Nigh invulnerability and Overconfidence

[Boll Weevil]

So, I have this long-time character, Captain Cockroach. Funny, I know others have used this name but there it is. He has been a part of my main super team for about 15 years but I have only recently dusted off his character sheet for a 5th ed update.

 

As you might guess, he is the resident immovable object. Short on offenses but pretty much invulverable to most attacks. He is actually rather fun to play as he is the cannon-fodder guy, "accidental hostage" and chief danger guy.

 

Long ago, I gave him Overconfidence as one of his disads. I think this is OK since there are more ways to fail than getting hurt. What I was really hoping to capture was his fearlessness. He has been a hero since the 80's, fighting some pretty heavy-hitters without much more than some bruises. He knows going into most battles that he will not be injured, or injured badly. Because of this, he has no fear.

 

Is this a disadvantage (even a 0-pt one)? It seems to me like "Fearless" should actually cost points rather than save them.

 

Thoughts? I really do enjoy this character and would welcome stories of your own Juggernaut characters. Ever been dropped into a VIPER nest with explosives strapped to your chest? Cap'n C has!

[megaplayboy]

Re: Nigh invulnerability and Overconfidence

 

Well, does his overconfidence make him jump into situations where he actually can lose/get hurt or killed? If the answer is "yes"(whether sometimes, often or seldom), then it's a disad.

[Iuz the Evil]

Re: Nigh invulnerability and Overconfidence

 

If his 'Overconfidence' or 'Fearless' nature causes him to go "your 'plot device energy blasts' cannot possibly harm me PC-Crusher Man!". (Charges headlong into the fray without concern for his safety)

 

++ BAM! AVLD vs. "Defense the Character Does Not Have" ++

 

"Ow!"

 

Then it's a disadvantage imho.

[Brother Jim]

Re: Nigh invulnerability and Overconfidence

 

fearlessness could also be bought as PRE only to defend against PRE attacks and EGO only to defend against fear causing mental attacks.

 

because he's pretty hard to scare.

[Kelcyron]

Re: Nigh invulnerability and Overconfidence

 

There is a talent called "Fearless" in Fantasy Hero, which I believe is constructed as mental defense and power defense, only vs fear-based effects.

 

Kelcyron.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Nigh invulnerability and Overconfidence

 

Just because it doesn't get him killed doesn't mean it's not a disadvantage. It may simply cause team missions to fail. It could get bystanders killed (sure they can't huirt you - what happens to the ricochets?) "Overconfidence" may mean he engages a villain when he shouldn't - he may not be hurt, but he also can't take the oponent down, resulting in the alarm being raised.

 

It's as much a disadvantage as you're willing to role play it.

[Lucius]

Nigh invulnerability and Overconfidence

 

In 1987' date=' at a party, famous philosopher A.J. Ayer found Mike Tyson harassing Naomi Campbell and demanded Tyson stop. Tyson said "Do you know who the f--- I am? I'm the heavyweight champion of the world." Ayer replied "And I am the former Wykeham Professor of Logic! We are both pre-eminent in our field; I suggest that we talk about this like rational men." .[/quote']

 

Where can I get the whole story on this?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary points out it's not really that far off topic....

[megaplayboy]

Re: Nigh invulnerability and Overconfidence

 

Where can I get the whole story on this?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary points out it's not really that far off topic....

I got it off the wiki entries for both men, but it's mentioned in various magazines, and in published bios of both men. Apparently it worked--Tyson and Ayers began to converse, and Campbell made her escape.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Nigh invulnerability and Overconfidence

 

The operative word is Nigh.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Nigh invulnerability and Overconfidence

 

The operative word is Nigh.

I prefer "Nah!" Invulnerability:

 

ZARK! Boom! Crash! Sizzle!

 

"Did that hurt?"

 

"Nah!"

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Nigh invulnerability and Overconfidence

 

So long as it has a detriment, it's a disad. No detriment = no disad. I would submit that "Fearless" as a talent and "overconfident" are two separate creatures, although inherently linked. And, great question asked prior "How 'bout the result of said explosions?" Collateral damage, innocent passerby, and other party members who aren't nigh invulnerable?

 

So I'd do both.

[shadow_walker]

Re: Nigh invulnerability and Overconfidence

 

I knew someone in school that hade the nickname Captain Cockroach.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Nigh invulnerability and Overconfidence

 

Just as a sidenote, from the description you proivde, I would argue that your character is not truly fearless for the same reason that Superman is (most of the time) not really a hero. Both know that nothing can hurt them. Thus, there is no bravery involved. It's like going to get a gallon of milk out of the fridge. Nothing dangerous. I always imagined fearless as being "I acknowledge that I could easily die, but I won't let that stop me." That isn't true for you character, or Superman. Unless Superman KNOWS Kryptonite will be involved.

