 75% reduction--if you don't understand why, try having "anti-Superman" hit supes with a pushed haymaker out of combat--126 STUN x2= 252 STUN, -30, 222 STUN, divide by 4, Supes takes 55 STUN from a noncombat surprise, pushed haymaker thrown by his equal and opposite number--and isn't even stunned!

 

At a bare minimum, in my book, Supes(or an equivalent opponent) has to be capable of stunning himself with a pushed haymaker out of combat. So he can't have more than half reduction.

Even Dr. D. could be stunned OOC by his own attack...

[name_tamer]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

Not bad, though I generally don't care for giving him 75% reduction--if you don't understand why, try having "anti-Superman" hit supes with a pushed haymaker out of combat--126 STUN x2= 252 STUN, -30, 222 STUN, divide by 4, Supes takes 55 STUN from a noncombat surprise, pushed haymaker thrown by his equal and opposite number--and isn't even stunned!

 

At a bare minimum, in my book, Supes(or an equivalent opponent) has to be capable of stunning himself with a pushed haymaker out of combat. So he can't have more than half reduction.

Even Dr. D. could be stunned OOC by his own attack...

 

An interesting benchmark. But of course, you can also make him Stunnable by reducing his CON.

[OddHat]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

Not bad, though I generally don't care for giving him 75% reduction--if you don't understand why, try having "anti-Superman" hit supes with a pushed haymaker out of combat--126 STUN x2= 252 STUN, -30, 222 STUN, divide by 4, Supes takes 55 STUN from a noncombat surprise, pushed haymaker thrown by his equal and opposite number--and isn't even stunned!

 

At a bare minimum, in my book, Supes(or an equivalent opponent) has to be capable of stunning himself with a pushed haymaker out of combat. So he can't have more than half reduction.

Even Dr. D. could be stunned OOC by his own attack...

 

Good call. I sometimes think about this when designing monsters. Can Monster A, given reasonable time and luck, kill another member of his own species? If the answer is no, I up the attacks or drop the defenses.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

A quickie conversion, without the skills.

 

150	Str	140
50	Dex	120
75	Con	130
20	Body	20
18	Int	8
18	Ego	16		
30	Pre	20
16	Com	3
30	PD	0
30	ED	15
12	SPD	60
45	Rec	0
150	End	0
133	Stun	0
	532

180	3/4 DR Physical, Energy, and Mental
30	30 PD 30 ED Damage Resistance

75	VPP
59	Control Limited Class of Powers(-1/4) 
               Change as 0 phase action
23	Power Skill 23-

50	Full Life Support	
30	Power Defense 30 pts
5	Mental Defense 9 pts
4	Martial Strike
3	Martial Throw
3	Martial Grab
3	Breakfall 14-
3	Acrobatics 14-

Characterstics cost 532
Powers cost           468

Total cost             1000

 

OK. I know Superman is the pinnacle of his particular archetype, but I would never see giving him a 50 DEX and 12 SPD. 75 CON is dodgy too. Why is his DEX more than say the Flash's? They both have comporable levels of super- speed and coordination.

 

If you stat out the Flash, I would say that he is in the 29-39 range depending on what your campaign will bear for the ultimate speeedster. His SPD would be from 7-10. Superman would be in there somewhere. Thsi is post-Crisis. Before that, he had sort of a Cosmic VPP that allowed him to do whatever the writers wanted.

 

For the CON, I would say 35-45. He does get stunned and does suffer from fatigue. It takes a lot, but it does happen. The main thing to me is that his Damage Resistance is hardened with PD/ED in the 40-50 range, with some Lack of Weakness.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

I wouldn't give him a martial strike. He has never really displayed and SKILL based manuevers. It's just "I'm going to punch you with my fist, and you are going to go really, really far away."

[OddHat]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

I wouldn't give him a martial strike. He has never really displayed and SKILL based manuevers. It's just "I'm going to punch you with my fist' date=' and you are going to go really, really far away."[/quote']

 

Superman studied boxing under Mohamed Ali himself. I've still got the comic in a box somewhere.

 

[Chuckg]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

I wouldn't give him a martial strike. He has never really displayed and SKILL based manuevers. It's just "I'm going to punch you with my fist' date=' and you are going to go really, really far away."[/quote']

 

Actually, in the "JLA: Foreign Bodies" graphic novel, Superman displayed a fairly good grasp of street fighting.

 

This was when he was mindswitched into the body of a non-superpowered human (Kobra).

 

As Supes pointed out -- 'There's practice, and then there's experience.' Supes then started listing moves he'd picked up via the school of hard knocks, in fights with other superstrong opponents. ("I learned this one fighting the Parasite." "Doomsday didn't like this one either." etc, etc.)

 

Given that Superman has repeatedly slugfested vs. damn near every villainous brick in the entire DCU, I actually bought the rationale 'Supes really does know how to brawl -- vast power he has, yes, but also vast experience slugging it out with equals or near-equals in strength and durability'. Which is how *humans* learn street fighting, natch.

 

There was also that extended combat training arc he had with Mongul II, a near-Superman-class brick in his own right, and a savage alien warrior. (Basically, it was 'Something big and bad is coming, and I need to show you how to really fight, so you can whip it.' 'Why not whip it yourself?' 'I already tried, and it took me three out of three. Since you're about the only guy I know who's stronger than I am...?' 'I didn't know you cared.' 'About anyone or anything else? I still don't care. But if the cosmos gets blowed up, I get blowed up with it.')

[Chuckg]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

Ah, found it.

 

From JLA: FOREIGN BODIES:

 

Scene -- Superman (temporarily mindswitched into the body of Kobra) is hunting down Kobra (temporarily mindswitched into the body of Batman) on board the Watchtower. Superman walks into the garden deck, and as he's passing under a tree, Kobra jumps out from above him and proceeds to start wailing on him. Kobra is a master martial artist, and Supes was surprised, so he easily hits Superman about two or three times before Supes can even get his bearings, and then proceeds to put Supes in a wrestling hold from behind and start a Grab & Crush.

 

"You forget, however, that I am a master practitioner of every martial art known to man, while you are bereft of the superhuman powers you normally rely on. You know nothing of true combat -- and even less of pain!"

 

"... master practitioner... hh... there's practice, and then there's *experience*."

 

*Superman throws himself backward, smashing Kobra between him and a nearby tree while simultaneously head-butting Kobra with the back of his skull. Kobra loses his grip, caught off guard by the 'helpless' Superman actually fighting back.*

 

"That's one I learned from fighting the Parasite."

 

*Superman smashes Kobra in the gut with a double-fist*

 

"Doomsday didn't like that one either."

 

*By this point, between the shock and the hits he's taken, Kobra's Stunned... and Superman is not hanging back, he's pressing his advantage relentlessly, throwing crosses, roundhouses, you name it*

 

"And don't talk to me about pain. A few bruises are /nothing/ compared to Kryptonite!"

 

*standing over the fallen Kobra's body*

 

"... puff puff... on the other hand, I'll be glad to have my powers back when the real Batman wakes back up in that body... I'm exhausted!"

 

(add) So Supes, IMO, could justify the martial maneuvers suited for a basic Brawling / Cinematic Fisticuffs package, at least. Maybe a little streetfighting, though obviously no low blows or other 'dirty' maneuvers.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

I don't remember the issue, but I distinctly remember Supes claiming to know a form of ancient Kryptonian martial arts.

 

(Which, I don't know why, I always imagine as a form of pankration. No basis for it, just first came to mind.)