The VPP - my bugbear. Please help!

[Haven Walkur]

Will somebody please explain, simply and clearly, how the Variable Power Pool works, and how to use it? I've never really understood it, practically or philosophically.

 

In recent years, I've just been making a practice of avoiding the VPP entirely.

 

But now, I'm trying to build a HERO character for a game that uses prefab powers -- and some of them employ the eeeevil VPP! Oh no! Please help.

[Robyn]

Re: The VPP - my bugbear. Please help!

 

Will somebody please explain' date=' simply and clearly, how the Variable Power Pool works, and how to use it? I've never really understood it, practically or philosophically.[/quote']

 

A catch-all category for powers that your character should have, when you won't know them in advance. It saves you from having to pay for new powers with XP points (or make a Power Tricks roll) before you can use them.

 

It is basically a "do-anything" power, within a limited set of conditions. Those conditions are usually the SFX unifying your powers, like "ice" (letting the character do anything that could conceivably be achieved through ice).

 

The only other limit, really, is the number of points in the VPP.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: The VPP - my bugbear. Please help!

 

Say you've got a VPP of 50. You need a Control cost on that (kind of the surcharge for having so much flexibility), so that's another 50%, for 75 points total.

 

Now, you can use any power up to 50 Active Points. Pretty cool. But it gets better.

 

Throw some Limitations on that power, and you can use two or more powers up to 50 Active Points each, so long as their total real point cost is equal to or less than 50.

 

If you put a Limitation on the VPP itself, rather than a given power within the VPP, then your VPP will cost less on your character sheet, but all powers bought with the VPP have that Limitation automatically.

 

Not too difficult. I would suggest, though, that you work out ahead of time some common tricks you envision this character using, because it's a pain to do on the fly.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The VPP - my bugbear. Please help!

 

from an earlier thread on multipowers:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=890486&postcount=41

 

I remember having a discussion on this same subject back in the 80's and the ONLY real argument put forth on behalf of the 'Real-Point' side was the fact that the 1st edition of Champions wrote it this way.

 

However, as others have already pointed out, the next reprint fixed this omission mistake promptly.

 

The way I try to explain the spirit of the rules behind Multipowers is to include VPP's and the Variable Advantage as 3 similar tools that can be used to describe one Meta-Power of Special Effect X.

 

Example:

1. 87 Special Effect X Attack: Energy Blast 10d6, Variable Advantage (+1/2 Advantages; Limited Group of Advantages: +3/4)
   • [87 Total Points]
     
   • This is the simplest to judge the effectiveness of and functions like a 3-4 ultra slot multipower with the limitation that it can't be used without SOME type of advantage.
     
   • Optionally, you can remove the "Limited" verbage and increase the cost to 100 Total Points

[*]75 Special Effect X: Multipower, 75-point reserve

• 7u Energy Blast 10d6, Random Advantage #1 (+1/2)
  
• 7u Energy Blast 10d6, Random Advantage #2 (+1/2)
  
• 7u Energy Blast 15d6
  
• [96+ Total Points, or more depending on the number of different slots purchased]
  
• Better than Variable Advantage option since it allows for non-advantaged attack.

[*]130 Special Effect X: Variable Power Pool, 75 base + 74 control cost, Cosmic(+2) (186 Active Points); all slots Limited Class Of Powers Available Very Limited (Special Effect X: -1)

• [130 Total Points]
  
• This functions as an Unlimited # of slots Multipower.
  
• It is more powerfull And Cost Effective than option 2 as soon as you have more than 7 slots.

• Special Effect X can be replaced with anything (fire, cold, electricity, etc..).
  
• Random Advantage can be replaced with any (+1/2) Advantage or combination of two different (+1/4) Advantages.

All 3 methods are perfectly valid ways to construct an attack that has an effective 75 active point cost and has several different ways it can be used. Each version is a balance of Cost Effectiveness VS. Usefullness.

 

HM

[CBikle]

Re: The VPP - my bugbear. Please help!

 

Mechanically, a VPP has two point ceilings (active points and real points).

 

In a 60 pt. VPP, no individual power can be more than 60 active points and as a group, all the powers in the pool are limited to 60 real points total.

 

Here's an example of a VPP with a starting configuration:

 

60: Cosmic Wand

15(30) Control Cost (OAF: wand)

 

1 Cosmic Blast: (12d6 EB; OAF)

[60 active and using 30 of the VPP's "Real Point" reserve]

 

2 Cosmic Flight (15" flight; OAF)

[30 active and using 15 "Real Points"]

 

3 Cosmic Shield (10/10 Force Field- hardened and 1/2 end; OAF)

[30 active and 15 "real"]

 

The "real" cost of the powers in the pool equal 60 (30+15+15) and none of the powers exceeds the active pt. limit (the EB couldn't go to 14d6 which would make it a 70 pt. active pt. power.

[ghost-angel]

Re: The VPP - my bugbear. Please help!

 

All the others have done a good job of describing the VPP. But here's another take.

