New Advantage: Stackable

[Doc Democracy]

I would like to propose a new advantage that would allow powers to stack to someone else's rather than apply to the person using the power.

 

Stackable

 

A power with this advantage can stack half the effect of the power with the full power of another character with the same stackable power as long as SFX are compatible. Thus FireGuy with a stackable 12D6 Fire Bolt can use his power to provide FlameLass' stackable 10D6 Flame Strike with an extra 6D6 damage.

 

A stackable power can accept only one power boost at a time unless an adder is bought to extend its capabilities. For 5 points the number of boosts can be doubled.

 

A character cannot use a power for other purposes while using it to boost someone else's power stackable power.

 

Stackable is a +1/2 advantage and can double the number of powers that can be stacked for +5 points.

 

 

Obviously this advantage would require careful examination but it allows a number of common effects to be modelled.

 

 

Doc

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: New Advantage: Stackable

 

I dunno... this strikes me as more of a campaign ground-rule type thing, rather than an Advantage. In other words, if it makes sense to me as a GM that two fire-based Energy Projectors should be able to combine their blasts into a single, larger blast, then I might just allow that for the campaign. What characteristic of a particular character's fire blast (for example) would make it "stackable," while another character's fire blast wasn't?

[Rapier]

Re: New Advantage: Stackable

 

Stackable?

 

So do you envision this as a one time thing? Flamelad gives Flamelass a boost for one shot? Why not just coordinate attacks? If its not a one time thing...what is the SFX reasoning?

 

Who pays the END for the stacked effect?

 

How would you stack a 12d6 Flame EB and a 12d6 Flame Flash?

 

The problem I see is that most characters have fairly equal attack levels (approx 60 AP). Flamelad has a 12d6 Flame EB and FlameLass has a 12d6 Flame EB. If all of the sudden Flamelass can (and if she has the ability, I imagine she will spend MOST of her time Stacked...heh...thats funny...FlameLass is STACKED! At least I know if I was the character I would always be stacked. If you were Voltron would you REALLY ever spend any time in combat as seperate lions or would you immediately go to Voltron and kick some bootay?) throw out an 18d6 Flame EB...that's a problem. I would have to design villains that can stand up to an 18d6 EB which means noone else is going to be able to touch them. Or I go the other way and allow FlameLass to suck all the spotlight and pretty soon the rest of the team will bring lawnchairs to battle and just let FlameLass knock out all the villains.

 

I would much rather have the character have some kind of Absorption or partially limit the attack (eg +4d6 Only after "Stack").

[Doc Democracy]

Re: New Advantage: Stackable

 

So do you envision this as a one time thing? Flamelad gives Flamelass a boost for one shot? Why not just coordinate attacks? If its not a one time thing...what is the SFX reasoning?

 

Well, co-ordinating applies defences against each attack 30ED versus each 12D6, stacked it would be 30ED versus 18D6.

 

Co-ordinated attacks need two successful to hit rolls and successful co-ordination rolls, this simply requires points paid on two powers and one successful to hit roll (by the controlling player). co-ordinated inflicts (on average) 24 STUN, stacked inflicts 33 STUN.

 

Who pays the END for the stacked effect?

 

Both characters pay END for their powers as normal. FireGuy and FlameLass both spend the END for their stacked EBs - obviously more END for each of them than a normal EB.

 

How would you stack a 12d6 Flame EB and a 12d6 Flame Flash?

 

No need - that's a multiple power attack. Stackable combines similar damage against a type of defence.

 

The problem I see is that most characters have fairly equal attack levels (approx 60 AP). Flamelad has a 12d6 Flame EB and FlameLass has a 12d6 Flame EB. If all of the sudden Flamelass can (and if she has the ability' date=' I imagine she will spend MOST of her time Stacked...heh...thats funny...FlameLass is STACKED! At least I know if I was the character I would always be stacked. If you were Voltron would you REALLY ever spend any time in combat as seperate lions or would you immediately go to Voltron and kick some bootay?) throw out an 18d6 Flame EB...that's a problem. I would have to design villains that can stand up to an 18d6 EB which means noone else is going to be able to touch them. Or I go the other way and allow FlameLass to suck all the spotlight and pretty soon the rest of the team will bring lawnchairs to battle and just let FlameLass knock out all the villains.[/quote']

 

Well, it isn't up to FlameLass alone whether her EB is stacked. She needs FlameLad to use his attack action to boost the power of her attack with his own.

 

In an AP limited game the stackable advantage would immediately bring the available power down to 8D6 + 4D6, it only becomes useful once you have three people combining in such a campaign.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: New Advantage: Stackable

 

I dunno... this strikes me as more of a campaign ground-rule type thing' date=' rather than an Advantage. In other words, if it makes sense to me as a GM that two fire-based Energy Projectors should be able to combine their blasts into a single, larger blast, then I might just allow that for the campaign. What characteristic of a particular character's fire blast (for example) would make it "stackable," while another character's fire blast wasn't?[/quote']

 

I would allow players to come up with other justifications for stacking, like FlameGuy causing ArrowMan's missile's to burst into flames for extra damage...

