Comparing starship speeds.

[Badger]

I remember me and another of my friends talking about the warp speed (Star Trek) and hyperspeed (Star Wars). And trying to figure if it was the same, one faster, what have you. Any thoughts?

[Mantis]

Re: Comparing starship speeds.

 

I remember me and another of my friends talking about the warp speed (Star Trek) and hyperspeed (Star Wars). And trying to figure if it was the same' date=' one faster, what have you. Any thoughts?[/quote']IIRR, the Warp Factor number is the power of the speed of light ©; Warp 1 is c, Warp 2 is c^2, etc. So we know its measurement in the real universe.

 

However, Lightspeed is just Lightspeed. Since we don't know distances for any journey anyone makes, we can't even work backwards from the time taken and distance travelled from, say, Tatooine to Alderaan Asteroid Field in Episode IV, to work out how fast it could be for an allegedly fast ship. Han does say he "made the Keppel run in under 12 parsecs" when he's first hired, which just shows what a tool Lucas is, because a parsec is a measure of distance, not time . But since this journey takes just long enough for the wookie to win a game of chess, but journeys from system to system in Star Trek take days, or at least one hour longer than desired until Scotty/Geordie/B'Elanna makes their Engineering roll so the engine's can, in fact, "take the strain" of that extra bit of warp required in which case the [name of ship] arrived just in time (sorry, I digress) - anyway, I'd say Lightspeed is faster than Warp Speed.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Comparing starship speeds.

 

 

Han does say he "made the Keppel run in under 12 parsecs" when he's first hired, which just shows what a tool Lucas is, because a parsec is a measure of distance, not time .

 

Although I agree that George has a marvelous ability to mess up his universe, he is pretty good about fixing that with reasonable explanations.

 

The Keppel run is a route through the Keppel system, which is filled with dozens/hundreds of min-black holes. People who play it safe and go around often take many parsecs to do so.

 

However...the system is ONLY about 12 parsecs in diameter.

 

Han was saying his ship was so fast that he could hyper into and out of realspace fast enough that the singularity's didn't have the time to get a good grasp on his ship and suck it in.

[Guest Major Tom]

Re: Comparing starship speeds.

 

Actually, the way that Warp speed was handled in both the original series and

movies, it was equal to the speed of light times the cube of the Warp Factor

(Warp 1 was equal to the speed of light, Warp 2 was 8 times lightspeed, Warp

3 was 27 times lightspeed, et cetera). Then when ST: TNG rolled

into the picture, they started to handle Warp speed in a different way. In one

of the earliest sources that I came across back when ST: TNG first aired,

Warp speed was now equal to the speed of light times the Warp Factor times

itself 5 times (WF = c x {2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2}, to give an example of Warp 2 using

the new system). IIRC, this new Warp system was referred to as Ultrawarp

drive.

 

Now, as far as Transwarp drive goes, I'm not real sure how exactly it was sup-

posed to work, or how Transwarp Factors compare to standard Warp Factors.

What I do understand is that the principle was based on the incident involving

the Tholians and the original U.S.S. Defiant ("The Tholian Web" episode,

Original Series), and that it was supposed to be a hybrid of Transporter and

Warp Drive technology, allowing faster travel time from one point to another.

 

With regards to the Hyperdrive of Star Wars, it appears that in terms of

travel speed, it falls somewhere between the Warp Drive of Star Trek and

the FTL Drive of Battlestar Galactica (new series).

 

 

Major Tom

[keithcurtis]

Re: Comparing starship speeds.

 

(Minor Quibble: "Kessel" run)

 

As far as warp speeds go, all the references to actual speed have been non-canon, ie, they have not been specifically stated in an episode. Technical manuals and novels don't count.

 

Hyperspace seems to be far faster. The Rebel Fleet rendezvous(es) outside the galaxy at the end of EP V. They are far enough beyond the rim to show the galaxy as a disk. That's a long durn way. Voyager was unable to make it across the galaxy in less than decades. Hyperspace jumps seem to be measured in hours or perhaps days at the very most.

 

BSG has no refernce point for speed yet that I can see.

 

But this is immaterial. As Babylon 5's creator JMS has said, "My ships travel at the speed of plot". This is true of all fictional spaceships.

 

Keith "Made the Kessel Run just four knots short of a hectare" Curtis

[McCoy]

Re: Comparing starship speeds.

 

(Minor Quibble: "Kessel" run)

 

As far as warp speeds go, all the references to actual speed have been non-canon, ie, they have not been specifically stated in an episode. Technical manuals and novels don't count.

