Superman's current STR: 365+?

[OddHat]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

I’ve been thinking about the single greatest flaw in the writing of Superman while flipping through my copy of Philip Wylie’s Gladiator and a bound edition of some of the early Superman stories.

 

The problem is not just his power level, though that presents challenges.

 

The problem is that modern writers forget or never knew Superman’s literary roots.

 

Superman did not start off as a paragon of virtue. He was often a thug. He used torture and the threat of torture, he killed and he threatened to kill. If we accept that Wylie’s Gladiator was partially the basis of the character Superman (along with pulp and other heroes), which seems almost certain, then in his early life Superman seriously considered becoming a criminal.

 

Superman should not be written as a man who was born a saint. Superman should be written as a man who in his own eyes has sinned, who in his youth killed men, used and abandoned women, lied and stole and engaged in petty cruelty. Superman should be written as a man who struggled to turn his back on the darkness in his own soul and seek redemption.

 

Superman is not a henpecked modern man who fights crime on his off hours. Superman is a reformed sinner on the road to Jerusalem. That is where the story is strongest, and that is how he should be written.

 

How much he can lift is just a side issue.

[MitchellS]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

I’ve been thinking about the single greatest flaw in the writing of Superman while flipping through my copy of Philip Wylie’s Gladiator and a bound edition of some of the early Superman stories.

 

The problem is not just his power level, though that presents challenges.

 

The problem is that modern writers forget or never knew Superman’s literary roots.

 

Superman did not start off as a paragon of virtue. He was often a thug. He used torture and the threat of torture, he killed and he threatened to kill. If we accept that Wylie’s Gladiator was partially the basis of the character Superman (along with pulp heroes and Arn Monroe), which seems almost certain, then in his early life Superman seriously considered becoming a criminal.

 

Superman should not be written as a man who was born a saint. Superman should be written as a man who in his own eyes has sinned, who in his youth killed men, used and abandoned women, lied and stole and engaged in petty cruelty. Superman should be written as a man who struggled to turn his back on the darkness in his own soul and seek redemption.

 

Superman is not a henpecked modern man who fights crime on his off hours. Superman is a reformed sinner on the road to Jerusalem. That is where the story is strongest, and that is how he should be written.

 

How much he can lift is just a side issue.

I think most people only take Superman's roots back to his Silver Age relaunch in '59. That was the point which redefined Superman, IMO.

[OddHat]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

I think most people only take Superman's roots back to his Silver Age relaunch in '59. That was the point which redefined Superman' date=' IMO.[/quote']

 

And that is exactly the problem.

 

Superman was not just the star of goofy stories about a boy who blows out stars (though he did become that); if that is a writer's starting point, it's that much harder to get a handle on the character and tell a story worth reading.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

Superman is a reformed sinner on the road to Jerusalem. That is where the story is strongest, and that is how he should be written.

 

How much he can lift is just a side issue.

 

"He can lift the greatest mountains with ease...but can he bear the weight of...his own conscience?"

[Wanderer]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

And that is exactly the problem.

 

Superman was not just the star of goofy stories about a boy who blows out stars (though he did become that); if that is a writer's starting point, it's that much harder to get a handle on the character and tell a story worth reading.

 

Once again, the root of all evil was the Comic Code. It was the genre's equivalent of being trapped in an abusive relationship. Without it, the genre could have directly evolved from Golden Age's tentative experimentations to somewhat like Bronze Age and then the adult complexity of Modern Age, sparing us the worst excesses of Silver Age's childish goofiness and Iron Age's adolescent indulgence.

[OddHat]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

"He can lift the greatest mountains with ease...but can he bear the weight of...his own conscience?"

 

Even good material can be screwed up by bad writing.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

I'm sorry, I gotta disagree.

Well, not with your facts (though the Wylie connection has always been unsubstantiated), but your conclusions.

I think Superman is best used as inspiration. The guy is a paragon of restraint. The best Superman stories are when he willingly refrains from exercising power. I mean, how many people could refrain from remaking the world the way they think it oughtta be? That he does not do this, yet still manages to do The Right Thing, is fascinating. I don't think he needs a sinful past to achieve this. It just makes him morally gray.

 

Admittedly, you could argue that the execution of the Phantom Zone criminals in the early re-boot stories can give you your redemption angle, but I never bought into that. I believe he did what was necessary and over-reacted to the consequences.

