Superfluous Powers

[David Johnston]

What are the powers that, if they didn't already exist, few people would see a need to add them?

 

I see

 

Swinging (It's really Flight with a height limitation)

Gliding (It's really Flight with the 'can't gain altitude limitation)

Darkness (It's really a special case of Environmental Control)

[Frenchman]

Re: Superfluous Powers

 

I'd do away with different levels of transform (cosmetic, minor, major) - it would be much simpler and more elegant to fold those into a single transform power that functioned like a major transform with partial effect.

[Lxndr]

Re: Superfluous Powers

 

Armor (it's a special case of PD/ED, plus Damage Resistance)

[Mike W]

Re: Superfluous Powers

 

What are the powers that, if they didn't already exist, few people would see a need to add them?

 

I see

 

Swinging (It's really Flight with a height limitation)

Gliding (It's really Flight with the 'can't gain altitude limitation)

Darkness (It's really a special case of Environmental Control)

 

Not really. You can't hover with either Gliding or Swinging either. And your turn modes work differently, especially for Gliding. And you theoretically COULD gain altitude with Gliding if you had the proper air currents.

 

 

Admittedly, we could probably cover them with other things, but they are so common that I don't mind them being "pre-built" so to speak. Especially since Darkness would be tough to build with Change Environment. I mean, how much a negative do you need to guarantee that someone can't see at all? -15(at least)? That's REALLY expensive.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Superfluous Powers

 

I can't really think of anything in 5th Edition that really shouldn't be there, as per Steve's conception of the rules. I suppose the only thing would be Suppress, which doesn't make sense as it's own Power if Succor isn't. It should still be there though.

[Lucius]

Re: Superfluous Powers

 

If someone thinks Armor is superfluous, what does that make Force Field?

 

While it's true that Gliding and Swinging could be built as variations on Flight (and who says they can't hover? What do you think Spiderman is doing when he's just "hanging around?") it's also true that ALL the movement powers could be covered by a supergeneric "Movement" power, or even that Running and the rest could be folded into Flight with various advantages and limits.

 

But my nomination for power that would cause the biggest uproar if removed, but that would not have been missed if it had never been there, are the Killing Attacks.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thought I was going to say Desolidification!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Superfluous Powers

 

I thought about mentioning Killing Attacks, but I like the mechanic to much.

 

Force Field is definately a possibility, since you could just buy Armor Cost END and get an identical effect, and as it stands now, either FF or Armor can have identical SFX given the appropriate Modifiers.

[DEFCON Clown]

Re: Superfluous Powers

 

I don't think any of the powers are superfluous. Though I would like to make Regeneration its own power again.

[Vorsch]

Re: Superfluous Powers

 

I don't think any of the powers are superfluous. Though I would like to make Regeneration its own power again.

 

Try Hand attack, the definition of a pointless power. has to come pre with built in limits.

 

thats not a power, thats a joke. (ie its alreadt a limited form of another power which already exists, and is even worse than said power. str no fig)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Superfluous Powers

 

I'd definitely want Darkness around if it disappeared. Change Environment doesn't cut it there for me.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Superfluous Powers

 

I was going to mention either Strength or Hand Attack, but....

[ghost-angel]

Re: Superfluous Powers

 

Darkness (It's really a special case of Environmental Control)

Not even remotely close.

 

Darkness is Sensory Control.

[Lxndr]

Re: Superfluous Powers

 

Couldn't you just add 'blocks a sense group' to Change Environment, and thus blend the two powers? They're relatively close conceptually - CE just happens to lack one thing that Darkness has.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Superfluous Powers

 

Couldn't you just add 'blocks a sense group' to Change Environment' date=' and thus blend the two powers? They're relatively close conceptually - CE just happens to lack one thing that Darkness has.[/quote']

The idea has merit... But then you could compress the entire Hero System down into five Powers if you really set your mind on it. Creating everything with Adders/Advantages/Limitations after that:

Attack

Adjust

Defend

Move

Sense

 

But why?

 

The current system has a good mix of Various Powers and Basic Effects.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Superfluous Powers

 

Get rid of everything but EDM. If you need to damage someone just warp to a dimension where "your enemy is hurt by 4d6 normal damage".

 

Honestly, this is a pointless discussion. There's a lot of overlap out there, such as Darkness/Change Environment, Swimming/Flight (plus underwater movement), etc. But no two powers are the same. I don't really see any redundancy in the book.

 

OTOH, the HA power is funkified. I still don't get the built in limitation.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Superfluous Powers

 

OTOH' date=' the HA power is funkified. I still don't get the built in limitation.[/quote']

 

Best guess:

 

In 4th Edition, HA was simply 3pts for 1d6 (mathematically, about the same). However, some people frequently expressed campaign maxima in terms of Active Points rather than Damage Classes, so you could say "60 AP cap? Okay, 15 STR and 15d6 of Hand Attack's legal". It *did* throw off the '5 Active=1 Damage Class' rule, if that's important.

 

So, it became a 5pt power with a built-in limitation to make it 'about' 3 points afterwards, but still at +5pts per Damage Class.