 

Hyperspace seems to be far faster. The Rebel Fleet rendezvous(es) outside the galaxy at the end of EP V. They are far enough beyond the rim to show the galaxy as a disk. That's a long durn way. Voyager was unable to make it across the galaxy in less than decades. Hyperspace jumps seem to be measured in hours or perhaps days at the very most.

 

BSG has no refernce point for speed yet that I can see.

 

But this is immaterial. As Babylon 5's creator JMS has said, "My ships travel at the speed of plot". This is true of all fictional spaceships.

 

Keith "Made the Kessel Run just four knots short of a hectare" Curtis

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to keithcurtis again."

[Cancer]

Re: Comparing starship speeds.

 

One of the crucial decisions in any sci-fi universe is how your FTL travel works (if you have it at all). That dictates how your economics work, where and how your ship combat occurs, and so on. Most universes, though, don't address the question head-on, both because FTL is probably impossible, and because of what Keith mentions, never let tech issues get in the way of your plot.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Comparing starship speeds.

 

There's a grocery store in Michigan called Kessel's. Whenever we're up there visiting, and we go the to store for whatever reason, I feel the urge to sing the Star Wars theme.

 

My wife's reaction -->

[Zeropoint]

Re: Comparing starship speeds.

 

Recall the events of episode Three:

 

[somewhere on the outer edge of the galaxy]

 

ANAKIN: *cough, wheeze* "Wow, swimming in lava is harder than it looks."

 

[Coruscant]

 

PALPATINE: "Hmm. My Force-amplified intuition tells me that Lord Vader needs those Sith medical benefits about now."

 

Palpatine hops on a ship and heads out.

 

[somewhere on the outer edge of the galaxy]

 

PALPATINE: "Ow. Man, sucks to be you."

 

 

 

Total transit time appears to be in the neighborhood of maybe fifteen minutes at the outside.

 

Granted, that was an extreme example, but in Episode I, it looks like Darth Maul can get from Coruscant to Tatooine in about a day, or less.

 

Actually, I think that hyperspace travel is probably faster than Star Trek's subspace communication.

[Outsider]

Re: Comparing starship speeds.

 

Agreed.

 

Hyperspace (SW) seems to be -really- fast, though once out of hyperspace, SW ships seem to be relatively slow.

 

Warp speed has a lower 'upper end' but ST ships seem to be prety fast in N-space. There is even some evidence that they can fight at warp speeds, though in the later series they seem to never actually do so.

[austenandrews]

Re: Comparing starship speeds.

 

I had the impression that Palpatine arrived on the lava planet considerably later, like many hours.

 

Hyperspace is faster because Lucas's stories mostly happen on planets, whereas Trek adventures occur quite frequently in transit. SW characters just get there quick; ST characters feel the journey.

[Dale A. Ward]

Re: Comparing starship speeds.

 

I have no idea which system is faster...

 

I have no idea how Warp number relates to light speed...

 

However, in one of the ST:TNG books, it was plainly stated by Guinan that...

 

"Warp 10 is equivalent to occupying every point in the universe simultaneously."

 

Just between you and me, I think that's the fastest.

[Brother Jim]

Re: Comparing starship speeds.

 

i have nothing to back this up, but to me the new BSG's FTL is a megascaled teleport.

[The_Patriot]

Re: Comparing starship speeds.

 

i have nothing to back this up' date=' but to me the new BSG's FTL is a megascaled teleport.[/quote']

 

I would have to disagree since when they do a FTL jump it's far from instaneous and it takes quite awhile for them to get to another location. When you do see them jumping like the Raptors it doesn't account for the entire trip time since Moore has specifically stated that not everything is shown on the screen as people are smart enough to figure things out. They just happen to cut out the long jump times to speed up the show since showing a realistic Newtonian style jump would be akin to watching the grass grow.

[The_Patriot]

Re: Comparing starship speeds.

 

Well I'm wrong on this so accept my apologies for the inaccuracte statements. Their FTL drives use wormholes based off of Superstring and M-Theory which make it instaneous jumps. Time for me to go back into my BSG Hero and change how the drives work.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Comparing starship speeds.

 

"Warp 10 is equivalent to occupying every point in the universe simultaneously."

I hadn't realized they'd incorporated the Infinite Improbability Drive into the Trek universe.

 

OTOH, Guinan isn't exactly a warp engineer, now is she? Maybe Geordi was rolling his eyes when she said that (not like we'd be able to tell) and muttering to about to himself: "Yeah right, what talk show did you hear that one on?"

 

 

bigdamnhero

“If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.”

[Zeropoint]

Re: Comparing starship speeds.

