Talking about doubling equipment

[JmOz]

I'm curious, the rules for doubling equipment for +5, specificaly using it for focus based attack powers, how unbalancing has it been?

[Alibear]

Re: Talking about doubling equipment

 

I don't like it, no real data on abusiveness though just my initial reaction.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Talking about doubling equipment

 

Really kinda depends on what the doubled equipment is, but in general you have to watch out for MPA abuse and stacking. So spare MP and VPP based foci are bad news, as are things that provide abilites that add to themselves (like a 10/10 forcfield generator belt or ring of +20 STR...x4)

 

Letting someone double their 1d6 OAF Sword is probably not a big deal. They could have bought a second sword for 7 pts anyhow.

 

A backup suit of OIF power armor is also not a big deal in most cases since you can't ware both of them at the same time. Just be ready for when the player decides to let another PC ware the spare suit...

 

Now, when said doubled equipment is a Green Lantern Ring or Mjolnir, well, then we have serious issues

[Thrakazog]

Re: Talking about doubling equipment

 

I restrict it to foci with one of the "real" limitations.

[OddHat]

Re: Talking about doubling equipment

 

Not all that unbalancing for attack powers or focusses with a single power. You can already use Sweep or Rapid Fire to pump out extra attacks in a phase, with Two Weapon Fighting, Rapid Attack, and levels to counter the penalties. 5 points just lets you make a MPA with no penalty instead of Rapid Firing.

 

Very potentially unbalancing for multipowers that include defense or movement powers. Now for 5 more points per slot, you get a best of both worlds mix of Multpower and Elemental Control. So, I don't allow that use.

 

Not unbalancing at all if it just means you have an extra set of Power Armor in the trunk of your car or back at the base.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Talking about doubling equipment

 

Not all that unbalancing for attack powers or focusses with a single power. You can already use Sweep or Rapid Fire to pump out extra attacks in a phase, with Two Weapon Fighting, Rapid Attack, and levels to counter the penalties. 5 points just lets you make a MPA with no penalty instead of Rapid Firing.

 

Very potentially unbalancing for multipowers that include defense or movement powers. Now for 5 more points per slot, you get a best of both worlds mix of Multpower and Elemental Control. So, I don't allow that use.

 

Not unbalancing at all if it just means you have an extra set of Power Armor in the trunk of your car or back at the base.

 

I'd say easy to abuse and pretty easy to police. My classic example of abuse is 5 points for Extra limbs (he has 64 arms), and the Magic Ring that sends out a 12d6 EB, 16 charges, doubled 9 times (45 points; 512 rings) so he has one on each finger, plus the Magic thumb Ring (Force Field: +1 PD, ED, PowDef, Flash Def and Mental Defense, 0 END) doubled 7 times (128 rings) to have one on each thumb, for example. Total force field 128; MPA for 512 separate 12d6 attacks. Pretty easy to abuse, but tough for the GM to miss.

 

I like game group police. "Guys, how are we going to handle the "multiply your foci for +5" rule? I'm OK with any approach you want to take, but remember that the same rules will apply for NPC's and PC's alike". I suspect the ultimate answer will be that the doubling should only be for backups, not items all used at the same time.

[OddHat]

Re: Talking about doubling equipment

 

I'd say easy to abuse and pretty easy to police. My classic example of abuse is 5 points for Extra limbs (he has 64 arms), and the Magic Ring that sends out a 12d6 EB, 16 charges, doubled 9 times (45 points; 512 rings) so he has one on each finger, plus the Magic thumb Ring (Force Field: +1 PD, ED, PowDef, Flash Def and Mental Defense, 0 END) doubled 7 times (128 rings) to have one on each thumb, for example. Total force field 128; MPA for 512 separate 12d6 attacks. Pretty easy to abuse, but tough for the GM to miss.

 

I like game group police. "Guys, how are we going to handle the "multiply your foci for +5" rule? I'm OK with any approach you want to take, but remember that the same rules will apply for NPC's and PC's alike". I suspect the ultimate answer will be that the doubling should only be for backups, not items all used at the same time.

 

Pretty much agreed. From a similar abilities point of view, the abuse potential starts increasing fast after the second doubling, but is easy enough to spot. As I said above, backup power armor in your car trunk is not abusive.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Talking about doubling equipment

 

Pretty much agreed. From a similar abilities point of view' date=' the abuse potential starts increasing fast after the second doubling, but is easy enough to spot. As I said above, backup power armor in your car trunk is not abusive.[/quote']

 

OTOH, four extra suits of powered armor handed out to your teammates...

[OddHat]

Re: Talking about doubling equipment

 

OTOH' date=' four extra suits of powered armor handed out to your teammates...[/quote']

 

Which is where we, as GMs, say "No".

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Talking about doubling equipment

 

I haven't allowed the multiplier at all for regular characters in my campaigns, because of the Focus restriction for using it. It doesn't seem fair to me that someone can take a Limitation meant to restrict the use of a Power, and save points on it, but that Limitation suddenly opens up the possibility of paying a few points to multiply the Power exponentially; while people who don't choose that restriction don't have that option.