 

What's your character's excuse?

[Boll Weevil]

Re: Nigh invulnerability and Overconfidence

 

...What's your character's excuse?

 

Couple things. First, invulnerability is a tricky thing in Hero System rules. His defenses, while obsene, are not absolute. He has very high PD/ED and some Damage Reduction. As Iuz mentioned, an AVLD would take him down hard. It hasn't happened yet but mechanically it is possible.

 

Second, I think of the scene from Star Wars (New Hope) when Han Solo runs after the stormtroopers screaming like a maniac. I realize that Han is not invulnerable but Chewbacca is honor-bound to follow the moron into battle.

 

Fear is a useful tool both in battle and interpersonal relations. The cap'n doesn't wear a seatbelt, runs with scissorsand drinks milk that is way past it's expiration.

 

As an aside, I remember watching the movie Angus (if you haven't seen it, rent it) where Angus' grandfather explains to him why Superman is not brave. A beautiful, poignant scene in a rather cartoonish teen angst movie.

[OddHat]

Re: Nigh invulnerability and Overconfidence

 

AVLDs and NNDs are still affected by Damage Reduction. AVLDs help vs nigh-invulnerable characters, but DamRed is a very effective power.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Nigh invulnerability and Overconfidence

 

AVLDs and NNDs are still affected by Damage Reduction. AVLDs help vs nigh-invulnerable characters' date=' but DamRed is a very effective power.[/quote']

An advantage which specifically bypasses DamRed would be a nice balance.

Penetrating does so, but only half-heartedly, since it only means the minimum damage is still done. +3/4 would seem appropriate, and a nasty shock when it first comes up.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Nigh invulnerability and Overconfidence

 

Couple things. First, invulnerability is a tricky thing in Hero System rules. His defenses, while obsene, are not absolute. He has very high PD/ED and some Damage Reduction. As Iuz mentioned, an AVLD would take him down hard. It hasn't happened yet but mechanically it is possible.

 

Second, I think of the scene from Star Wars (New Hope) when Han Solo runs after the stormtroopers screaming like a maniac. I realize that Han is not invulnerable but Chewbacca is honor-bound to follow the moron into battle.

 

 

As an aside, I remember watching the movie Angus (if you haven't seen it, rent it) where Angus' grandfather explains to him why Superman is not brave. A beautiful, poignant scene in a rather cartoonish teen angst movie.

 

True, but that doesn't really hit the nail on the head. Does your CHARACTER BELIEVE (not just intellectually know, but BELIEVE) that he can be hurt? If so, by what? Because depending on the criteria, then he is not so brave, MOST of the time. Superman, IMO, could ONLY be brave when he KNEW there was going to be Kryptonite, in advance of the fact.

 

I don't see how the Star Wars bit applies, other than it being absolutely hilarious.

 

I think I might rent that movie then.

[Wanderer]

Re: Nigh invulnerability and Overconfidence

 

Just as a sidenote, from the description you proivde, I would argue that your character is not truly fearless for the same reason that Superman is (most of the time) not really a hero. Both know that nothing can hurt them. Thus, there is no bravery involved. It's like going to get a gallon of milk out of the fridge. Nothing dangerous. I always imagined fearless as being "I acknowledge that I could easily die, but I won't let that stop me." That isn't true for you character, or Superman. Unless Superman KNOWS Kryptonite will be involved.

 

What's your character's excuse?

 

I'd say that Superman is still definitely heroic, even if he usually is not in danger of life (except when enemies of cosmic stature, red sun radiation, kryptonite, or magic are involved) because he puts his personal needs, time, and pleasure second to the needs of fellow man. His continuing dedication as a protector makes him a hero. For a good exposition of why Superman's lifestyle makes him a hero, check the travails of his Astro City clone (Samaritan) in the first TPB.

 

This opinion from a guy that passionately despises Superman because of his "boyscout" attitude.

[OddHat]

Re: Nigh invulnerability and Overconfidence

 

Superman constantly risks his life, facing foes of his own level and above. He has also saved the world many dozens of times in the DCU, including the many billions of people on it. Add in around sixty-seven years of public service at great personal cost. He more than qualifies as a Hero.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Nigh invulnerability and Overconfidence

 

I still feel that, for the most part, Superman wasn't being heroic. It is only when he knew in advance that he could actually face real danger that he was heroic. A man who rushes into a burning building to fight the fire is heroic. A man who operates a machine to fight the fire by remote. Both should still be admired, but only the one that knows that he is risking something personally can be classified as a hero.

 

Certain sacrafices do, and some do not, qualify as heroic. Sacraficing your vacation time to save lives is not heroic. It's a very nice thing, but it isn't heroic. Now, sacraficing say your interpersonal relationships in order to fully devote yourself to your "job" MIGHT be heroic. It's also pretty unhealthy.

