Kzinbane Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 There are several spells in the grimoire that allow a mage to transform into various monsters or animals. Question - would you restrict what a mage and "do" to what monsters/animals the mage actually knows about and that exist in the world? Here is the situation - I am in a Turkanian age campaign, and my mage will soon be learning Calmirs first spell of the monsterous form. My GM mentioned though that the mage won't be able to turn into a dinosaur because he wouldn't know about them. He IS the GM and I will go by his decision, but that doesn't mean I can't gather a few opinions of other fantasy GM's and attempt to change his mind! If he's stubborn then I'll get him....... I'll demand a full Turkanian age Monster manual be created by him, stocked fully with exactly what the mage CAN transform into! Of course then he may just pull those spells as ones I can use... hard to win vs "God". Anyhow... comments? Suggestions? What would YOU do here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bik Britelite Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Re: Fantasy GM's - question... Well I would have to agree with your GM on this one. The idea for me would be, only if you've seen one could you transform into one. The idea that just because you could transform into anything does not mean you know everything you could transform into. Maybe spend some time and pick up a KS: Local Fauna, or a KS: Exotic Fauna. This would give your character more insight into what is out there for you to become. Not to mention if makes you go out into the world to explore out new species to turn into. Which may or may not be painful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Play4Keeps Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Re: Fantasy GM's - question... There are several spells in the grimoire that allow a mage to transform into various monsters or animals. Question - would you restrict what a mage and "do" to what monsters/animals the mage actually knows about and that exist in the world? Here is the situation - I am in a Turkanian age campaign, and my mage will soon be learning Calmirs first spell of the monsterous form. My GM mentioned though that the mage won't be able to turn into a dinosaur because he wouldn't know about them. He IS the GM and I will go by his decision, but that doesn't mean I can't gather a few opinions of other fantasy GM's and attempt to change his mind! If he's stubborn then I'll get him....... I'll demand a full Turkanian age Monster manual be created by him, stocked fully with exactly what the mage CAN transform into! Of course then he may just pull those spells as ones I can use... hard to win vs "God". Anyhow... comments? Suggestions? What would YOU do here? Trying to scrod your GM is bad. Asking others to help you is worse. Asking strangers to help is foolish. If I knew your GM I'd tell him. If someone on the board knows, he might tell him. FHG p.188 "The GM may add other forms to the 'restricted' list..." It's the GM's world anyway, but here it says he can make the spell fit his world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Desmarais Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Re: Fantasy GM's - question... I'm basically on your GM's side here. Unless the spell is a specfic "turn me into a platapus" or similarly specific spell, I'd rule that you must at least know of the animal you are trying to turn into to be able to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Re: Fantasy GM's - question... I'm basically on your GM's side here. Unless the spell is a specfic "turn me into a platapus" or similarly specific spell' date=' I'd rule that you must at least know of the animal you are trying to turn into to be able to do so.[/quote'] ...or perhaps even a physical bit of a creature of the desired type.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzinbane Posted March 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Re: Fantasy GM's - question... Ok, good enough! The reason I wrote here was for opinions - the fact that the replies went in favor of the GM is fine with me. Part of the fun of the game is working around things. Since I'm not going to be able to convince him to change his mind I'll just work with what I have and figure something out. Thanks for the replies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeropoint Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Re: Fantasy GM's - question... I'm just curious as to the thought process going through the mind of a mage as he turns himself into an animal that he's never even heard of, let alone seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzinbane Posted March 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Re: Fantasy GM's - question... I figure he just uses his imagination and goes for something big and frightening. I'm sure rumors abound about Dragons and whatever - as well as giant squid, sea monsters and the high father knows what else. Monster by definition means freaky and scary - I personally can think of a few forms I could go with that are not "real" or imagined but could be damn frightening! You are probably right though to some degree - I suspect he'd go for HUGE versions of something familiar. Giant crabs, giant insects, whales, etc. The Basic spell allows 32 (IIRC) monsters - I'm really going to have to work at what 32 "real" monsters are allowed. The Turakian critters book will help though - then I'll double check with the GM to see if he objects to what I choose. I suppose I could just make it easier and not pick the spell(s) at all - stick with high power fire bolts and such - but it seems more fun to me to get to wade in and do some damage up close and personal instead of standing back as the wimpy mage casting death and distruction from afar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitz Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Re: Fantasy GM's - question... I've had shape-shifters in my own campaign, and I find it easiest just to get the player to make a "KS: Critters