why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

[Spence]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

In my world when I use the UN, it has broken into three distinct organizations.

 

1) Diplomatic Neutral Zone and International Aid.

 

The existing structure has become a place where countries can interact diplomatically, even when they are "officially" at war. They no longer have anything to do with Peace Keeping and they no longer have a "legislative" purpose. No security council, etc. With the loss of the glamour of big bucks funneled into secret personal accounts and countries using the UN as a way to force their personal agenda the attraction for the corrupt has gone down. The UN has become a respected organization of impeccable honesty that specializes in face saving arbitration of international disputes. It is organized with a Director and a Council. These lead Divisions that specialize in different regions of the world. These same divisions also oversee the distribution of Aid. This “Golden Age” of UN honesty is secretly maintained by the Director and Senior council who are powerful mentalists who can sense the ethics and morals of anyone they meet. By selectively hiring only those who will truly follow the organizations purposes they have built a truly neutral UN.

 

2) Interpol

 

Interpol has been gathered under the UN umbrella. In much the same way as the UN diplomatic core has been cleansed, so has Interpol become a force for true justice. Possessing only police powers, Interpol only serves to prevent crime or apprehend criminals. Working in close cooperation with law enforcement agencies world wide they have built a sterling reputation as fair and incorruptible. Since they do not have a court system they cannot dispense final justice. Instead criminals that are apprehended are turned over to the UN Council Criminal Justice Liaison Division to be remanded to the appropriate jurisdiction for trial. For some reason the UNCCJL always seems to always pick the best judiciary for the administration of true justice.

 

 

3) UNTIL

 

Pretty much like Interpol, but for the “special cases”. UNTIL is also the custodian for the worlds “Stronghold” complexes.

 

 

Yes, I know what you are thinking. But I prefer to run my superhero games a little more black and white morality instead of gray. I get gray everyday in the real world.

[assault]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

I see nothing wrong in setting up a setting focusing on the presence of superhumans in the world' date=' maybe with a tight limited set of possible origins for superpowers (e.g. reality-warping mutants, genegineering, and advanced tech), [/quote']

 

These origins are exactly those that I ban in most of my settings.

 

My biggest hate is nanotechnology. If I see the term in a character's origin, I automatically crumple up the sheet and throw it at the player.

[tylermcdowell]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

 

I agree a world with supers and alien invasions would look different, but then, follow through on the argument! Do the world building. Write the background. Make me believe it! That's what being a good world-builder is all about - creating plausible suspension of disbelief. You don't get to take the easy road and then demand my buy-in with the handy admonition that, if my suspension of disbelief fails to kick in, I just wasn't imagining hard enough. Oh, puh-lease. What Quixotic Balderdash! Do the work. Give me something I can get into.

 

Von "the man whose imagination was hijacked" D-Man

 

Exactly the point. UNTIL as it is published just is too contrived trying to be all things to all people. Either have an UN that has enforcement power or follow a more real life approach having UNTIL fit. The only concept worse in the offical Champions Universe is the WW II "mystic shield" covering Europe.

 

Politics has nothing to do with my thoughts. I want Champions to be the best possible and pointing out what I feel are major flaws is how I try to help. A first rate game needs first rate products and writing. If anything, I see the discussion as fertile ground for GMs to develop their own adventures and plots. What if there is a power behind UNTIL that is a telepath and controling the world leaders to build UNTIL as written?

[nexus]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

These origins are exactly those that I ban in most of my settings.

 

My biggest hate is nanotechnology. If I see the term in a character's origin, I automatically crumple up the sheet and throw it at the player.

 

My personal one is "Magic". Never a particular type or style, just "Magic."

[Doug McCrae]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

My biggest hate is nanotechnology. If I see the term in a character's origin' date=' I automatically crumple up the sheet and throw it at the player.[/quote']Why's that? I can see someone getting sick of mutant as an origin due to its overuse in the late 80s/early 90s (even Thor was a mutant I think) and it also being an easy way to justify a random collection of powers a la Nightcrawler.