 

It is, as rapier pointed out, potentially extremely powerful where caps are in place, so should cost points rather than be just at GM discretion.

[BNakagawa]

Re: New Advantage: Stackable

 

This is broken.

 

This has the potential for turning a 12d6 eb into essentially an 8d6 NND that automatically coordinates with any other 12d6 EB.

 

You're on drugs if you think this is even remotely balanced.

[Gary]

Re: New Advantage: Stackable

 

This is broken.

 

This has the potential for turning a 12d6 eb into essentially an 8d6 NND that automatically coordinates with any other 12d6 EB.

 

You're on drugs if you think this is even remotely balanced.

 

 

Actually, it turns 12d6 into 4d6 NND that coordinates. 60 Active = 8d6 with +1/2 Advantage, and thus 4d6 will be added to the other person's attack.

 

It would take 3 people with the same power before you start receiving any sort of gains compared to a single 12d6 EB without any advantages.

[Eosin]

Re: New Advantage: Stackable

 

I kinda like it.

 

Everything in Hero is broken without some gamemaster guidance. This seems no more or less broken than a brick with a cranked up SPD.

[casualplayer]

Re: New Advantage: Stackable

 

Isn't this just Aid for powers with similar special effects? Jumpstart gives a little extra ooomph to Thunderbolt, etc.

 

Stackable means I quickly have 2^5 Followers all with 2d6 EB just like mine. Smells like Roquefort.

[Black Rose]

Re: New Advantage: Stackable

 

This seems like a good example of that "adding complexity where it is unneeded" thing. You could easily replicate the "Stackable" effect with Aid or Succor; I'd recommend Succor with Standard Effect for simplicity.

[stan da ork]

Re: New Advantage: Stackable

 

Why not just have the character that wants to be able to boost other people's powers put his Power in a Multipower with a Succor?

 

60 Fire Control: Multipower, 60 Point Reserve

6u Fire Blast: EB 12d6 (60 AP)

3u Fire Boost: Succor EB 12d6 (60 AP), Fire Special Effect Only (-1/2), Others Only (-1/2)

 

The character has to pay END to boost the other Power, and it goes away if the character fires his own EB, since he has to move the Reserve Points, and Succor is Constant. Seems like the standard way of doing this works fine to me...

 

EDIT: Heh, didn't see Black Rose's comment before I posted mine. Ditto. And as far as being able to boost other SFX, like the fire guy

lighting an archer's arrows, just change "Fire Special Effect Only" to "Only Things the GM Says Can Be Boosted By Fire", probably at -0, or -1/4 if the GM is generous.

[BNakagawa]

Re: New Advantage: Stackable

 

stackable + FW = dead villains.

[Lucius]

New Advantage: Stackable

 

Sounds like a variation of Usable by Others....hm. Or maybe not. Perhaps Succor is closer, because it adds to someone else's powers.

 

LA

p

[Doc Democracy]

Re: New Advantage: Stackable

 

Hmm.

 

Not much support then?

 

The stackable advantage means that the blast can be built up by someone else with compatible effects or can stack onto another attack with the stackable advantage.

 

I reckoned that it would need GM supervision to avoid the cheesy applications like followers with the stackable EB...but I thought it would be simpler than trying to work out the Aid and Succor for a one off boost.

 

Never mind - if it works in my game then that's all that counts.

 

 

Doc

[Trebuchet]

Re: New Advantage: Stackable

 

I kinda like it.

 

Everything in Hero is broken without some gamemaster guidance. This seems no more or less broken than a brick with a cranked up SPD.

I'm pretty much in agreement with this position. I think the idea has real merit; and almost any power construct can be abused. How many players are going to build their characters to Stack in a typical group; and how will that be more dangerous in general than full-power coordinated attacks? A character or two in a group with Stackable is not going to be a major balance issue.

 

It would also be a good way to represent those heroes with common origins and similar powersets.

 

If you think about it, this isn't significantly more powerful in an average Champions 60 AP-capped game than a Pushed & Haymakered ranged attack. If adding half of the Stacked Power seems too high, perhaps adding a quarter would be better. But I'd allow it as is; perhaps putting a Stop Sign on it to alert the GM to a potential for problems if too many characters buy Stackable.

 

Rep for Doc Democracy for thinking outside the box.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: New Advantage: Stackable

 

Rep for Doc Democracy for thinking outside the box.

 

Oof! You really notice when one of these 100+ rep power people hit you with the rep stick!

 

 

 

Doc

[hancock.tom]

Re: New Advantage: Stackable

 

I like the multipower with Succor idea, but if you like the stackable option better, use it.

[Trebuchet]

Re: New Advantage: Stackable

 

Oof! You really notice when one of these 100+ rep power people hit you with the rep stick!

Well, that is kind of the point of the exercise.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: New Advantage: Stackable

 

Thus FireGuy with a stackable 12D6 Fire Bolt can use his power to provide FlameLass' stackable 10D6 Flame Strike with an extra 6D6 damage.

 

Stackable is a +1/2 advantage and can double the number of powers that can be stacked for +5 points.

