"Divine Shield": ultimate defense

[Icel]

How do you build an ultimate- or near ultimate- defense without going with the overly expensive 75% RPD reduction+ 75% RED reduction?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

You do realise that you are playing HERO right? You get what you pay for and so a defence that is nigh on impregnable will cost LOTS of points. The high cost of 3/4 resistant Damage Reduction reflects how useful it is in defending the character. If you want something as good or better than that the basic design of the game would indicate that it would cost the same or more.

 

Sometimes damage reduction is the wrong way to go for effectiveness. If you ar playing in a fantasy hero game, or any of the heroic level genres, you can achieve good protection from the level of threat far better using armour and force field for less points than the damage reduction would cost.

 

Can you tell us the context for your question? You are obviously designing a character with some power/spell/ability but if you tell us what the character is, the game you are designing it for and the limits your GM is imposing then we can do a decent job of giving you options.

 

 

Doc

[Icel]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

Sure, It a paladin, warcraft like, hance the name of the ability.

Heroic 75/75 game.

plain 3/4 DR for both PD and ED is 80 poits if I remember correctly.

Are there cheaper way to do this kind of defense?

I'm not talking about the cost after I add things like endurense, RSR and other limitations to lower its cost, just the plain power.

[Metaphysician]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

Well, there's Extra-Dimensional Movement ( Current Location to Same Location Except Unreachable by Attacks ). Its usually the go-to for total defenses that also forbid offensive action.

[sbarron]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

How about 30PD/30ED force field? Only 60 pts. This provides great protection from small attacks, and good against large attacks.

 

How about 50% phy and energy DR? Not quite as good as 75%/75%, but a bit cheaper. How about 75% physical, 25% Energy?

 

Having never played Warcraft, I don't know how the power works.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

Well' date=' there's Extra-Dimensional Movement ( Current Location to Same Location Except Unreachable by Attacks ). Its usually the go-to for total defenses that also forbid offensive action.[/quote']

 

EDM is just a TRAVEL Power. It is not the uber-power to solve all problems with. For reference, see many prior rants on the subject.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

How do you build an ultimate- or near ultimate- defense without going with the overly expensive 75% RPD reduction+ 75% RED reduction?

 

A) Damage Reduction is good in high powered games with large dice pools for damage being thrown around. It is significantly less effective than a similar amount of Armor or FF in lower powered games with less dice of effect. That is the effect of percentages.

 

Consider what a powerful attack is in your campaign. Is it 2d6, 3d6, 4d6 K? Buy enough Armor to bounce the max roll of that level of attack, and you have effective invulnerability. If you want to make extra sure, add a little pad.

 

C) Be very wary of allowing a character to have such invulnerability as they become very difficult to challenge, and can both eclipse other PC's and also severely unbalance the game.

[SirViss]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

Um, Desolidification?

 

Of course, if you go with Desolid you are supposed to indicate a fairly common way of circumventing the power. Is there an attack that can still do full damage to the paladin while this special ability is activated?

[CourtFool]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

One of the things I have always enjoyed about Hero is that there are no absolutes.

[Icel]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

Metaphysician, he is supposed to be able to attack while the shield is in effect, only with penalty.

 

SirViss. disolid won't work because there isn't supposed to be a way to harm him when he is shielded.

 

I think the safest way to go is high defense force field, like this?

Divine Shield: Force Field (30 PD/30 ED) (60 Active Points); Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (-1), Requires A Faith Skill Roll (-1/2)

RC: 24; END: 6.

[gojira]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

Consider what a powerful attack is in your campaign. Is it 2d6' date=' 3d6, 4d6 K? Buy enough Armor to bounce the max roll of that level of attack, and you have effective invulnerability. If you want to make extra sure, add a little pad.[/quote']

 

This is pretty much what I would go with. In general, 15 PD/ 15 ED Force Field will make you invulnerable to most anything, so that's be a good start. Customize to taste.

 

Don't forget about maybe some extra PD/ED (the regular type) to absorb Stun damage, and maybe other defenses if you think appropirate. Lack of Weakness, Mental Defense, + EGO (only to resist EGO attacks), Flash Defense, Power Defense and Hardening might also all be appropriate. A Dispel for adverse effects/enemy powers might also be useful and fit the flavor of the concept.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

Hero is much better at attack than defence, even though it claims that defence should be cheaper than attack I think we all know that is not really true. You can't build an ultimate defence unless you have points to burn. This is right and proper: designing a system where characters can obtain enough defence to be invulnerable rapidly dissolves into silliness.