[assault]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

Why's that? I can see someone getting sick of mutant as an origin due to its overuse in the late 80s/early 90s (even Thor was a mutant I think) and it also being an easy way to justify a random collection of powers a la Nightcrawler.

 

I'm not really sure why Nanotech gets up my nose so much. I suppose it just feels incompatible with Rocket Propelled Gorillas and Superpowered Teens who are Romantically Involved with their Superpets.

 

I should also add that I am getting into the Marvel Family a lot at the moment. Nanotech has no place in their world either, Alan Moore aside.

[TheRavenIs]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

I'm not really sure why Nanotech gets up my nose so much. I suppose it just feels incompatible with Rocket Propelled Gorillas and Superpowered Teens who are Romantically Involved with their Superpets.

 

Ok, that made me laugh. Rep you if I can for the laughter.

[Trebuchet]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

Politics has nothing to do with my thoughts. I want Champions to be the best possible and pointing out what I feel are major flaws is how I try to help. A first rate game needs first rate products and writing. If anything' date=' I see the discussion as fertile ground for GMs to develop their own adventures and plots. What if there is a power behind UNTIL that is a telepath and controling the world leaders to build UNTIL as written?[/quote']My general feeling is that (within the bounds of a world that has supers in the first place) the background of the game world should be plausible and reflective of what people are really like. It doesn't have to be particularly logical because people aren't either; but there should be some way to help suspend disbelief for the players.

 

I think the reason I dislike UNTIL (not simply the DoJ version, but the idea as a whole) is that it has a "tacked on" feel that just doesn't mesh well with the world I run my games in. (Of course, I feel that way about the Champions Universe in general, which is why we prefer the far richer campaign universe we've developed over 13 years of play.) UNTIL was largely created over a short span of real time to make up book for publication, and so lacks the organic feel of a campaign or comic that has evolved over a lengthy period of time with input from a number of disparate sources. If we someday create an UNTIL-analogue for our campaign, I think I'd prefer it to be slowly built over time like real organizations, complete with occasional missteps and reorganizations, rather than springing forth in total perfection like someone rubbed the genie's lamp.

[Wanderer]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

These origins are exactly those that I ban in most of my settings.

 

My biggest hate is nanotechnology. If I see the term in a character's origin, I automatically crumple up the sheet and throw it at the player.

 

Well, it's funny to see how much our tastes may differ. The origin types I most despise, and tend to ban without a reeeaaally good justification, are mundane random "radiation/chemical accidents" and "I train really hard" martial arts and weaponmasters.

 

In my perception, while it is perfectly fine to assume that someone may be bestowed superpowers by being the *accidental* subject of either exotic super-science experiments or purposeful superhuman-creation treatments, my suspension of of disbelief bets bended in quite painful shapes by the IMO stupid idea that someone may get something other than a messy death by mundane industrial accidents with chemicals, electricity, radiation, etc. Unless the accident is just the occasion for a hidden mutant/psi/magical/reality-warping latent potential to emerge.

 

Likewise, I tend to find the idea quite silly that someone may train oneself in *mundane* martial arts or weapons use to be on par with true superhumans that may bend or violate the laws of physics. Exotic regimens that tap hidden magical or supernatural inner or cosmic sources of power, are all good. Mutant/magical/psi/reality-warping powers that express themselves as really superhuman combat prowess are all good. "I train really hard at the local dojo in the same stuff mooks get, yet I am unexplicably leagues better than them and on par with guys that bend steel and outrun bullets" is surely not.

 

I also suppose that preferences for origin types also reflect tastes about the various subgenres and ages of comics, their distinctive flavors and "bits", and the degree of scientific consistency they seek (and the fact each Age tends to overuse the "hip" technology or scientific field of the period): nanotechnology, genegineering and reality-warping tend to be the signature origins of the late Iron Age, just the way chemicals and radiation were in Golden and Silver Age, and cybernetics in early Iron Age (so far, I can't point out what the signature origin of Bronze Age would be: magic, perhaps ??). Mutantkind, like magic, is an evergreen that has spanned and kept quite popular in multiple Ages, although mutans have indeed seen a resurgence of popularity in Iron Age.