 

Once you've determined the size of the VPP Size (the Pool Points) build all your Powers in it normally.

 

Now; The Active Points of the Powes inside a VPP cannot exceed the Pool Points.

 

Next step is: How many Powers can I have active at once?

 

Add up all the Real Points of the Powers you want active - the total may not exceed the Pool Points.

[TheRavenIs]

Re: The VPP - my bugbear. Please help!

 

Yes what the man with the Briefcase Full of Rules said, VPP's are both easy and hard to deal with but in the end they may be more expensive that do allow incridble flexibility.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The VPP - my bugbear. Please help!

 

Here is a graphic I made that might help you:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=20001&d=1133817466

[TheRavenIs]

Re: The VPP - my bugbear. Please help!

 

Nice graphic. Repped

[rjcurrie]

Re: The VPP - my bugbear. Please help!

 

Here is a graphic I made that might help you:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=20001&d=1133817466

 

I guess it all depends on how visually oriented you are, I've always found the written descriptions of VPP to be clear, whereas that diagram would send me screaming into the night .

[Lucius]

Re: The VPP - my bugbear. Please help!

 

I guess it all depends on how visually oriented you are' date=' I've always found the written descriptions of VPP to be clear, whereas that diagram would send me screaming into the night .[/quote']

 

Same here. I thought I understood perfectly until I saw the diagram and got totally confused.

 

Ironically, it's the Elemental Control that I have most trouble understanding.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary reminds me that I have a deadline.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The VPP - my bugbear. Please help!

 

When a VPP has no limitations that affect the real cost of the of powers in the pool it behaves just like a Multipower with an infinite # of multi-slots.

 

Unlimited slot (active = real) VPP example:

80 point pool

• can have 1 80 point power active
  
• can have 1 50 point power and 1 30 point power active.

(no different than a multipower with several multi-slots where each slot can potentially use the entire multipower reserve)

 

The deviation from the Multipower model occurs when Limitations are applied to the powers in the pool. When that happens the math can get ugly for players who want to reconfigure the pool allocation if the limitation isn't a nice round number. IMO this encourages total limitation values of whole numbers (-1, -2 etc..).

 

Limited slot VPP example:

80 point pool with each slot built with (-1) worth of limitations

• can have 2 80 active (40 real) point powers active
  
• can have 1 80 active (40 real), 1 50 active (25 real) and 1 30 active (15 real) point powers active.

(In this example the total Real points must be =80. The total Active for any 1 slot must also be =80 but 160 active points worth or powers can be active at the same time!)

 

This is fairly balanced when you consider:

• The limitations do not decrease the cost of the actual Pool of the VPP at all (unlike what is possible for certain Multipower builds).
  
• Both of the 80 active (40 real) point powers in the 2nd example cannot be used in a MPA (multiple power attack).

[Tech]

Re: The VPP - my bugbear. Please help!

 

Same here. I thought I understood perfectly until I saw the diagram and got totally confused.

 

Ironically, it's the Elemental Control that I have most trouble understanding.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary reminds me that I have a deadline.

 

The diagram, I am sure, is well put together but not user friendly to understand. On the other hand, I've never had a problem understanding EC (and if anything ever had, I resorted to house rules.)

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The VPP - my bugbear. Please help!

 

Well Ok then.

 

To understand VPP's you have to have a clear understanding of the difference between ACTIVE POINTS and REAL COST.

 

The POOL of the VPP defines both the maximum Active Points of any of the powers in the VPP, which you can think of as X. If you have 60 Pool, then you can only fit powers with 60 AP or less into it.

 

The POOL of the VPP also defines the total Real Cost of all the powers in the VPP at any one time, which you can think of as Y. If you have 60 Pool, then you can have 60 Real Cost worth of Powers in the Pool simultaneously.

 

This is a square model; 5 points of Pool expands both the AP limit and the total RC limit simultaneously. This means that the more points you put into a VPP, it gets more potent in two direction -- bigger powers and potentially more of them.

 

To pay for this capability and keep it from being too efficient, there is a Control Cost that you must pay for with character points in addition to the points in the Pool. This Control Cost is 1/2 the Pool by default.

 

By default it takes time and effort (represented by a mandatory power skill roll) to change the Powers in a VPP, but any type of Power that meets the above mentioned point limits is theoretically allowable.

 

If you can change the Powers quicker or effortlessly or both then Advantages are applied to the Control Cost, making it cost more. On the other hand if it takes you longer to change Powers, or requires some special scenario to change Powers then you apply Limitations to the Control Cost making it cheaper. This type of modifiers only effect the maintenance of the VPP itself and are taken only on the Control Cost and not on the Powers in the VPP.

 

If there are other restrictions on what sort of Power constructs can be in the VPP then you can take a Limitation to the Control Cost, making it cheaper. This sort of Limitation acts as a governor, or filter over the VPP -- only Powers of a certain sort can enter the VPP. This sort of Limitation is taken only on the Control Cost and not on the Powers in the VPP. This is typically a SFX limit such as "Only Magic Spells" or "Only Fire Powers", but can also be something like "Only Powers With 1 Charge" or "Only To Imitate Powers Of Others", or even "Only Powers Built As Foci".