of the World" (an Everyman skill in my campaign) roll, modified -0 to -8 by the rarity/obscurity of the desired form. If they make the roll, they know enough about the creature to be able to imitate it (superficially, at least). I get them to keep a list of the forms they've tried, successfully or not, for future reference -- if they failed the roll, then in future they'll have to research the critter if they want to be able to try it again. If they failed badly then they don't even know the thing exists. And if they made it, then they don't have to re-roll for the same form in future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Re: Fantasy GM's - question... I was thinking about posting the difficulties of divesting player knowledge from character knowledge - but I decided not to, as it may end up being a ranting thread-jack that should really have it's own thread in a different forum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzinbane Posted March 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Re: Fantasy GM's - question... I've had shape-shifters in my own campaign, and I find it easiest just to get the player to make a "KS: Critters of the World" (an Everyman skill in my campaign) roll, modified -0 to -8 by the rarity/obscurity of the desired form. If they make the roll, they know enough about the creature to be able to imitate it (superficially, at least). I get them to keep a list of the forms they've tried, successfully or not, for future reference -- if they failed the roll, then in future they'll have to research the critter if they want to be able to try it again. If they failed badly then they don't even know the thing exists. And if they made it, then they don't have to re-roll for the same form in future. I'd say this was fairly reasonable, however other spells of the same cost as the monster one - don't have any restrictions and potentially can do a heck of a lot of damage. In fact in poking around for spells for my mage to learn I was thinking of limiting the monster spell to familiar forms as a way to make it cheaper (more limitations in other words). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelDoom Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Re: Fantasy GM's - question... I think an interesting idea would be to copy some of the anciant real world cuiltures that believe when you eat something you take on part of its powers. So a limitation like: Must sample raw flesh to learn form -1, might work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzinbane Posted March 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Fantasy GM's - question... Ewww! Character is Vegetarian! And he changes into a giant hot pepper and maces the attacking orc hordes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Fantasy GM's - question... A giant hot pepper? That's different. I'd side with the DM. Since ... well, generally I am the DM, and I'm always on my side. Not HIS DM, but "the" DM. Where were we? Oh yeah, I had this rule in place a long time ago - you can't become what you don't know, that's silly and invites all sorts of abuse. It also forces the player to be a bit more creative. I do, however, want to say this: "breaking the game" is not fun for most DMs who are putting way, way too much work into their campaigns already. Your cooperation makes the game better, not deciding you don't like a rule so you're going to heckle the GM until he gives you what you want. Just sayin'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzinbane Posted March 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Fantasy GM's - question... I am a GM/DM myself - we tend to move around in my group depending on who wants to run what. As far as the monster spell - I'm not going to push it - but I have suggested that if it's going to be further restricted from the one in the Grimoire that it gets to take additional disad's - making it cheaper. As far as decisions such as this one - I don't take the game seriously enough to really get too annoyed. Mildly yes, because the decision impacts on the fun I have in the game. When I GM I try to let the players have fun, as long as they aren't going to "break" the game. My mage turning into a T-Rex won't do that - but enough complaining - it is his game and that's that! A side note though - I just bought the spell (still pending GM approval) and am going to simply use very large versions of cratures the character is familiar with. In the end while more realistic (lol, well - sorta) the monsters will likely be more effective than if he'd just have let me change into a dinosaur! I'll be changing into things like Giant ants, crabs, spiders and the like. Giant versions of familiar critters in other words. 20 foot long Yellowjacket anyone? I'm spending a few points on Turakian world zoology so hopefully I'll be expanding out of the insects, arachnids and crustatians soon. The problem is the monsters listed in the books are limited. I can't see changing into undead monsters (even if he allows it I'd put restrictions on my own character there) or demons. Dragons though... hmm. Any text anywhere that indicates that the Turakian age setting HAS dragons? If so.... Bwah ha ha ha ha is all I have to say! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Fantasy GM's - question... I'd be inclined to allow chimerical composite monsters (think Greek myth and Mideval bestiaries) as well, but without some kind of KS to back it up, you might end up with unfavorable side effects (like the Ant Lion, who's body can't digest what the head eats) If the shapeshifting from the spell is based on the casters imagination, its a lot easier to imagine a giant wolf with a vultures head than it is to imagine something like a Velociraptor if you've never seen anything of the sort Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzinbane Posted March 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Fantasy GM's - question... Mixed forms like Chimera's or Griffons and the like really should not be too much of an issue. I would not expect the spell to be used for long periods of time due to the potential for personality loss (i.e. forgetting that you're a mage and not a critter). I suppose if my mage gets a giant eagle or something like that in his list though transportation may be a use rather than the main use right now which will likely be fighting off monsters and hordes of orcs and such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Fantasy GM's - question... I usually make them start out with a single form. This form requires a great deal of study. As the mage spends more time studying the inner and outer workings of various animals/monsters he/she can increase the forms available. The spell shouldn't give you free reign to suddenly morph into any thing you can think of. Don't try to finagle your GM. There will be no winners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Fantasy GM's - question... I usually make them start out with a single form. This form requires a great deal of study. As the mage spends more time studying the inner and outer workings of various animals/monsters he/she can increase the forms available. The spell shouldn't give you free reign to suddenly morph into any thing you can think of. Don't try to finagle your GM. There will be no winners. Especially with this spell. I mentioned before that the one GM I knew who used the Turakian age magic system had his game implode. This spell - and free use of it by a ruthless player - was the prime reason. He simply started duplicating all the monsters the GM threw at them and the monsters had to get tougher and tougher rapidly, since ordinary foes melted in the face of a basilisk or similar creatures. It soon reached the point where the shapeshifting mage absolutely dominated the party. Anything that could challenge him in a fight would kill anyone else in the party and many critters gave him useful non-combat powers as well. I feel bad about this - the player (who shall be unnamed to protect the guilty) was a hero noobie. After talking to him, I suggested he play a druidy-type shapeshifting character because that's what he grokked in d20. The GM was cool with that. But when the GM showed him the Grimoire, the player decided that being able to turn into different kinds of monster was way cooler than being able to turn into different kinds of animal. And the result was .... cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzinbane Posted March 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2006 Re: Fantasy GM's - question... There must be a lot of players that whine constantly at GM decisions out there! Several people have advised against badgering the GM about this - and I have already said I will not a few times! I am planning to limit this spell useage on purpose to mundane sorts of monsters not magical ones. It seems utter foolishness for my mage to have a lmited spell list but be able to change into a Dragon with a larger one - for example. I'm going to leave out most monsters with magical powers such as the Basalisk and the like. Bottom line is I want to enjoy the game. I am also thinking of limiting the spell to once per day. If I want to change enemies to stone I'll learn the Thaumatology spell that does that. The only reason I wanted this one and probably the aid strength one is so that at times I can enjoy a good hand to hand battle instead of always casting spells from afar. A change of pace on occasion, don't cha know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rigel Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 Re: Fantasy GM's - question... Dragons though... hmm. Any text anywhere that indicates that the Turakian age setting HAS dragons? Yes. On TA p. 78, there is a description of the city-state of Tatha Gorel, which is ruled by a dragon named Scauromdrax the Magnificient and has been for nearly three centuries. TA p. 61 talks about the once prosperous village of Amberleaf in Keldravia that was destroyed by a dragon named Intravius in 2768 FE. And, of course, both the Drakine and the Seshurma claim to be descended from dragons. Dragons are certainly a rare (and frightening) sight, but they do exist to be sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzinbane Posted March 29, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2006 Re: Fantasy GM's - question... Oh? heh..heh...ha...hah...HAH..BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Ahem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted March 29, 2006 Report Share Posted March 29, 2006 Re: Fantasy GM's - question... The problem is the monsters listed in the books are limited. I can't see changing into undead monsters (even if he allows it I'd put restrictions on my own character there) or demons. Dragons though... hmm. Any text anywhere that indicates that the Turakian age setting HAS dragons? If so.... Bwah ha ha ha ha is all I have to say! Err...IIRC the Bestiary has some dragons listed. Not sure. It at least has a wyvern, I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenixcrest Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 Re: Fantasy GM's - question... Err...IIRC the Bestiary has some dragons listed. Not sure. It at least has a wyvern' date=' I believe.[/quote'] The Bestiary has a generic dragon, yeah. Also, to the opening poster: no offense, but if you were in my game I'd become the most horrifically passive-aggressive GM you've ever encountered. I hate, hate, HATE it when players try to undermine me so their characters can be a little more god-like. This seems to be the case with a lot of other GMs, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CourtFool Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 Think about what you are doing This is the type of power-gaming that spelled the demise of my last group. I plead with you to consider, while this may be fun for you will it be fun for your Game Master and the other players? All the fun you are having will come to an abrupt end when the rest of your group quit/leave/resign because they are bored/tired/frustrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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