 

It must also be remarked that all Ages tend to overuse (and therefore to cause them to be perceived as "lazy" in due time) their "pet" origins, and that during their age, any such origin all got to be perceived as roughly equally scientifically sound and "hip". In retrospective they may either get to be perceived as lazy (by overuse to the point of clichè) and silly (because advancing scientific knowledge casts them as ridiculous), and therefore disliked (if one cares more for realtive realism) or appreciated nonetheless (if one cares for that age's flavour so much that is willing and able to stretch one's suspension of disbelief that much further).

 

Probably steadily advancing scientific knowledge will cause the genre fans of the next age to see nanotechnology and genegineering as lazy and vaguely ridiculous as chemical and radiation accidents do to fans of the modern subgenre. Probably, a new "hip" technology will arise to take their place. OTOH, there are some evergreen origins, which postulate such a radical and outre violation of basic laws of physics, such as mutantdom, psi, magic, divine power, cosmic power, that will probably always keep looking trendy, up-to-date, and popular. I suspect reality-warping will join the august ranks of the evergreens in due time.

 

Anyway, I tend to regard rocket-propelled gorillas and superpets in real need of a quick and messy death, so I have little tears to spare for their demise from incompatibility, and, anyway, isn't it that much healthy for superpowered teens to be romantically involved in complex soap-opera melodramas with hot sex goddess and hunk peers

[tylermcdowell]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

My general feeling is that (within the bounds of a world that has supers in the first place) the background of the game world should be plausible and reflective of what people are really like. It doesn't have to be particularly logical because people aren't either; but there should be some way to help suspend disbelief for the players.

 

I think the reason I dislike UNTIL (not simply the DoJ version, but the idea as a whole) is that it has a "tacked on" feel that just doesn't mesh well with the world I run my games in. (Of course, I feel that way about the Champions Universe in general, which is why we prefer the far richer campaign universe we've developed over 13 years of play.) UNTIL was largely created over a short span of real time to make up book for publication, and so lacks the organic feel of a campaign or comic that has evolved over a lengthy period of time with input from a number of disparate sources. If we someday create an UNTIL-analogue for our campaign, I think I'd prefer it to be slowly built over time like real organizations, complete with occasional missteps and reorganizations, rather than springing forth in total perfection like someone rubbed the genie's lamp.

 

Exactly.

 

Looking at real history there are several ways to have UNTIL start that fit. Keep in mind, I am coming with all of this off the cuff and all facts need to be checked.

 

Just prior and during WWII there were many organizations started to provide help and aid to war torn countries. UNICEF being the most famous. These were assigned to Allied control once the alliance was formed. When the Allies agreed on the formation of the UN it was agreed that these agencies would be transferred to the control of the United Nations.

 

Given the Hitler's belief and obsession with the occult, it also would make sense that there would be people that would work prevent the Nazi's from getting/learning/harnessing mystical powers. The concept worked well enough in the Indiana Jones movies and Hellboy. Allied command would be sceptical of these people but would see that there maybe something to what these nuts are talking about. Given their personalities and rather odd ideas, it would makes sense to create a agency that they would be assigned to for when they are needed... and out of the way.

 

Once the War was over and in the general rush to get things back to normal, it would be plausible that the boogie man agency would be given over to the UN along with the other civilian allied agencies. At this point the Un would have to figure out what to do with them. Maybe at somepoint they nuts saved FDR or the like and Eleanor Roosevelt used what influence she could to ensure that the new UNTIL survived. Then once there was the big monster stomp described in Defender of Freedom (or other things like an space invasion), there would be a reason to expand UNTIL's authority. If anything a history like this allows a GM to develop UNTIL to be used in a Pulp, Horror, Space, Superhero, or GI Joe/Cobra type campaign.

 

Though being an intellect challenged, UN hating, political zealot American lacking the sophistication that non-American's are blessed with in such abundance, it is impossible that I could even do the 15 minutes of internet research on the UN or read something of the history of the world to come up with such an idea.

 

Forgive the rant, Trebuchet. It was not directed at you.