At its base level, it's actually too expensive! +1/2 on FireGuy's Fire Bolt costs an additional 30 points - for which he could have bought an extra 6d6 himself. He could have an 18d6 Fire Bolt without FlameLass even being there! (True he has to spend 3 additional END, but there are ways around that, such as +4d6 0 END, then he gets 16d6 for the same price.) And for the price of the +1/2, FlameLass could increase hers to 15d6 - without needing the cooperation of FireGuy.

 

It's an interesting idea. And everyone should note: If 18d6 is too much for a particular campaign, then you don't have to allow Stacking to that level, but it isn't a valid argument against the merits of the proposed advantage per se.

[Rapier]

Re: New Advantage: Stackable

 

It's an interesting idea. And everyone should note: If 18d6 is too much for a particular campaign' date=' then you don't have to allow Stacking to that level, but it isn't a valid argument against the merits of the proposed advantage per se.[/quote']

 

Now, its more like a Stop Sign. For me, this comes down to the same problem as Absorption into an attack power. A REALLY bad idea. The thing with Absorption is that it has other uses. Stackable doesn't...or does it? Can you use it on FFs? What about Shrinking? Flight?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: New Advantage: Stackable

 

Now' date=' its more like a Stop Sign. For me, this comes down to the same problem as Absorption into an attack power. A REALLY bad idea. The thing with Absorption is that it has other uses. Stackable doesn't...or does it? Can you use it on FFs? What about Shrinking? Flight?[/quote']

 

The obvious place would be for attack powers but I don't see why you couldn't have (with good SFX justification and the points spent) several PCs stacking their forcefields to allow one of their number to venture into a dangerous area - leaving themselves vulnerable while they help their colleague.

 

I was wondering how it would work with flight coz they'd be unable to use their own flight while stacking with someone else's - this would be more open to abuse than EBs I think though not as game affecting.

 

I'm not sure how the SFX would justify the stackable shrinking but if there is someone with greater imagination than me - then by all means go for it.

 

I think it would allow for situations that the system just doesn't at the moment. Sacrificing the use of your own power to aid a colleague's attack, defence or some other power.

 

I came up with it for my own FH purposes rather than superhero ones - but if it doesn't work generically then I'll have to come up with something that does...

 

 

Doc

[BNakagawa]

Re: New Advantage: Stackable

 

What happens when you let somebody with a SPD 4 boost a teammate with SPD 8?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: New Advantage: Stackable

 

What happens when you let somebody with a SPD 4 boost a teammate with SPD 8?

 

As a GM? Well, first I wonder why mr stackable SPD bought 4 SPD as stackable rather than SPD 6 and then whether I allowed him that because he had good SFX for being able to stack with someone else's SPD.

 

My initial thoughts are possibly the spirit transferring from one body to another so that more actions are available to the stacked PC while the other stood effectively lifeless and defenceless.

 

Seems fair to me that two PCs who have paid enough points in SPD to have SPDs 6 and 12 get to take 10 actions between them...

 

Doc

 

PS: this is making me consider whether both the stacker and the recipient should have the advantage on their power. In some cases it doesn't seem that there should - but that should be more expensive for the stacker.

 

Hmm.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Advantage: Stackable

 

Happy New Year, good Doctor.

 

Interesting idea. I'm sure we can all think of abuses (especially with a nice hefty duplication power too....) but it seems like a good way of simulating something I have seen in comics in a relatively straightforward way. I mean 8d6 stackable means that two characters with stackable are pumping out a 12d6 attack - which they could each have for the same points - presumably therefore the power only comes into its own with 3 or more participants.

 

Equally 60 points would get you a 12d6 succor, which would add 42 points on average, or a little over 8d6, for a single 20d6 blast - far more dangerous.

 

Maybe you could make it +1/4 not +1/2?

 

Then 12d6 stackable would cost 75 points, the equivalent of a 15d6 attack, for an 18d6 attack, which is probably reasonably balanced against 2 x 15d6 attacks.

 

Rather than having an adder for extra participants I'd be inclined to say you need twice as many, so to add an additional +12d6 you would need 4 participants, to add 18d6 you would need 8 participants and so on. It would still rapidly get very nasty, and I'd probably be inclined to stop at 2 for most purposes.

 

Anyway, interesting idea.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: New Advantage: Stackable

 

Happy New Year' date=' good Doctor.[/quote']

 

Happy New Year to you. You've been a bit quiet since the holidays - I've missed your morass of ingenuity and so had to go thinking of stuff for myself...

 

Maybe you could make it +1/4 not +1/2?

 

Then 12d6 stackable would cost 75 points, the equivalent of a 15d6 attack, for an 18d6 attack, which is probably reasonably balanced against 2 x 15d6 attacks.

 

As you might have seen from my last post I was considering perhaps a cheaper version where both participants required the advantage and a more expensive where only the person stacking needed the advantage...

 

 

Rather than having an adder for extra participants I'd be inclined to say you need twice as many, so to add an additional +12d6 you would need 4 participants, to add 18d6 you would need 8 participants and so on. It would still rapidly get very nasty, and I'd probably be inclined to stop at 2 for most purposes.

 

Anyway, interesting idea.

 

Possibly - I'll have a think about how that could be worded.

 

 

Doc