 

It doesn't matter what he does (in order to properly classify him) it only matters about the circumstances in which he does things.

[OddHat]

Re: Nigh invulnerability and Overconfidence

 

After getting the crap kicked out of him by one cosmic entity after another, by an endless stream of other Kryptonian-and-better class foes, by lunatic after lunatic armed with weapons that can and do pose a real danger to his life, Superman knows damn well that he can die while protecting others, and that he almost certainly will.

 

The man could be living a lifestyle that would make Bill Gates look like a poor boy without breaking or bending a single law; instead, he has devoted his life to helping others. Some writers don't get that, but the competent ones do.

 

Superman is not out there facing only muggers armed with .38 revolvers. He is not giving up only his vacation time. Seriously, is that is how they're writing the book today? If so, the DC Editorial staff must be on crack.

[Guest Getagun]

Re: Nigh invulnerability and Overconfidence

 

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[Manic Typist]

Re: Nigh invulnerability and Overconfidence

 

After getting the crap kicked out of him by one cosmic entity after another, by an endless stream of other Kryptonian-and-better class foes, by lunatic after lunatic armed with weapons that can and do pose a real danger to his life, Superman knows damn well that he can die while protecting others, and that he almost certainly will.

 

The man could be living a lifestyle that would make Bill Gates look like a poor boy without breaking or bending a single law; instead, he has devoted his life to helping others. Some writers don't get that, but the competent ones do.

 

Superman is not out there facing only muggers armed with .38 revolvers. He is not giving up only his vacation time. Seriously, is that is how they're writing the book today? If so, the DC Editorial staff must be on crack.

 

Well, let me confess that I am only really familiar with the early, regurgitated part of Superman's career. You know, where Kryptonite was rare and Lex was the biggest baddie he had to deal with. But, all I'm saying is that he can only be heroic if he KNOWS he can die facing THIS opponent when he goes into the combat. Now, if he discovers it during the combat, and continues, then from that point on, it is heroic. Before that point, it was just stupid.

 

I've never heard anything about Clark that indicated that he could really rake in the cash without breaking laws. Where do you draw this from? Accepting donations for being Superman or something?

[OddHat]

Re: Nigh invulnerability and Overconfidence

 

Well' date=' let me confess that I am only really familiar with the early, regurgitated part of Superman's career. You know, where Kryptonite was rare and Lex was the biggest baddie he had to deal with. But, all I'm saying is that he can only be heroic if he KNOWS he can die facing THIS opponent when he goes into the combat. Now, if he discovers it during the combat, and continues, then from that point on, it is heroic. Before that point, it was just stupid.[/quote']

 

In the earliest stories Superman could be injured by fire and gasses, as well as some heavy weapons. As his power level ramped up, so did the threats he faced. Throughout his career, he saved lives at the risk of his own. You may like or dislike the character or power set, but he was absolutely qualified as a hero.

 

I've never heard anything about Clark that indicated that he could really rake in the cash without breaking laws. Where do you draw this from? Accepting donations for being Superman or something?

 

He could be the world's most successful athlete in any sport he liked, or every sport until people got tired of seeing it. How much is a guaranteed Superbowl victory worth? He could charge fortunes for carrying satelites and other payloads into space, and he'd still be cheaper than maintaining a space program. The US government hires mercenaries every day to provide support services in Iraq and around the world; how much would they pay to have Superman clean out the insurgency? He could kill thousands, we'd pay him millions and we'd still call him a Hero. How much could he have charged for disaster relief services in New Orleans? He could build his own little chatteau in the Antartic or on the moon with every luxury he could possibly want and servants glad to be there and just leave saving lives to underpaid cops and firemen.

 

It is not his obligation to be "Superman", any more than it is your obligation to volunteer at a soup kitchen or as a fire-fighter. So long as he pays his taxes, refrains from crime, votes and shows up for jury duty, Clark Kent is doing all that society asks of a good citizen. Superman volunteers to do all that he does in the DC Universe. He does it because he is a Hero.

[Vondy]

Re: Nigh invulnerability and Overconfidence

 

This is an interesting design question. Some descriptors carry both advantages and disadvantages. For me, since I don't take characters over based on presence attacks (they may lose a phase or two suprised, but that's about it (though that could prove lethal...)), its a matter of how the character plays the character. If they run in where angels fear to tread on a regular basis, that's a disad. If it only makes them more heroic without undue risks, then that's not much of a disadvantage. And if they want to avoid presence attacks and the like without any foolhardiness, then they need to buy the correct powers/talents/stats. I allow characters who want to be utterly fearless (and rush in where angels fear to tread) purchase both the disadvantage and the corresponding abilities. Its a judgement call.