[freakboy6117]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

that's why I'm currently devising my own version of UNIT to replace it .

 

I'm basing it somewhat on the expanded history and organizational elements that have appeared in the diverse doctor who books, audio plays and TV shows. i think they really add something to the concept and I like idea of them being autonomous special forces groups with technical support.

 

the way UNIT i portrayed in the expanded who universe is with each country or area having an independent group answerable to there national government.

 

which is handy because if something does go wrong (head honcho gets mind controlled or government replaced by aliens) only one group goes down and the rest can still respond though after the incident.

 

all these international groups report to a central office under international mandate they handle information exchange and coordinate a global response to incidents also to provide expertise to nations unable to coordinate there own unexplained incident response.

[Spence]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

Well, it's funny to see how much our tastes may differ. The origin types I most despise, and tend to ban without a reeeaaally good justification, are mundane random "radiation/chemical accidents" and "I train really hard" martial arts and weaponmasters.

 

For me I really don't have a problem with any of them. I guess it is because I use "hidden" ability/disads in vitually all my games. All PC's have extra hidden points the players don't know about and I skim a small % of XP as the game goes on. Take the "I train really hard mook" in your example. He may believe that, but in "reality" his abilities are from {insert choice here}. It may be several sessions before I actually define the details of a hidden power or disad. But I always make sure it meshes with the players character concept. Many times it will just be a "boost" of an existing power. Sometimes it will be that critical ability that the new player "didn't want to waste points on" because "I can always buy it latter if it becomes a problem".

 

It is great to enhance the "unknown" for plots and such. Rather than the players "knowing" who all his hunteds are.

 

[/ramble]

[Wanderer]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

For me I really don't have a problem with any of them. I guess it is because I use "hidden" ability/disads in vitually all my games. All PC's have extra hidden points the players don't know about and I skim a small % of XP as the game goes on. Take the "I train really hard mook" in your example. He may believe that, but in "reality" his abilities are from {insert choice here}. It may be several sessions before I actually define the details of a hidden power or disad. But I always make sure it meshes with the players character concept. Many times it will just be a "boost" of an existing power. Sometimes it will be that critical ability that the new player "didn't want to waste points on" because "I can always buy it latter if it becomes a problem".

 

It is great to enhance the "unknown" for plots and such. Rather than the players "knowing" who all his hunteds are.

 

[/ramble]

 

Oh, as I said, I'm quite cool with "super-warriors" character concepts that are actually self-deluded mutants/psi/mystics/reality-warpers with an unrecognized superhuman potential, or adepts of high-end wuxia/anime ultra-secret mystical paths that routinely allow initiates to sling fireballs, split steel into twain, and make random body parts explode and are but high-fantasy magic with martial arts trappings. What really grates on my nerves are the cases where someone gets too enamored of the Zorro/Karate Kid/G.I.Joe/Robin Hood mystique taken at face value and is hell-bent on having their "streetwise" martial artist/weaponmaster/Bat-clone characters able to stand up to mid-high-end bricks, energy projectors, and speedsters with the skills they picked at the friendly neighborhood dojo, Special Forces commando training, or Olympic fencing/karate/archery. Admittedly, this is more of a problem in comics, where author fiat can make the most ridiculous things stand (Bat-God and "Spider-Man beats Firelord", I'm looking at you ), than in superheroic RPG where it is often difficult to push the effectiveness of mundane skills beyond a certain power level cap.

[nexus]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

For me I really don't have a problem with any of them. I guess it is because I use "hidden" ability/disads in vitually all my games. All PC's have extra hidden points the players don't know about and I skim a small % of XP as the game goes on. Take the "I train really hard mook" in your example. He may believe that, but in "reality" his abilities are from {insert choice here}. It may be several sessions before I actually define the details of a hidden power or disad. But I always make sure it meshes with the players character concept. Many times it will just be a "boost" of an existing power. Sometimes it will be that critical ability that the new player "didn't want to waste points on" because "I can always buy it latter if it becomes a problem".

