Campaign Limits: what's your formula?

[pointyman2000]

Hey guys,

 

Seeing that I've been running a teen champions game for a while now, I've had a chance to observe first-hand the effects of an improperly started game. All I told the players was to use 150 base points 100 points from disadvantages and that they have a 50 active point limit.

 

Now I find my players have managed to start an arms race revolving around CVs, and Def/rDef. Because of this (and some fairly significant twinkery such as the Witching Cloak) I've realized that the more munchkin players have found means to make themselves nigh invulnerable. Stacked defenses, hiding inside summoned vehicles while piling points on OCV and ECV levels for mental attacks, it's running at bit silly.

 

So now I come to the boards, humbled by my experience and looking to use HERO for other campaigns. Given my experience what kind of point caps do you guys use for your games? Do you stick to those given by the book? or do you alter them? Once the campaign starts, do you raise the caps to the next step up, or do you basically let them advance however they choose, as long as they don't go overboard in one stat or another?

[atlascott]

Re: Campaign Limits: what's your formula?

 

The most important rule is: all characters have to be approved when they are created, and when any extra points are spent. This will take you a few minutes per game session, but is really solid advice I got off of these very boards.

 

you want offensive powers to max out in the neighborhood of 10 or 15 points higher than defenses. Specials defenses have to be very, very limited. Character conception, not combat effectiveness, should drive xp expenditures.

 

Good luck!

[Trebuchet]

Re: Campaign Limits: what's your formula?

 

Two very basic things:

 

1) Don't step on another character's schtick.

 

2) Maximum Damage <= (20 - SPD)

 

This seems to work fairly well to keep characters within shouting distance so far as combat effectiveness goes. (For a Teen Champions game, you might want to use a lower number; perhaps 14 or 16.) But nothing will substitute for close GM scrutiny and a willingness to say "No" when you feel a Power or group of Powers is unbalancing in your game. Stacking, whether it be attacks or defenses, can be a real problem in any campaign if unchecked.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Campaign Limits: what's your formula?

 

I started my players out with 100 + 100 points and a 30 Active Point cap. That applied to things like Characteristics, too, though I had to make an exception for Dex. (For example, no STR above 30, but since the base 10 Dex is already worth 30 points, no more than 30 points could be SPENT in Dex).

 

And for layered stuff... nothing can "stack" past the limit, and I generally say that defenses have an Active cap of 1/2 whatever the max is. (So with a 30 AP cap... that's 6d6 on an attack like an Energy Blast, and thus a 15 point AP on a defense, like Energy Defense. Thus, on average, 6d6 does 21 Stun and 6 BODY, so no BODY and 6 Stun get through the defense. That seems to keep things pretty well balanced.)

 

I started them as freshmen, and I figured that by the end of the school year they should be up to about 230 points total and an AP cap of 40-45.

 

From there, what I'm figuring (and how I built the upperclassmen NPCs) is roughly:

 

Sophomores start their sophomore year with: 230 points total (100 base, 100 Disads, 30 xp), Active Point Cap of 40-45 on any one power, characteristic, framework pool, etc. Most Skills should probably be 11- or 12- at max, though one focus skill for that student might be as high as 14- or 15-.

 

Juniors start their junior year with: 260 points total (100 Base, 110 Disads, 50 xp), Active Point Cap of 50-55 on any one power, characteristic, framework pool, etc. Most Skills should probably be 12- or 13- at max, though one focus skill for that student might be as high as 15-.

 

Seniors start their senior year with: 300 points total (100 Base, 125 Disads, 75 xp), Active Point Cap of 60-70 on any one power, characteristic, framework pool, etc. Most Skills should probably be 13- at max, though one focus skill for that student might be as high as 15-.

 

 

...and that by the end of their senior year they should be 350 point characters with an AP cap of 75.

 

Or, in another words... very much like most starting Champions superheroes, save they have fewer base points and a buttload of experience.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Campaign Limits: what's your formula?

 

This is actually a problem I'm having this very moment - the caps I've set so far are fairly generic (10 rDEF, max, and so on) but everyone is ignoring those, anyway. I think one of the things I need to do is really just put my foot down and say "Guess what? The train stops here."

