Kristopher Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 Re: ORCS! What makes them our favourite enemies??? I've never really cared for the idea of an entire race that's automatically identifiable as "the enemy" regardless of the specific campaign setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 Re: ORCS! What makes them our favourite enemies??? We like to kill things. And it is a handy convenience if the things we kill are iredeemably evil. We don't have to worry about any fiddly ethical issues and just kill them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Johnston Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 Re: ORCS! What makes them our favourite enemies??? Or even if they aren't irredeemably evil, at least operating in faceless masses and intent on immediate evil so you don't have to sweat the exceptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 Re: ORCS! What makes them our favourite enemies??? But if Orcs are born Chaotic Evil, then Paladins can slaughter the children for the XP's without violating their alignment. Or something like that, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted September 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 Re: ORCS! What makes them our favourite enemies??? I do not know about the morality of a Paladin killing Orc children. Peter Jackson's version of Saruman's Uruk-Hai are created beings. Having no children. Mayhaps that is the issue. You see Human women, children, and old mean at the mercy of violent beings. No Orc families. Kill them, kill them all, track them down, and leave none alive. - Quote from where? QM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 Re: ORCS! What makes them our favourite enemies??? Tolkein - and Peter Jackson - Orcs are not a race. I'm using the actual biological term there - as animals capable of reproducing. They aren't. Neither are the ones in my setting. But then - Dwarves are almost not a race in my setting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. Marcus Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 Re: ORCS! What makes them our favourite enemies??? . . . Didn't Tolkien write to the effect that "the Orcs were multiplying in the Mountains"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 Re: ORCS! What makes them our favourite enemies??? . . . Didn't Tolkien write to the effect that "the Orcs were multiplying in the Mountains"? Yes. And I'm fairly sure in the LOTR books, mention is made of breeding humans and orcs in the caverns under Isengard (which does lend itself to the horrific imagery of rape camps). And I'm fairly sure there is mention of young and female goblins in The Hobbit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 Re: ORCS! What makes them our favourite enemies??? That's right! I don't know how that works with the whole undead elves theory that the tolkein society came up with. They are certainly created beings (invented by Melkor) - but if they can make more of themselves... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 Re: ORCS! What makes them our favourite enemies??? That's right! I don't know how that works with the whole undead elves theory that the tolkein society came up with. They are certainly created beings (invented by Melkor) - but if they can make more of themselves... What? Orcs? Oh... and there was mention of human/orc half-breeds in Bree. And if humans and elves can inter-breed, and orcs are corrupted elves.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Johnston Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 Re: ORCS! What makes them our favourite enemies??? But if Orcs are born Chaotic Evil, then Paladins can slaughter the children for the XP's without violating their alignment. Or something like that, eh? Well there are certain implications to being "born evil". One of them is that the character comes with a great deal more of their programming hardwired in from birth or hatching. More read only memory. That means they would require far less parental teaching and nurturing. The notorious orc nursery scene simply wouldn't happen because juvenile orcs would not be helpless babies for more than a very short time after birth. They'd just be shorter orcs. And not for very long since there'd be no need for the extended juvenile development period for humans in which they learn what's what. This fast maturation period is of course perfect for producing disposable low quality troops in large numbers. What's more it means there's less of a push for sexual segregation of responsibilities since children quickly become self-sufficient at least as scavengers on the kills of their seniors. Thus, no need to define females as noncombatants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. Marcus Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 Re: ORCS! What makes them our favourite enemies??? What? Orcs? Oh... and there was mention of human/orc half-breeds in Bree. And if humans and elves can inter-breed, and orcs are corrupted elves.... One of the last projects of the Professor was retconning the origin of the Orcs -- apparently, being corrupted, soulless Elves didn't fit in with the cosmology. I wonder how far he got with this before he died? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 Re: ORCS! What makes them our favourite enemies??? The best idea for a "born evil" race wouldn't orcs (although one could argue that Tolkien orcs are, due to being "fallen"/corrupted elves), but something that has a more instinctive mind. Insect forms, for example. The Tyrannids from WarHammer 40,000, the Xenomorphs from Alien, the Bugs from Starship Troopers, all fit into the "evil" and "beyond redemption" category. Demons work as well, although some Japanese demons (Oni) could convert to Buddhism and make a go at it. Now you're dealing with something that doesn't negotiate, doesn't care about you, doesn't stop, and does boil it all down to "them are us." Of course, these beings technically aren't "evil" either, just so alien they don't register morals the way we do. In D&D I'd call them Neutral. In fact, Tyrannids and Bugs are probably Lawful Neutral (everything is done for the sake of the race, and every member of the race has a place in this plan), while a Xenomorph is true Neutral (everything is done to ensure the survival of the race). Of course, I might not be using these terms exactly.