 

Keith "YMMV" Curtis

[Phil]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

Not to mention that it takes dramatically exponential increases in lifting capacity to double your leaping distance.

 

"I can lift 400kg and leap 8 meters!"

 

"Ha! Puny mortal! I can lift 16 times that - 6.4 tons, and leap...wtf - 16 meters?"

 

Something I house-rule. Outside of the supers genre (and even there, I don't believe it's absolute) strength does not affect leaping. After all, just look at the physiques of long and high jumpers.

[OddHat]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

I'm sorry, I gotta disagree.

Well, not with your facts (though the Wylie connection has always been unsubstantiated), but your conclusions.

I think Superman is best used as inspiration. The guy is a paragon of restraint. The best Superman stories are when he willingly refrains from exercising power. I mean, how many people could refrain from remaking the world the way they think it oughtta be? That he does not do this, yet still manages to do The Right Thing, is fascinating. I don't think he needs a sinful past to achieve this. It just makes him morally gray.

 

Admittedly, you could argue that the execution of the Phantom Zone criminals in the early re-boot stories can give you your redemption angle, but I never bought into that. I believe he did what was necessary and over-reacted to the consequences.

 

Keith "YMMV" Curtis

 

He can and should be used as inspiration; I do not want to see an angst driven Superman, let alone SuperWolverMan. However, I do not agree that writing the character with an eye to his full past make him morally gray. It makes him human. Complex, virtuous, flawed, and human. Having him guilt ridden over the execution of three homicidal maniacs is absurd; it pushes people away from empathizing with the character. Re-write the story with an eye to Superman's real past (even if you choose to ignore Wylie), and you have a man who has forsworn killing forced to kill again, and then forced to deal with the emotional consequences. It becomes a much more engaging story.

[OddHat]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

Something I house-rule. Outside of the supers genre (and even there' date=' I don't believe it's absolute) strength does not affect leaping. After all, just look at the physiques of long and high jumpers.[/quote']

 

Long and high jumpers are very strong in the deadlift, clean, snatch, squat, and any other lift that relies on the legs, glutes, abdominal muscles, low back or mid-back. They don't have perfectly balanced physiques, but no specialized athlete does.

 

You might want to read Charles Staley, Charles Poliquin, Keith Hobman, Krista Scott-Dixon, or almost any strength writer who works with competitive athletes.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

Something I house-rule. Outside of the supers genre (and even there' date=' I don't believe it's absolute) strength does not affect leaping. After all, just look at the physiques of long and high jumpers.[/quote']

 

 

Exactly what do you believe affects leaping then?

[keithcurtis]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

He can and should be used as inspiration; I do not want to see an angst driven Superman' date=' let alone SuperWolverMan. However, I do not agree that writing the character with an eye to his full past make him morally gray. It makes him human. Complex, virtuous, flawed, and human. Having him guilt ridden over the execution of three homicidal maniacs is absurd; it pushes people away from emphasising with the character. Re-write the story with an eye to Superman's real past (even if you choose to ignore Wylie), and you have a man who has forsworn killing forced to kill again, and then forced to deal with the emotional consequences. It becomes a much more engaging story.[/quote']

OK, that looks a little different from how I interpreted your first post. It may interest you to know that there was a story several years ago where Superman related to Lois an early exploit of his that was actually culled from an early issue of Action (if not #1, it's been a while since I read it). He overheard a wifebeater with his Superhearing and put the fear of G-d into him by tossing him around town (literally) for a while. Not only did the woman refuse to press charges, he almost got into trouble himself over it (thank goodness for a secret ID). Anyway, the story was about his difficulty in ignoring things Superman cannot change. His super-hearing picked up a similar situation and he had to consciously tune it out. He found some way to deal with it as Clark Kent, with Lois' help, IIRC.

 

Keith "Guess who my favorite comic character is" Curtis

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

OK, that looks a little different from how I interpreted your first post. It may interest you to know that there was a story several years ago where Superman related to Lois an early exploit of his that was actually culled from an early issue of Action (if not #1, it's been a while since I read it). He overheard a wifebeater with his Superhearing and put the fear of G-d into him by tossing him around town (literally) for a while. Not only did the woman refuse to press charges, he almost got into trouble himself over it (thank goodness for a secret ID). Anyway, the story was about his difficulty in ignoring things Superman cannot change. His super-hearing picked up a similar situation and he had to consciously tune it out. He found some way to deal with it as Clark Kent, with Lois' help, IIRC.