 

The big thing I like in d20 over HERO (although you can jury rig it easily enough) is that certain types of DEF don't stack, which keeps things in check. I'm just going to go back to stringent enforcement of my own common sense.

 

Congrats! If someone has a rocket launcher it is not recommended that you stand there and take it.

[Eosin]

Re: Campaign Limits: what's your formula?

 

SOmetimes you just get bit by players accidentally exploiting a hole or abusing the system.

 

Summoned Vehicle = way bad abuse. Actually, a vehicle used as armor at all in a supers game is just plain wrong.

 

What to do? I express the cavaet that all characters are subject to re-build if the player of the GM find that for some reason it just doesn't work. Example - one of the PCs bought +8 Range Levels with Perception since he was a robot. Not a problem, said character also bought Find Weakness with his robotic brain. Combine both of those with a studly RKA with Range Mods and you effectively quarter (or more) the defenders armor at huge range (hidden DCV) without any penalty to hit. On very few points the character turned into an unstoppable-untouchable killing machine.

 

We sat down and worked out the math so that Find Weakness would now take the Range Penalties.

 

Basically, the point is that if players are free to build as they desire then the GM must retain the right to come in and edit things for play balance.

 

As to the "arms race;" that is a player problem and not an issue of character build (unless you build NPCs that routinely outclass the PCs and they feel that they need the CV bump to be in the game). Solve the issue(s) with the players and the character issue will go away.

[pointyman2000]

Re: Campaign Limits: what's your formula?

 

Summoned Vehicle = way bad abuse. Actually, a vehicle used as armor at all in a supers game is just plain wrong.

 

Yeah, I should have read the summon rules more closely, when this came up I was alarmed.

 

Thanks for the advice guys,

 

Do you have any sort of ratios that you follow as to what Def caps work with what Damage Class Caps? Been thinking of what would happen if I say tweaked active points up (say 80) yet retain Damage Class caps at say 10 DCs, and Defenses at 12/10

 

Would it still work?

[Marketeer]

Re: Campaign Limits: what's your formula?

 

Yeah, I should have read the summon rules more closely, when this came up I was alarmed.

 

Thanks for the advice guys,

 

Do you have any sort of ratios that you follow as to what Def caps work with what Damage Class Caps? Been thinking of what would happen if I say tweaked active points up (say 80) yet retain Damage Class caps at say 10 DCs, and Defenses at 12/10

 

Would it still work?

 

It is doable and can be balanced in theory, but it leads to some significant concerns around Advantages that do not add DCs, but make powers much deadlier.

 

Area Effect, for example, greatly increases the accuracy of a power without raising DCs. Same with 0 End. You will have to watch out for players who take advantage of that to up the combat efficiency of their characters.

 

This is less of a problem if everyone is munchkinny, simply because you can enhance the opposition to compensate. The real problem that can arise is that some are munchkins, some players are not, in which case you can have difficulties keeping the characters balanced in comparison with each other.

[Mike W]

Re: Campaign Limits: what's your formula?

 

Hey guys,

 

Seeing that I've been running a teen champions game for a while now, I've had a chance to observe first-hand the effects of an improperly started game. All I told the players was to use 150 base points 100 points from disadvantages and that they have a 50 active point limit.

 

Now I find my players have managed to start an arms race revolving around CVs, and Def/rDef. Because of this (and some fairly significant twinkery such as the Witching Cloak) I've realized that the more munchkin players have found means to make themselves nigh invulnerable. Stacked defenses, hiding inside summoned vehicles while piling points on OCV and ECV levels for mental attacks, it's running at bit silly.

 

So now I come to the boards, humbled by my experience and looking to use HERO for other campaigns. Given my experience what kind of point caps do you guys use for your games? Do you stick to those given by the book? or do you alter them? Once the campaign starts, do you raise the caps to the next step up, or do you basically let them advance however they choose, as long as they don't go overboard in one stat or another?