 

1) Warp 10 = occupy all points simultaneously comes about because Gene Roddenberry wanted to eliminate the ever-increasing warp numbers of the original series. For TNG, a new warp scale was developed wherein the lower numbers maintain a reasonable distinction between speeds, but the scale approaches warp 10 asymptotically. Warp 10 is by definition infinite speed. That's why you'd hear the crew talking about warp 9.9, or warp 9.999, etc. Each additional 9 probably represents more speed than the rest of the number.

 

2) Star Wars ships are extremely fast in sublight as well as hyperspace. In Episode II, Count Dooku's ship made it from an inner planet to the asteroid belt in less time than it took Yoda to scowl, sigh, and pick up his stick. Estimates of the acceleration required to do this run around 8,000 G.

[Outsider]

Re: Comparing starship speeds.

 

If the system Dooku (what a name) was in was similar to ours :

 

Inner planets distance from sun :

Mercury : ~3 Light Minutes

Venus : ~5 Light Minutes

Earth : ~8 Light Minutes 1

Mars : ~12 Light Minutes

Asteroid Belt (center) : 22 Light Minutes

 

So, again if the system Dooku was in was similar to our system, he would have had to have travelled at least 10 Light Minutes to make it from an 'inner planet' to the asteroid belt. The only way he could have done it in less than 10 minutes is by hyperspace.

 

Or the system he was in is not at all similar to our system, in which case using that as an example of how fast SW ships are doesnt work, as we dont know how far he did cover.

 

Or Lucas had him moving at the Speed of Drama, which is even faster than the Speed of Plot, both of which arent all that measurable.

 

So I posit that Dooku must have made an in system hyperspace jump to travel that distance in a scowl, sigh, and stick pickup, OR the system he was in has its asteroid belt far, far, far closer to its inner planets than does ours, OR Lucas had Dooku moving at the speed of drama, instead of any fixed rate.

[austenandrews]

Re: Comparing starship speeds.

 

That "asteroid belt" was the planet's ring. The one Obi-Wan and Jango Fett played tag in earlier.

[Basil]

Re: Comparing starship speeds.

 

In Star Wars, and the first series of Star Trek, ships moved "at the speed of plot"---i.e., they get where the author wants them, when he wants them. Star Wars kept that "speed" throughout its existance.

 

The "cube the 'warp factor' to find the speed in multiples of c" bit came along after the first series of Star Trek had been cancelled.

 

Somewhere between the Star Trek movies and the second series, a new "formula" came in, whereby "warp factor 10" was Infinite Speed/Instantaneous Movement. That is, at warp factor 10 a ship would be going at Infinite Speed and would, therefore, arrive everywhere instantaneously. I don't believe the formula for converting warp factors to multiples of c was ever released (if indeed it was ever decided on), but it's clearly asymptotic, with the asymptote parallel to the y-axis, at x=10.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Comparing starship speeds.

 

The creators of Star Trek were notoriously poor at developing an internally consistent model of their fictional science and technology. After all, it might get in the way of their storytelling.

 

So, the reason there is no good chart or formula for converting from warp factor to speed is because they didn't WANT one.

[McCoy]

Re: Comparing starship speeds.

 

I hadn't realized they'd incorporated the Infinite Improbability Drive into the Trek universe.

 

OTOH, Guinan isn't exactly a warp engineer, now is she? Maybe Geordi was rolling his eyes when she said that (not like we'd be able to tell) and muttering to about to himself: "Yeah right, what talk show did you hear that one on?"

 

 

bigdamnhero

“If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.â€

Guinan wasn't a warp engineer, but Harry Kim (the Wesley Crusher of his generation) was. He not only built the first Federation Transwarp drive, but built a ship that actually reached Warp 10. Tom Paris said that he was on Earth and Voyager at the same time. Unfortunately, pilot and crew expierenced some side effects of Warp 10 travel that made it impractical.

[Badger]

Re: Comparing starship speeds.

 

So what would happen if you hit Warp 11.

 

 

Thanks, for all the thoughts. Though I didnt quite expect the physics class. Ouch!! My brain hurts.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Comparing starship speeds.

 

I sense a Spinal Tap joke in the near future....

[SteveZilla]

Re: Comparing starship speeds.

 

i have nothing to back this up' date=' but to me the new BSG's FTL is a megascaled teleport.[/quote']

 

I agree. BSG's "FTL drive" IMO functions not as a "speed magnifier" like in SW or ST, but as a "jump drive". Little if any time is spent "in transit", though you did go from point A to point B in less time than light took. Thus it's called an FTL Drive.

 

I missed the last episode, so this may have already been resolved, but I have to make the following comment:

 

Galactica vs Pegasus? I'll put 20 on Galactica!