 

I have allowed the multiplier for vehicle equipment, including weapons, partly because not doing so would significantly change many published vehicle writeups. However, I do require that vehicle weapons bought with the multiplier have individual gunner characters manning each one if they're to be fired simultaneously.

[Edsel]

Re: Talking about doubling equipment

 

I restrict it to foci with one of the "real" limitations.

This is generally how I handle it in my Dark Champions campaign. If a PC want two of the same gun he can get it which ever way is cheaper. (Either buy the two separately or use the 5 point rule). However we use this rule with pretty much all real world equipment whether or not it has the real limitation on it. Since my campaign is heroic and low powered (50+50 disad characters) this has never really been a problem.

[Edsel]

Re: Talking about doubling equipment

 

OTOH' date=' four extra suits of powered armor handed out to your teammates...[/quote'] This is definately a no no. Equipment bought with the 5 point rule is strictly to allow the individual to carry more than one of the same item. Only in extenuating circumstances will your team mate get to use your stuff.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Talking about doubling equipment

 

My blanket answer is 'no more abusive than XD Movement (to hell) Useable As Attack, Desolidification with an NND-Does Body-Affects Physical World attack, or spending all your character points on 50pts of Lightning Reflexes and 300 points of AE Killing Attack, or Space Life Support, an Ego Attack, and scads of Telescopic N-Ray vision so you can blast villains from the moon, or 'Detect Plot, Discriminatory, Analyze', or 'Detect Vulnerability' accompanied by an Energy Blast with full VSE.'

 

HERO lends itself to abusive builds because of its open-ended nature. It's up to the players to be responsible enough not to abuse the system, and for the GM to drop THE HAMMA if someone starts to wriggle too far out of line.

[Gary]

Re: Talking about doubling equipment

 

Pretty much agreed. From a similar abilities point of view' date=' the abuse potential starts increasing fast after the second doubling, but is easy enough to spot. As I said above, backup power armor in your car trunk is not abusive.[/quote']

 

Even that backup power armor is quasi-abusive. Part of the reason the PA character gets such a major point break is that he's expected to be without his armor some of the time. If he has a backup suit, this mitigates many of the situations where his limitation should be in effect.

 

If you save 100+ pts because of a focus and it costs a mere 5 to mitigate many of the situations where the limitation should be in effect, it seems to be quite a bargain to me.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Talking about doubling equipment

 

I'm with the "insurance" camp. The power armor suit thing you make is bought as a Focus, custom built for your character, blah blah - oh, you want Jeanie to wear it? Jeanie won't fit. She's a girl, that suit is built for a man. All the wrong plumbing, na'h mean?

 

One of my PCs just asked this, and I told him straight up - you can spend the 5 points as "insurance" in the event something catastrophic happens to suit one, you'll always have a spare, but that's all those five points can be used for.

 

I don't think I'd let someone drop five to duplicate the Lantern's Ring, or Glamdring, and the One Ring, or the tape of The Ring, or...

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Talking about doubling equipment

 

It's also used for vehicles with multiple weapons. A big starship with many zappificating guns sticking out. In this case I would only allow multple ones to be used at the same time only if there is a person manning each gun (or a computer with the appropriate ability).

 

And there's also a problem here (seen in TUV): the +5 points is the same no matter what the thing is or how many points it's built on. An extra pair of night vision goggles or an extra nuclear bomb both cost the same +5 points.

 

There's at least one published starship in TUV that has something like:

 

100 pts. - Big Honking Gun

50 pts. - Secondary Gun

20 pts. - Total of 16 Secondary Guns

So you get one big'un and a bunch of smaller ones, which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, but based on the doubling rule, why would you do this when you could have had 16 Big Honking Guns, and not bother with the little ones and save 50 points!

[casualplayer]

Re: Talking about doubling equipment

 

If I buy all my powers and characteristics as foci, can I have 1 level of Duplication for 5 points? To me, having a spare set of Iron Man armor around for 5 points makes about as much sense as having a spare Vision around for 5 points.

 

If we have to have the rule at all it should be an Advantage (+1/4 for each x2) so that expensive powers and builds cost more to double and cheap stuff is cheap.

[JmOz]

Re: Talking about doubling equipment

 

As an advantage I would say it should start as a reduction of the Foci limitation (+1/4 or +1/2 per x2)

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Talking about doubling equipment

 

As an advantage I would say it should start as a reduction of the Foci limitation (+1/4 or +1/2 per x2)

 

I'd say that works. Two OAFs=3/4 Advantage, if I'm reading you right? Kind of like the way Charges scale ... interesting. It makes two-gun fighting feasible without making it overcheap or overexpensive.

 

Though I still kind of like just employing GM control and player responsibility.

[JmOz]

Re: Talking about doubling equipment

 

Something like that yah, I go back and forth on if +1/4 or +1/2 would be better steps, but you got the basics of what I am talking about

[OddHat]

Re: Talking about doubling equipment

 

The reduced limit rather than adder system works for personal equipment, but "Gun of Opportunity" is already ony an OIF rather than OAF. If I were to use that, I'd just say "Build your Power Armor as an OIF with backups for a total -1/4 rather than -1/2. Tony Stark style, you almost always have a backup suit stashed in the lab."