[Black Rose]

Re: Superfluous Powers

 

The idea has merit... But then you could compress the entire Hero System down into five Powers if you really set your mind on it. Creating everything with Adders/Advantages/Limitations after that:

Attack

Adjust

Defend

Move

Sense

 

But why?

 

The current system has a good mix of Various Powers and Basic Effects.

Well, yes, you could, but it is an interesting mental exercise to see what powers come closest to failing the "Not Just Another Power With A Funny Hat" test.

 

Personally, since I'm not a big fan of hard'n'fast AP limits (but I do like DC limits), I could see folding Suppress into Drain. Armor is just FF with 0 END - or possibly FF is just Armor with Costs END.

[DEFCON Clown]

Re: Superfluous Powers

 

Or they are two seperate powers which are similar yet distinctly different different.

 

(I like to throw gasoline on fires.)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Superfluous Powers

 

Personally' date=' since I'm not a big fan of hard'n'fast AP limits (but I do like DC limits), I could see folding Suppress into Drain. Armor is just FF with 0 END - or possibly FF is just Armor with Costs END. [/quote']

I'd fold Supress into Dispel if I did anything.

 

I'd say Armor is FF+Advantage, that way you're dealing with Active Points in final cost instead of Real Points.

[Kenn]

Re: Superfluous Powers

 

Whether Armor is Force Field with Advantages or Force Field is Armor with Limitations gets pretty funky.

 

10 PD 10 ED Force Field is 20 points (active and real) and costs 2 END to maintain.

10 PD 10 ED Armor, costs END (-1/2) is 30 Active points and 20 real points and costs 3 END to maintain.

But, add a @ 1/2 END advantage (kicking it up to 37 active and 25 real points) one gets that END cost down to 2.

 

 

10 PD 10 ED Armor (with no modifiers) is 30 points (active and real) and has no END cost and is Persistant.

10 PD 10 ED Force Field, @ 0 END cost (+1/2), Persistant (+1/2) is 40 points (active and real).

 

Essentially, if the defense is persistant, make it armor - it's cheaper. If it costs END, make it Force Field, it's cheaper.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Superfluous Powers

 

Essentially, if the defense is persistant, make it armor - it's cheaper. If it costs END, make it Force Field, it's cheaper.

 

This is the primary reason why I'd suggest removing FF from the rules, and using Armor as the basis for all such Powers using Resistant personal DEF. The examples you provide, according the metarule 6, would require you to use FF for persistant defenses, because it's more expensive, and Armor for defenses that cost END, because it's more expensive. (this assumes that either are equally valid builds, and if not, where are their two Powers?) This makes no sense, because each of those Powers start out where you want them. Might as well just use one and leave it alone and never have to worry about it.

[Force]

Re: Superfluous Powers

 

This is the primary reason why I'd suggest removing FF from the rules' date=' and using Armor as the basis for all such Powers using Resistant personal DEF. The examples you provide, according the metarule 6, would [i']require[/i] you to use FF for persistant defenses, because it's more expensive, and Armor for defenses that cost END, because it's more expensive. (this assumes that either are equally valid builds, and if not, where are their two Powers?) This makes no sense, because each of those Powers start out where you want them. Might as well just use one and leave it alone and never have to worry about it.

 

Dust Raven wins this thread.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Superfluous Powers

 

This is the primary reason why I'd suggest removing FF from the rules' date=' and using Armor as the basis for all such Powers using Resistant personal DEF. [/quote']

 

My bias would go to removing Arnor. Force Field, PD and ED have been copnsistently priced since 1st Ed. Armor had a different pricing structure, as did Damage Resistance, at the outset. When Damage Resistance and Armor were rationalized, such that 2 rDEF cost 3 points and 2 Armor cost 3 points, Armor became superfluous and ought to have been removed. Armor is simply a SFX for increased resistant defenses.

[Kristopher]

Re: Superfluous Powers

 

Actually, none of the removals suggested make any sense to me.

 

What does make sense to me is folding Aid, Healing, and Succor back into one power.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Superfluous Powers

 

My bias would go to removing Arnor. Force Field' date=' PD and ED have been copnsistently priced since 1st Ed. Armor had a different pricing structure, as did Damage Resistance, at the outset. When Damage Resistance and Armor were rationalized, such that 2 rDEF cost 3 points and 2 Armor cost 3 points, Armor became superfluous and ought to have been removed. Armor is simply a SFX for increased resistant defenses.[/quote']

 

I'd still prefer to remove the odd item than the one that's been changed the most. FF is one of those unique mechanics that don't work like any other. We already have PD and ED and Damage Resistance. And we have Armor, that has the same effective point cost, but is bought all together. I feel we need all of these mechanics so simplicity's sake. It'd be a pain in the rear if you had to buy a kevlar vest is a compound power using PD, ED and Damage Resistance. Easier to use Armor. And we need the others because they are Characteristics or a Power that makes the default Characteristics resistant. FF on the other hand, is just different.

 

Of course, FF has a few options created in 5th Edition that make it sufficently different, mechanically, than how Armor and the other work. Well, it has one important option, the Protects Carried Objects Adder. Granted, this sounds like a super cheap version of UBO, but it does make FF work different enough that it makes (enough) sense to keep it in the rules.