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 Re: ORCS! What makes them our favourite enemies??? One of the last projects of the Professor was retconning the origin of the Orcs -- apparently, being corrupted, soulless Elves didn't fit in with the cosmology. I wonder how far he got with this before he died? Ahhh... I see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. Marcus Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 Re: ORCS! What makes them our favourite enemies??? Anyway, the "Corrupted Elves" version is what made it into the Silmarillion. Does that make it canon? Does anyone know the rules for Tolkien canon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Johnston Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 Re: ORCS! What makes them our favourite enemies??? Anyway, the "Corrupted Elves" version is what made it into the Silmarillion. Does that make it canon? Does anyone know the rules for Tolkien canon? Well the Silmarillion is a post-mortem collection of a whole bunch of stuff that Tolkien never actually approved for publication, his drawer full of work in progress. So if there's a Tolkien canon it probably doesn't count any more than Ellison's script for City At the Edge of Forever counts as canon for Star Trek. The corrupted elf thing doesn't work too well though, simply because elves were never that populous and the orcs had endless hordes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. Marcus Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 Re: ORCS! What makes them our favourite enemies??? . . . It's so, so sad that he never produced a definite version of the Silmarillion. Over sixty years he invented and revised, re-revised, reinvented, retconned, threw away and started over on so many wonderful concepts that if I had even one idea of that caliber I'd die happy . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jhamin Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 Re: ORCS! What makes them our favourite enemies??? Considering the ease with which orcs typically get slaughtered' date=' one wonders why they went into the warrior race business in the first place. They should give it up and take up shepherding or construction work. It's like D&D kobolds -- no race that weak would ever be f*ing with humans. They should be living on grubs in the forest, HIDING from the humans.[/quote'] I personally believe that the typical treatment of Orcs in most D&D games is a holdover from older editions. In older versions of D&D, an Orc was an Orc and had rigid stats. And they were whusses. In the current version of D&D Orcs are a race with stat modifiers, favored class, and the whole bit. The stats in the current monster manual specifically state that the listed character is a typical 1st level Orc Warrior. There are similar entries for Dwarves, Elves, and Halflings. But in 90% of the D&D games you see, elves and dwarves all live in societies led by high level fighters and wizards and boasting elite warrior groups where each soldier has several character levels. Meanwhile Orcs are still wandering around in hordes peons with one level of an NPC (IE weaker) class. In the modern version of D&D, there is no rules or in-game reason why the Orcs don't have all the high level leaders and elite groups that all the "good guy" races have. In my last D&D game, I created an Orc society filled with Berzerker brotherhoods, clan chiefs with lots of Barbarian levels (thier favored class), and shamen with Cleric levels to hand out the buff spells. (Orcs have their own God in D&D, why wouldn't they have high level clerics?) When these guys invaded, the PCs took notice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 Re: ORCS! What makes them our favourite enemies??? I think his concept of "born evil" is a nod towards his Catholic influences Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted September 19, 2006 Report Share Posted September 19, 2006 Re: ORCS! What makes them our favourite enemies??? *deep sigh* Guys, Tollkein claimed Orcs derived from Elves. They were described as "tortured Elves" in fact. And yes, they were crossed with Men too, in the Third Age. *goes back to reading the thread* Lucius Alexander The palindromedary notes that Lucius may also revisit the question of "why Tollkein's Orcs are evil" and how much can be blamed on the Dark Lords who dominated them.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mhoram Posted September 19, 2006 Report Share Posted September 19, 2006 Re: ORCS! What makes them our favourite enemies??? What? Orcs? Oh... and there was mention of human/orc half-breeds in Bree. Good ol' Bill Ferny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robyn Posted September 19, 2006 Report Share Posted September 19, 2006 Re: ORCS! What makes them our favourite enemies??? No disputing any of the preceding points' date=' but to add one other observation: orcs often appear in hordes, like army ants, despoiling everything in their path. This adds to their terrifying aspect, since killing any number of individuals doesn't stop the advance of the horde.[/quote'] Hmm . . . maybe I should tell 6-Sided_Buddha that the approaching army is made up of orcs And let's face it' date=' no scenario says "warrior hero" better than a few brave souls standing up to a rampaging horde.[/quote'] "We may go down, but we'll go down fighting . . . and I for one intend to take so many of them with me that their rulers erect a monument so that future generations will know how impressed they were with us!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdguy Posted September 19, 2006 Report Share Posted September 19, 2006 Re: ORCS! What makes them our favourite enemies??? Ork! The Roleplaying Game Online review of the game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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