 

Keith "Guess who my favorite comic character is" Curtis

 

That sounds well-written. What issue was it? Bigdamnhero and I were talking about how hard it would be to write Superman or any of the established characters because of all the previous continuity. He commented on how hard it would be to bring something fresh to the character. I agreed, but said that the ride is sometimes the point, not necessarily the fact that you have to be going someplace new.

[OddHat]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

 

Keith "Guess who my favorite comic character is" Curtis

 

He's mine as well, which is why I can't stand the bland boyscout, blind idiot, or inhuman saint takes on Superman. All do a disservice to one of the first modern Superheroes.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

As I've read more and more DC over the years, I think I've come to realize that I really don't like Superman in a team book. Hell, I don't like most of the JLA as a team. Wonder Woman, the Flash, Batman, Green Lantern, Green Arrow. They all work for me pretty damn well in their own individual titles, but not so much as a team. Which is odd too, cause I really liked when Wonder Woman and Flash teamed up and generally enjoy the hell out of the Superman & Batman book.

[OddHat]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

As I've read more and more DC over the years' date=' I think I've come to realize that I really don't like Superman in a team book. Hell, I don't like most of the JLA as a team. Wonder Woman, the Flash, Batman, Green Lantern, Green Arrow. They all work for me pretty damn well in their own individual titles, but not so much as a team. Which is odd too, cause I really liked when Wonder Woman and Flash teamed up and generally enjoy the hell out of the Superman & Batman book.[/quote']

 

Pairings are easier to write than large teams, and easier still when the pairs bring very different talents to the table.

 

In the JLA, the threats have to be overwhelming to justify that much firepower, and characters still tend to get left with nothing sensible to do.

 

However, growing up, Legion of Superheroes and the JLA were my favorite titles, so obviously sometimes it works.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

Yeah, I agree. But then, I grew up on the Fantastic Four and the X-men so I come at it from a slightly different perspective.

[OddHat]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

Yeah' date=' I agree. But then, I grew up on the Fantastic Four and the X-men so I come at it from a slightly different perspective.[/quote']

 

I always liked the Fantastic Four, the Avengers, and the Defenders. I read and enjoyed the X-Men and New Mutants, but I lost interest about the time that X-Factor and the Morlocks came in.

 

Still, I was more a DC fan.

[assault]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

However' date=' growing up, Legion of Superheroes and the JLA were my favorite titles, so obviously sometimes it works. [/quote']

 

In fact the LSH worked so well that it pretty well disproves your theory!

 

That's the real LSH, of course. For some reason DC's staff seems to have completely lost the ability to write the book somewhere in the last fifteen years or so.

 

The JLA also suffers from this.

[OddHat]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

In fact the LSH worked so well that it pretty well disproves your theory!

 

Nah. "More difficult" does not equal "impossible".

 

That's the real LSH, of course. For some reason DC's staff seems to have completely lost the ability to write the book somewhere in the last fifteen years or so.

 

The JLA also suffers from this.

 

Agreed. What the hell hapenned to mainstream comics?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

That's the real LSH' date=' of course. For some reason DC's staff seems to have completely lost the ability to write the book somewhere in the last fifteen years or so. [/quote']

Bravo! Indeed! Truer words were never spoken...

[lemming]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

I am sure that' date=' at some time in the past, "Superman" has been shown moving the Earth. It didn't look as if it was EASY, mind you, but he DID accomplish it ![/quote']

My favorite is where Superboy is dragging five or six planets by a chain to get them away from a star going nova.

[Peregrine]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

Nah. "More difficult" does not equal "impossible".

 

 

 

Agreed. What the hell hapenned to mainstream comics?

 

The new 'target audience' is the lowest denominator, common or not. The comics companies want a slice of what they see as the immense cash flow the video game companies are getting, so they are trying to write comics that mimic the content of the most popular games, forgetting/overlooking the fact that it is the medium, and not the content, that makes the video games so profitable.

[st barbara]

Re: Superman's current STR: 365+?

 

Scary "Peregine", very scary !