 

 

I've been in games that used formulas before and even run them. As a result, I'm not a big fan anymore. Even though every power that costs the same is theoretically supposed to be as powerful as the next one, it doesn't work that way. You need to look at the sum total. Also, try to set a campaign wide power level sheet. For example, the STR chart starts at the bottom(5 STR or so) and go up to the strongest guy in the campaign. Make sure that the overwhelming majority of people who use STR as their attack are within 3 or 4 steps(say 40-60 STR) on the chart, and do the same for other powers, CVs, DEX, etc. Then make the characters stay within those boundaries. Also, try not to let anyone get above average in more than two of the following: DC, CV, SPD, DEF. Remember, 4 steps is an overwhelming advantage. Having a OCV 4 higher than your opponent gives you a 15- hit roll(better than 90%). If your DCV is also 4 better than their OCV, you only get hit on 7-(about 25%). As far as DEF goes, average DEF should be such that an average attack does about 10-12 STUN. So if the average attack is 10D6(35 STUN) the average DEF should be 23-25. If characters want to be tougher, have them buy an extra 10 STUN. It lets them take an extra hit without forcing you to up the damage the villains do(which then forces the other players to up their DEF, and so on; in my experience, this is how the arms race usually starts).

 

If your players have gotten too far out of control, you may have to ground the campaign and restart it. Explain to them why you're doing it though and try to get them not to munchkin so much. But it's also on you not to approve things that are going to get out of hand. Don't let them buy everything they want if it's going to unbalance the game. Champs should not be an arms race or a game where success is based on who can crunch numbers the best.

[pointyman2000]

Re: Campaign Limits: what's your formula?

 

Snippage of good advice

 

I'm pondering the feasibility of doing a re-calibration, giving everyone a chance to retool their characters. I love the HERO system like anything but I honestly wished I could have seen that I'd have to audit characters every time one of the munchkins hands in his character sheet.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Campaign Limits: what's your formula?

 

Yeah, I should have read the summon rules more closely, when this came up I was alarmed.

 

Thanks for the advice guys,

 

Do you have any sort of ratios that you follow as to what Def caps work with what Damage Class Caps? Been thinking of what would happen if I say tweaked active points up (say 80) yet retain Damage Class caps at say 10 DCs, and Defenses at 12/10

 

Would it still work?

 

When designing characters for a given Champions campaign, here are a few rough guidelines I tend to follow in my games. I hope they're of some use to you:

 

Among superheroes in a team, the range of Dexterity between lowest and highest DEX characters should be no more than 10, e.g. DEX 20 - 30;

 

Most character Speeds should be within 2 points of each other, such as SPD 4 - 6;

 

Maximum OCV for all characters' attacks, accounting for DEX and Skill Levels, should be within 2 points of each other, 3 at the most;

 

Damage Classes should also be within a range of 3 for most characters, e.g. 9 - 11.

 

Total Defense (natural + Armor + Force Field etc.) should be between 1.5 and 2.5 times the Damage Class of the average attack in the campaign. So, if the average attack is 10d6, Defenses should run between 15 and 25, with most centering around 20;

 

Characters hit with the equivalent of their own largest attack should be able to absorb a number of consecutive hits equivalent to 1/3 - 1/2 their possible Phases, without taking a Recovery, before being Knocked Out. For example, a SPD 6 character with a 10d6 attack should be able to take 2 or 3 10D6 hits before going down;

 

I tend to trade off DEX, SPD and CV against Defense and Attack size. For example, a character with the lowest DEX, SPD and OCV will usually also have the highest DC attack and Defenses.

[caris]

Re: Campaign Limits: what's your formula?

 

I'm pondering the feasibility of doing a re-calibration' date=' giving everyone a chance to retool their characters. I love the HERO system like anything but I honestly wished I could have seen that I'd have to audit characters every time one of the munchkins hands in his character sheet. [/quote']

 

This actually tends to happen in any system where the players have any control over their characters creation. Munchkins will by definition try to squeeze in every advantage they can.

 

Having said that, I tend to use very soft limits, but tend to compare things: DCV to Def, OCV to Damage, SPD to END spent. I like to see these things balance out. I find that these tend to be the most usual places to see problems. Don't just look at the obvious parts of it. As Eosin pointed out there are often things that can make the numbers a little different. For example large amounts of STUN, a high BODY and a high CON can off set a relatively low Def. A multi-power with just two or three attacks that can by-pass ED and PD (NND, AVLD, etc.) can become horribly effective, because they often have at least one attack no one has a defense against. Does the character have skills/powers that work synergisticly in some potentially overly effective manner.