 

It is great to enhance the "unknown" for plots and such. Rather than the players "knowing" who all his hunteds are.

 

[/ramble]

 

Do you tell the players that's your style? Some gamers -really- hate that sort of thing. I'll go along with a gm restricting the type of backgrounds he'll allow (its his setting) but I've never been big on the "Oh you think your abilities are this way but you've been being deluded for all this time" sort of backgroud. Just a personal taste thing or someone messing with character concept with informing me it was at least a possiblity first.

[Peregrine]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

Looking at real history there are several ways to have UNTIL start that fit. Keep in mind, I am coming with all of this off the cuff and all facts need to be checked.

 

Just prior and during WWII there were many organizations started to provide help and aid to war torn countries. UNICEF being the most famous. These were assigned to Allied control once the alliance was formed. When the Allies agreed on the formation of the UN it was agreed that these agencies would be transferred to the control of the United Nations.

 

Given the Hitler's belief and obsession with the occult, it also would make sense that there would be people that would work prevent the Nazi's from getting/learning/harnessing mystical powers. The concept worked well enough in the Indiana Jones movies and Hellboy. Allied command would be skeptical of these people but would see that there maybe something to what these nuts are talking about. Given their personalities and rather odd ideas, it would makes sense to create a agency that they would be assigned to for when they are needed... and out of the way.

 

Once the War was over and in the general rush to get things back to normal, it would be plausible that the boogie man agency would be given over to the UN along with the other civilian allied agencies. At this point the UN would have to figure out what to do with them. Maybe at some point they nuts saved FDR or the like and Eleanor Roosevelt used what influence she could to ensure that the new UNTIL survived. Then once there was the big monster stomp described in Defender of Freedom (or other things like an space invasion), there would be a reason to expand UNTIL's authority. If anything a history like this allows a GM to develop UNTIL to be used in a Pulp, Horror, Space, Superhero, or GI Joe/Cobra type campaign.

 

Though being an intellect challenged, UN hating, political zealot American lacking the sophistication that non-American's are blessed with in such abundance, it is impossible that I could even do the 15 minutes of internet research on the UN or read something of the history of the world to come up with such an idea.

 

I've got something similar in mind for UNTIL in my own (nebulous) campaign world, although I started it as an independent (of the UN) organization tasked with handling Axis super prisoners during the Nuremberg Trials. They took over the prosecution of Axis supers as well, and eventually the Trials themselves (as the supers cases were the last to be tried).

 

I like the idea of a WWII-era group tasked with keeping mystic stuff out of Axis hands, but in a supers setting it might go beyond just the mystic, or else the mystic stuff would be 'deep hidden', which is a setting trope for a lot of supers settings. My initial thought on combining my idea and yours was that my version of UNTIL could eventually absorb or be merged with your "boogie men" (as opposed to "mystery men", which was the war-era term for supers in some settings).

 

Aside: A gaming friend of mine is willing to suspend disbelief for the CU UNTIL because, as he puts it, the organization was created by "Batma-, er, Optimus", for which he's willing to give it a pass. He has a point.

 

Second aside: I'm another non-nuanced jingoistic American, so that's two of us.

[Trebuchet]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

Though being an intellect challenged' date=' UN hating, political zealot American lacking the sophistication that non-American's are blessed with in such abundance, it is impossible that I could even do the 15 minutes of internet research on the UN or read something of the history of the world to come up with such an idea.[/quote']That makes three of us.

[assault]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

Do you tell the players that's your style? Some gamers -really- hate that sort of thing.

 

 

Darn tootin'!

 

If a GM messed with my character conception without my permission I would tell them where to shove their game.

 

Come to think of it, I probably wouldn't give them my permission, either.

[Spence]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

Do you tell the players that's your style? Some gamers -really- hate that sort of thing. I'll go along with a gm restricting the type of backgrounds he'll allow (its his setting) but I've never been big on the "Oh you think your abilities are this way but you've been being deluded for all this time" sort of backgroud. Just a personal taste thing or someone messing with character concept with informing me it was at least a possiblity first.

 

For the first question. Of course, I always make sure players understand how I GM. I would think that would be a given.