 

If there are other restrictions that require a Limitation to be taken by all the Powers in the VPP, then the Limitation may also be applied to the Control Cost but do not have to be (and in my experience generally shouldnt be).

 

 

So, basically, the POOL is just a pile of points set aside to be used to buy Powers with an AP limit equal to the Pool, and the real determinant of how wide open or constricted a given VPP is in real practical terms is the Control Cost and the modifiers taken on it. It controls what can go in to the Pool and how fast and easy it is to swap things in and out of the Pool.

 

 

To give a concrete example, think of it like an empty metal tray that is 60 inches x 60 inches if you will. Now imagine you have a pile of flat magnets that are square or rectangular. We have a rule that says when dealing with a magnet that is not square, we can only place it on the try long side up / narrow side down and you can't stack magnets vertically, only horizontally.

 

Now obviously, only magnets that are 60 inches or less on their longest side can fit into the tray. If you had a magnet that was 60 x 60 then it would fill the whole tray and no other magnets would fit. On the other hand you could fit two magnets that were 60 x 30 on end, and both would fit. If you had a magnet that was 60x 30 and another that was 60 x 20, then you could fit a third magnet that was any height 60 or less as long as its width was only 10.

 

This correlates directly to the AP x RC footprints of Powers in a VPP with 60 Pool.

 

Any further rules about how often you can change the magnets on the tray, what kinds of magnets can be put on the tray (only red ones or only ones labeled A), and things of that nature are analogous to the Control Cost of a VPP.

[Robyn]

Re: The VPP - my bugbear. Please help!

 

To give a concrete example, think of it like an empty metal tray that is 60 inches x 60 inches if you will. Now imagine you have a pile of flat magnets that are square or rectangular. We have a rule that says when dealing with a magnet that is not square, we can only place it on the try long side up / narrow side down and you can't stack magnets vertically, only horizontally.

 

Now obviously, only magnets that are 60 inches or less on their longest side can fit into the tray. If you had a magnet that was 60 x 60 then it would fill the whole tray and no other magnets would fit. On the other hand you could fit two magnets that were 60 x 30 on end, and both would fit. If you had a magnet that was 60x 30 and another that was 60 x 20, then you could fit a third magnet that was any height 60 or less as long as its width was only 10.

 

This correlates directly to the AP x RC footprints of Powers in a VPP with 60 Pool.

 

Now, curiously enough, this was almost exactly the visual that came to me when I had the same reaction to your diagram as rjcurrie and Lucius; I think you could create a much better diagram based on your explanation above.

[casualplayer]

Re: The VPP - my bugbear. Please help!

 

I've always described a VPP as a bag that you can fill up with things, as long as nothing is bigger than the opening (the pool cost.) Sometimes you can only change what's in the bag when you go home, sometimes you can only change what's in the bag in-between adventures, sometimes things are tough to find in the bag (Requires Skill Roll) and sometimes you have just the right thing in your bag right at your fingertips every single time (Cosmic.)

[gojira]

Re: The VPP - my bugbear. Please help!

 

Will somebody please explain' date=' simply and clearly, how the Variable Power Pool works, and how to use it? I've never really understood it, practically or philosophically.[/quote']

 

Philosophically, I think of it like this: Long ago, when Champions looked like it was typeset on a typewriter, they had a Power called Gadget Pool. This allowed a hero to bring a certain number of points in gadgets along, and he was allowed to change those gadgets back at his base.

 

That's what a VPP is to me. Just a Gadget Pool.

 

Later, the Variable Power Pool was created to make the Gadget Pool power more general and generic. VPPs work well for powerful magic, and really cosmically powerful heroes. This can be bad if "cosmically powerful" is not what you had in mind for your PCs.

 

However, if you limit the VPP enough, it becomes much less eeevil and even desirable. A VPP with the lims OIF (-1/2) and Can Only Change Powers at Base (-1/2) is now just a Gadget Pool. Reduce also the power of the VPP itself to about 20 points or so, and you've got a very reasonable, non-eeevil power, just perfect for the gadget based hero. If the gadget based hero needs more stuff, give him more pools, not more points in a single pool. That will keep the AP down and limit the PCs power appropriately.

 

That's the secret to using VPPs, imho. Limit the hell out of them. And stick to a simple character concept that's easy for everyone, players and GM both, to visualize.

 

"I have gadgets, and I can change to new ones at my lab" is really easy for everyone to understand. Then build the VPP around the SFX. Don't let the mechanic of "I can switch points around" dictate the SFX.

 

Do not use, or let players use, published characters with really big, unrestrained VPPs. Those are plot devices, and nothing else.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The VPP - my bugbear. Please help!

 

Remembered this graphic I made:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=9136&d=1095355957

 

from this old thread:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=445652#post445652