[Lucius]

Re: Campaign Limits: what's your formula?

 

I thought Find Weakness had range penalties by default?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Some days I can't even find the palindromedary

[Rapier]

Re: Campaign Limits: what's your formula?

 

I started my players out with 100 + 100 points and a 30 Active Point cap. That applied to things like Characteristics' date=' too, though I had to make an exception for Dex. (For example, no STR above 30, but since the base 10 Dex is already worth 30 points, no more than 30 points could be SPENT in Dex).[/quote']

 

I've stated time and again that I hate Caps and Rules of X. However, they do have their place. Dump them for Champions, but lower powered games need some kind of guideline. How else will your players know how powerful to build their characters?

 

You are pretty close to the numbers I use for my Monster Hunter campaign. I started them between 200 and 250pts. APs for powers are in the 30 - 40 range. DEF is on par with attacks (5 - 10). We aren't using any kind of NCM, but most characters are sticking pretty close to it.

 

Oh, I deleted the rest but let me see if I can recall:

- If someone is gonna hide in a summoned car, you give villains Indirect or Mental attacks (or perhaps just Unusual Senses) that will get around it. You stack each combat with 4 such villains until the character gets the hint and stops hiding in his car.

 

- Do not ever forget that you are the GM. Tell them no. It's easy to understand how it happens. Low powered characters have a couple of small time DEF powers. They stack them to get near the top of the limit. Then they realise that if they can stack them that high...why not higher? Sit them down and tell them they are creeping. There are two choices. One, they can tone it down and lower their points. Two, you can start bringing in characters from a regular 350 or 400 point Champions game for them to fight (it's not like you need to worry about points with villains). At the very least the villains should be on the same power level with the characters (and I actually prefer them to be slightly above the PCs level).

[Doc Samson]

Re: Campaign Limits: what's your formula?

 

We basically use the chart from 5ER pg. 28, with a few small modifications. Stacking does not let the PCs exceed these levels. For example, in a 250 pt. campaign (with a max AP of 50)...

 

- No PC can have higher tha 25 PD or ED, no matter what combination of powers they take (we allow this to be Resistant, Hardened, ect. as an exception to the above).

- Attack Damage is capped at 10d6, or less with advantages (STR + HA cannot exceed 10d6 for example).

- Max SPD is 6 (we kind of look at this like 5 SPD is 50 AP and you get 1 for free).

- Max OCV and DCV would be 9 (so a DEX 20 character can have 2 CSLs and Dex 26 Char can't have any). The OCV limit auto regulates our max DEX to 26 (which also fits the 50 AP limit if you don't count the 10 base DEX).

- We usually do not limit skill point totals or max skill levels as we encourage character growth in these areas (though if anyone abused it we probably would).

[bwdemon]

Re: Campaign Limits: what's your formula?

 

My basic rule looks at expected damage per turn as a guideline.

 

1. Approximate your game's average DCV.

2. Determine the character's OCV with a given attack.

3. Using the above, determine the probability of hitting with that attack.

4. Approximate your game's average defense (as appropriate for the attack).

5. Determine the attack's average gross damage.

6. Subtract the average defense from the average gross damage to get average net damage.

7. Multiply average net damage by probability of hitting (#3 above) to get expected damage.

8. Multiply expected damage by SPD to get expected damage per turn.

 

So long as all players are reasonably equal in this regard, the game remains adequately balanced. You can set a cap, if you so wish, to keep a game within a certain power level. If you want faster combat, you can raise the cap. If you want more cinematic combat, you can lower the cap.

 

I allow deviations from the guideline on the defensive side of things. A weaker defense can justify a stronger offense and vice versa, but I am not likely to allow significant deviations. "Glass-jawed cannon" and "limp-wristed turtle" are generally not good Champions concepts.

 

As with all such systems, it can be gamed. For example, a 12 SPD character with a weakish attack may qualify under the guideline, but may not be appropriate for the game (be sure to look at his move through!). Also a 2 SPD character can sacrifice some offense to get near-impervious defenses and still have a crazy powerful attack. I recommend setting a SPD range appropriate to the game (I like 4-8 for CU games) and not allowing deviations from said range (at least at the start).