 

Also I don't think you understand what I am actually talking about. The vast majority of "hidden" points are spent within the framework already provided by the existing character concept. In many comics/anime a hero "discovers" a hidden source of power/strength in a moment of dramatic stress. Many times this cannot be covered by simply pushing. Also when a PC acquires another hunted, they may not actually know they did, hidden disads. Generally I have only used them for "drastic upgrades" for new players that just refuse to grok the setting. Take the "I train really hard mook", I've met the new player that just doesn't click a supers world concept. Now if he is "100% normal" with "just" training, you could just limit him to NCM and let him get pasted in the first super fight, and then hope they will still want to try the game after losing the first PC needing to make another. Or dumb down the session so the supers are bored but the "I train really hard mook" is OK. Or you can do what I do and beef his PC up so he can survive. Then when UberEvilBrick punches "I train really hard mook" through a wall and he discovers he is dead, he can be suitably amazed at his "hidden inner strength" and stay in the game. afterwards I sit down explain what I did. Most times they will grok supers and redesign the PC after tweeking their concept a bit. For Heroic level games there is much less utility in using hidden points in the power/ability role. There it is mostly plot and skill driven.

 

Heck, there have been some players that were so good at character concept and such that it was hard to feed them the "new disad" points for new secret hunted's and such.

 

Overall, remember hidden points should be used sparingly and only if they really serve a purpose plotwise.

[Spence]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

Darn tootin'!

 

If a GM messed with my character conception without my permission I would tell them where to shove their game.

 

Come to think of it, I probably wouldn't give them my permission, either.

 

Once again you didn't understand what I was talking about. But if you insisted on making a Heroic Level "normal" ninja because it was your concept. Don't be surprised when the Grond smashes you. The other players would probably be happy with a super'd ninja. Also a secret nemesis is only secret if you don't know about it.

[assault]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

But if you insisted on making a Heroic Level "normal" ninja because it was your concept. Don't be surprised when the Grond smashes you.

 

But that happens to most supers as well, because they are neither faster nor more invulnerable than normals. And most probably aren't as well trained.

 

At least in the general source material. Clearly in your setting they are. In that case, you should explain this up front.

 

What you seem to be doing is allowing players to play non-viable characters, hosing them, and then fixing them after the fact.

 

Frankly, if I was a player, I would rather have the facts of the setting explained clearly ahead of time, so that I could build a viable character in the first place.

[tylermcdowell]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

Of course the mystic stuff would be a jumping off point. Maybe the boogie men are aliens, stranded travelers from the future, or a Dr Moreau creation. The basic concept of UNTIL, I believe, is a group of normals (highly trained and equiped) going up against threats just below or low level super villains (though raw power is never a requirement for a good villian). This could be a small secret group or a large army leading the interstellar fleets of mankind against the strange unknown of space.

 

With a good, plausible origin to start from it is possible for the GM to freely develop the tone of the game as they wish. The offical history of UNTIL is so contrived and inconsistant that it is almost easier to scrap it and start over fresh if one has a different direction for UNTIL. As written they are UN cops with spiffy guns and such. Nothing wrong with UN Cops and robbers, just not my style.

 

When I was thinking about my vision of UNTIL, I thought using the boogie/mystery man approach that ideas can be stolen from the 50's giant bug, alien monster, mad scientist movies. Bond movies or GI Joe/Cobra are just as easy to steal from. Pulling stuff from cartoons like Speed Racer (just who does Racer X work for?) Johny Quest or even (a moment of silence for a personal childhood favorite.......) The New Adventures of Flash Gordon from the 70's.

 

Maybe I am strange or warped, I always figured that a good product for any RPG never dictated to a GM what was, but gave them a good concept that is easily adapted to their vision of a game world at the same time solid enough to help a new or weak GM get started. TSR started getting away from this in the late 80s with Dragonlance. Modules were written to follow the events as they were in the books. Later I began hearing gamers that moaned and groaned that the older dungeon crawls were so lame because there was no background or direction. They wanted a storyline and plot for them to follow. Isn't that what a GM is supposed to develop?