 

For vehicles, it gets trickier. The rule is in place for Star Hero more than Galactic Champions or Champions; in that setting, I don't see it as unbalanced in actual play. As the GM, I'm not making my players pay points for a Star Destroyer anyway, and I'm approving all designs or writing them myself. Points are still helpful as a rough guide, but they become less important. If you are using Armor as Vehicle in a Champions campaign, or allowing player controlled vehicles purchased with points, it becomes more of an issue.

[Markdoc]

Re: Talking about doubling equipment

 

I don't use it.

 

As I understand it, it is intended for backups. The first time I ever saw it used was in the old megapointage Seeker who had an attack defined as "xd6 HA, OAF, Sai" and then "+5 points - another Sai"

 

So buying an extra blaster pistol for 5 points does not give you an extra attack with that extra blaster. It gives you an extra blaster you can use if the first one goes buh-bye.

 

So I really can't see the point. This sounds like part of the focus limitation.

 

For me, if a character defines his autofire RKA as "he shoots really fast" with his OAF pistol and another defines it as "Two-fisted john woo-style gunplay" with two OAF pistols, it is simply a matter of special effects. Based on those special effects, gunfighter #1 loses his OAF, if it is successfully grabbed, whereas gunfighter #2 would perhaps be able to retain reduced effectiveness - it'd take two grabs or a grab affecting both arms to completely disarm him (I'd allow a Confessor-style grab - from Astro city - in which he grabs a gun with either hand to disarm #2 as a simple grab, as well: it is an OAF). In contrast, Gunman #1 could swing from a rope and shoot at full effectiveness, whereas gunman #2 could not (unless he's got a prehensile tail ).

 

If gunman #3 wants to carry 15 pistols (or even, say 3 or 4), so he can't easily be disarmed, then I'd require he take OIF, not OAF.

 

As for putting multiple weapons on a vehicle, I've never understood why duplication was not used.

 

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Talking about doubling equipment

 

So buying an extra blaster pistol for 5 points does not give you an extra attack with that extra blaster. It gives you an extra blaster you can use if the first one goes buh-bye.

 

I'm unsure this is really the intent of the rule. That is the interpretation I read into it initially, but aren't there published characters with Sword and Another Sword, 5 points, who use these in MPA's? Perhaps these characters should instead be buying bonuses to Sweep (rrapid attack if it's ranged) to get two attacks in a half phase at no OCV/DCV penalty.

[Thrakazog]

Re: Talking about doubling equipment

 

For me' date=' if a character defines his autofire RKA as "he shoots really fast" with his OAF pistol and another defines it as "Two-fisted john woo-style gunplay" with two OAF pistols, it is simply a matter of special effects. Based on those special effects, gunfighter #1 loses his OAF, if it is successfully grabbed, whereas gunfighter #2 would perhaps be able to retain reduced effectiveness - it'd take two grabs or a grab affecting both arms to completely disarm him (I'd allow a Confessor-style grab - from Astro city - in which he grabs a gun with either hand to disarm #2 as a simple grab, as well: it is an OAF). In contrast, Gunman #1 could swing from a rope and shoot at full effectiveness, whereas gunman #2 could not (unless he's got a prehensile tail ).[/quote']

 

Funny, I have a PC using two pistols, bought as such:

 

Multipower: Two pistiols, all slots OAF

u1 - Blazing Away, 2d6 RKA, 3-shot autofire, req 2-hands

u2 - Single Shot, 1d6 RKA

u3 - Aimed Shot, 1d6+1 RKA, +3 OCV, extra time full phase

Etc.

 

I never thought about the fact that, as shown, a single disarm would remove the entire MP. It's never come up.

 

*look at PC sheet on drawing board*

 

Crap!

[Markdoc]

Re: Talking about doubling equipment

 

Funny, I have a PC using two pistols, bought as such:

 

Multipower: Two pistiols, all slots OAF

u1 - Blazing Away, 2d6 RKA, 3-shot autofire, req 2-hands

u2 - Single Shot, 1d6 RKA

u3 - Aimed Shot, 1d6+1 RKA, +3 OCV, extra time full phase

Etc.

 

I never thought about the fact that, as shown, a single disarm would remove the entire MP. It's never come up.

 

*look at PC sheet on drawing board*

 

Crap!

 

Yep, I have an old, old PC (father Azaell, an evil-fighting Catholic priest - sort of a modern day inquisitor) who had:

 

33 Astonishing gun-tricks multipower All powers take the limitations OAF, 32 uses in 4 clips of 8, Beam attack (-1/4), Can't be pushed (-1/4). Defined as two-fisted .45 automagnums, John Woo style)

3 2d6 RKA, area affect, selective, autofire 5

3 30 STR Telekinesis (only to shoot things around, -1/2)

3 2d6 RKA, +1/2 variable advantage, autofire 5

 

And he has been disarmed in precisely that fashion before, meaning he has to fall back on his martial arts. That, or summoning angels

 

cheers, Mark