[Thrakazog]

Re: Campaign Limits: what's your formula?

 

Our GM uses a spreadsheet to calculate a combat index number. The spreadsheet takes everything into account: CV, defenses, attack power, etc., and comes up with a number which can easily be compared to everyone else on the team. As long as everyone's index falls within a given range, we're good.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Campaign Limits: what's your formula?

 

I've stated time and again that I hate Caps and Rules of X. However' date=' they do have their place. Dump them for Champions, but lower powered games need some kind of guideline. How else will your players know how powerful to build their characters?[/quote']

Well, he was talking specifically about a Teen Champions game, so I posted the guidelines I use in my Teen Champions game. The caps, etc. are there and so low because I wanted the characters to be low-powered and to grow into their abilities over four years of high school.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Campaign Limits: what's your formula?

 

I thought Find Weakness had range penalties by default?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Some days I can't even find the palindromedary

 

It does, the same as the standard Range Modifier, as per the description of the Power in the 5E rulebook.

[Eosin]

Re: Campaign Limits: what's your formula?

 

I thought Find Weakness had range penalties by default?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Some days I can't even find the palindromedary

 

It does but if you buy bonuses to offset your ranged penalties for perception then you don't take range penalties. It's an ugly combo in games with low movements.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Campaign Limits: what's your formula?

 

It does but if you buy bonuses to offset your ranged penalties for perception then you don't take range penalties. It's an ugly combo in games with low movements.

 

If you mean general bonuses to Perception, then that's not exactly true. From the FAQ:

 

Question: If a character has Enhanced Perception that applies to all Sense Groups, does it improve Find Weakness rolls? If not, can he use them to cancel the Range Modifier for Find Weakness?

 

Answer: No, and no. Since Find Weakness has a specific, defined way of buying bonuses to the roll, buy those. If the character just wants the bonuses to cancel the Range Modifier, he can apply a -1 Limitation to the purchased bonus.

[Eosin]

Re: Campaign Limits: what's your formula?

 

If you mean general bonuses to Perception, then that's not exactly true. From the FAQ:

 

Question: If a character has Enhanced Perception that applies to all Sense Groups, does it improve Find Weakness rolls? If not, can he use them to cancel the Range Modifier for Find Weakness?

 

Answer: No, and no. Since Find Weakness has a specific, defined way of buying bonuses to the roll, buy those. If the character just wants the bonuses to cancel the Range Modifier, he can apply a -1 Limitation to the purchased bonus.

 

 

Well, the example sited above uses 4th ed rules and at the time I don't believe Cybergames was answering any questions. At this time, I can officially say that the combo does not work in my game and the rules in Revised are fairly clear on it (now that I looked in 5th Revised).

 

Rules creep, it happens to everyone. Sorta like bladder control issues.

[pointyman2000]

Re: Campaign Limits: what's your formula?

 

Well' date=' he was talking specifically about a [i']Teen Champions[/i] game, so I posted the guidelines I use in my Teen Champions game. The caps, etc. are there and so low because I wanted the characters to be low-powered and to grow into their abilities over four years of high school.

 

And they've been a great help, Dr. Anomaly

 

It gives me an idea as to how to raise the caps as the game continues as well.

 

oh, cool yearbook, btw

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Campaign Limits: what's your formula?

 

And they've been a great help, Dr. Anomaly

 

It gives me an idea as to how to raise the caps as the game continues as well.

 

oh, cool yearbook, btw

Thanks... glad to have been of help. And I hope one day to actually have the write-ups for the Non-Traditionals done...

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Campaign Limits: what's your formula?

 

For a standard 350 game, I start at 12 DC for attacks, about 30/30 for defenses, not too much else past that. I generally 'encourage' at least 10-15% of the character's points be spent on noncombat skills.

 

After that, anything goes. If someone reallllllly wants to sink all their points into STR, they're free to do so; however, they will have to be prepared for the ramifications of that decision (such as being the main target to take out, for having a 90 STR when everybody else just has 12 DC attacks).

 

"So, you're fighting Ant-Man, Night Thrasher, Rocket Racer, and Thor. Who do you take out first?"