[GrooveD70]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

Oh' date=' as I said, I'm quite cool with "super-warriors" character concepts that are actually self-deluded mutants/psi/mystics/reality-warpers with an unrecognized superhuman potential, or adepts of high-end wuxia/anime ultra-secret mystical paths that routinely allow initiates to sling fireballs, split steel into twain, and make random body parts explode and are but high-fantasy magic with martial arts trappings. What really grates on my nerves are the cases where someone gets too enamored of the Zorro/Karate Kid/G.I.Joe/Robin Hood mystique taken at face value and is hell-bent on having their "streetwise" martial artist/weaponmaster/Bat-clone characters able to stand up to mid-high-end bricks, energy projectors, and speedsters with the skills they picked at the friendly neighborhood dojo, Special Forces commando training, or Olympic fencing/karate/archery. Admittedly, this is more of a problem in comics, where author fiat can make the most ridiculous things stand (Bat-God and "Spider-Man beats Firelord", I'm looking at you ), than in superheroic RPG where it is often difficult to push the effectiveness of mundane skills beyond a certain power level cap.[/quote']

 

Your veiw point is well explained and I know those who share it, but I gotta say the characters and stories that you hate are the ones I like best! When Deathstroke took out damn near the entire Justice League in Identity Crisis I was like Anytime Batman whups Supes Im like To me this sort of hero is a great and inspirational archetype of comics and is no more unrealistic than a man turning into a huge green monster intead a pile of ash after a atomic blast. I'm not trying to start an arguement, I just gotta stand up one of my favorite aspect of the genre.

[Wanderer]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

Your veiw point is well explained and I know those who share it' date=' but I gotta say the characters and stories that you hate are the ones I like best! When Deathstroke took out damn near the entire Justice League in Identity Crisis I was like Anytime Batman whups Supes Im like To me this sort of hero is a great and inspirational archetype of comics and is no more unrealistic than a man turning into a huge green monster intead a pile of ash after a atomic blast. I'm not trying to start an arguement, I just gotta stand up one of my favorite aspect of the genre. [/quote']

 

Well, likely the genre is big and it offers something to almost everyone, you can keep you Bat-God issues, whose existence I trey my damnest to ignore, and I keep my Avengers issues where they happily trash whole basefuls of ninja or paramilitary mooks in minutes (OTOH, if one of us were GM for the other, would be probably at each other's throat before long ). As I said, I have equally severe issues with "radiation accidents" characters, too. For me, it's an issue of story consistency and the degree of suspsension of disbelief involved. I wish a good superhero story not to ask of m any more suspension of disbelief that reading a sci-fi or fantasy novel and accept that such and such super-science tech or magic system does exist. However, true superhumans only require me to make the initial leap of faith that yes, power source X, which generally has a decent sci-fi or fantasy fictional instory explanation, can really enable a human body to outrun bullets, rip steel barehand, and shoot plasma blasts outta eyes. But Bat-clones give me the very annoying and grating in-story inconsistency that someone is able to do the same degree of reality-breaking stuff, using the same plain mundane stuff that any other mook in the story uses, getting sorely trashed, with no explanation other than "he's cool". Sorry, cool-dom is fine, but has definite believability thresholds, the upper hand of action movie stuff, which "I'm so damn trained" Bat-clones violate left, right, and center (the best boxeur in the world punching steel will never break it). Either give me a decent story reason why a seemingly normal guy like me and you can suddenly do the Superman stuff (Neo is the One because he rewrites Matrix-reality with a thought, not because he knows kung fu), or I'm forced to deem it utter crap. To me, Batman dropping Superman with karate moves has the same WTF quality of Rambo suddenly slinging fireballs.

[GrooveD70]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

I can see where you are coming from but I never have seen in the comics or in my games a Batman type character punching through steel or beating a superman with karate. In comics the writers are able to provide these characters with the means to win somehow (kryptonite, some kind of preplanned strategy or gadget). In games this becomes more difficult but most of my players have the sense to know that their "bat clone" cant "brick" his way through a wall but could have something in his utility belt to help him accomplish the same task.

 

One of my MA/Gadgeteers fights bricks toe to toe with his MA skills and fighting sticks that have a "taser" function (usually con or stun drain)... You can do alot with different types of "batarangs".

 

I like to play in superhero games that feel like the comics I read. For a more realistic feel I would play in a cinematic action film kinda game. When I think of comics I look forward to suspending my disbelief. I know these stories are often ignoring reality. But thats the thing that they deliver that othere genres do not. I would have the same gripes as you if we were talking about Star Hero or Western Hero or watching a Tom Clancy blockbuster, but with superheroes I like to go to a place were men can catch jets and Batman can figure out a way to beat damn near everybody. I like to see Sidey almost get killed but then defeat the villian at the last moment.

 

I like realism in terms of characters actions, emotions and personality but as far as powers and combat the more over the top the better. Just my opinion, to each his own. I think if there were a Justice League hero game it should be just as fun to be Batman as it is to be Superman.

 

Again not trying to argue taste, I am just trying to express why I don't feel these Archetypes are stupid.

[Wanderer]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

I can see where you are coming from but I never have seen in the comics or in my games a Batman type character punching through steel or beating a superman with karate. In comics the writers are able to provide these characters with the means to win somehow (kryptonite, some kind of preplanned strategy or gadget). In games this becomes more difficult but most of my players have the sense to know that their "bat clone" cant "brick" his way through a wall but could have something in his utility belt to help him accomplish the same task.

 

One of my MA/Gadgeteers fights bricks toe to toe with his MA skills and fighting sticks that have a "taser" function (usually con or stun drain)... You can do alot with different types of "batarangs".

 

I like to play in superhero games that feel like the comics I read. For a more realistic feel I would play in a cinematic action film kinda game. When I think of comics I look forward to suspending my disbelief. I know these stories are often ignoring reality. But thats the thing that they deliver that othere genres do not. I would have the same gripes as you if we were talking about Star Hero or Western Hero or watching a Tom Clancy blockbuster, but with superheroes I like to go to a place were men can catch jets and Batman can figure out a way to beat damn near everybody. I like to see Sidey almost get killed but then defeat the villian at the last moment.

 

I like realism in terms of characters actions, emotions and personality but as far as powers and combat the more over the top the better. Just my opinion, to each his own. I think if there were a Justice League hero game it should be just as fun to be Batman as it is to be Superman.

 

Again not trying to argue taste, I am just trying to express why I don't feel these Archetypes are stupid.

 

I see the merit in your point also, but again my trouble with Batman characters is not the fact that they are extremely smart and perceptive or "the world' greatest detective/strategist" and therefore able to figure a way to beat pretty much everybody. It is their cool shtick and they have my blessing. It's the means they not uncommonly use that offend me, in the hands of lazy or fanboy writers and players that try to push the Bruce Lee or McGyver hype beyond all believability. It annoys me that the means (plain mundane tech or street-level martial arts), which are shown to be wholly uneffectual and pathetic in the hands of everyone else in the setting, in the hands of Bat-clones are shown to unexplicably and amazingly raise to truly superhuman level of effectiveness with no good explanation, other than "he's good with it". Would it be so hard to give the character a decent in-setting explanation of the discrepancy, such as he doesn't use mundane tech or skills, but the super-science or magical equivalents, or the character has reality-warping powers that allow him to make such things work at efficiency levels well beyond their normal limits. I mean, Cap. America swallowed the super-soldier serum, Midnighter has a truckload of cutting-edge cybernetic implants. I have no problem with them (barely) holding their ground with cosmic powerhouses. Would it be such a betrayal of the character concept to give such background justifications to the Bat-clones, when they are supposed to drop Hulk clones when batrangs or karate chops ?? It is all good when they stop Superman clones with skillful strategy, psychological trickery, ultratech gadgets, kryptonite, or magic. I got a problem when they are supposed to best them at their own game (such as hand-to-hand combat) with no other justification than "He's so cool, he trained really hard and is so good at everything" authorial or player fanboyism.