 

You CAN build an ultimate defence against a SPECIFIC attack or mechanical build of attack class for reasonable cost though.

 

Killer Shrike makes some excellent points and suggestions (ESPECIALLY about EDM: if that was not meant to be humourous, Metaphysician, have yourself flayed).

 

If you know whay is coming you can build a meaty (and expensive) defence and chop the cost (and application) down with limitations.

 

Also consider extra REC and healing/regeneration against certain types of damage - such evil cannot cling tot he soul or body of a true Paladin!

[Metaphysician]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

Nope, it was serious, albeit with an equally serious Stop Sign. In fact, I'm pretty sure there's references to similar usages of EDM. Its the basis for both Time Stop and Wish effects.

[Robyn]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

If you know whay is coming you can build a meaty (and expensive) defence and chop the cost (and application) down with limitations.

 

One of these point-reduction methods might be to buy a Guardian Angel as a Follower (this is one of those divinely-granted abilities that the PC doesn't innately possess, correct?), giving you an 80% cost savings on its abilities (all centered around protecting you, since it was created for exactly that purpose).

[Eosin]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

I am gonna assume this is a spell effect?

 

There are a few ways that you can consider doing this. KS has already hit the majority of them. Here is a way that I might consider it (not knowing the source material).

 

Divine Protection: (Total: 65 Active Cost, 12 Real Cost) Physical Damage Reduction, 75% (40 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1), OAF (-1), Limited Coverage 180 Degrees (-1/2), Only When Serving The God's Purposes (-1/2), Requires A Faith Roll (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), Spell (-1/2), Not versus "Holy Powers" (-1/4) (Real Cost: 7) plus Armor (10 PD/0 ED) (15 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1), OAF (-1), Limited Coverage 180 Degrees (-1/2), Only When Serving The God's Purposes (-1/2), Requires A Faith Roll (-1/2), Spell (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), Not versus "Holy Powers" (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3) plus +10 PD (10 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1), OAF (-1), Limited Coverage 180 Degrees (-1/2), Only When Serving The God's Purposes (-1/2), Requires A Faith Roll (-1/2), Spell (-1/2), Not versus "Holy Powers" (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2)

 

In a fantasy based game, this is about as total protection as you can get from a physical attack. Since this is a paladin, the powers should not work on "holy people" meaning that a priest or another paladin could simply ignore the power. Likewise, it is assumed that you can't do this at will since it is grossly over balanced for the genre.

 

Assuming that you have armor around 8 points rPD and that you have 7 PD - pretty much no more than a single BODY or so will ever get through and the amount of STUN will be trivial. An attack doing 20 BODY with a x5 multiplier (100 STUN) ends up putting - 1 BODY and 16 STUN through. If total protection is desired, buy the same spell for ED and add them together.

[Icel]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

A couple of points:

1. Why Limited Coverage?

2. since in warcraft they don't work with gods but with faith, Only When Serving The God's Purposes means nothing.

3. Like wise there is no reason "holy people" will be able to penetrate the defense. as I siad, noting is supposed to harm the paladin for the few seconds he is under the shield.

4. Way Charge and not straight END cost?

[Eosin]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

I am gonna assume this is a spell effect?

 

Here is a way that I might consider it (not knowing the source material).

 

A couple of points:

1. Why Limited Coverage?

2. since in warcraft they don't work with gods but with faith, Only When Serving The God's Purposes means nothing.

3. Like wise there is no reason "holy people" will be able to penetrate the defense. as I siad, noting is supposed to harm the paladin for the few seconds he is under the shield.

4. Way Charge and not straight END cost?

 

 

Various points....

0. We'll go back to the "Not Knowing the Source Material."

1. A shield seems like limited coverage from one angle, something like the Shield Spell from D&D.

2. So, take that limit off. Add whatever you think represents "faith" in the World of Warcraft.

3. So, if two paladins from the same religon or faith get in a fight and decide to destroy each other, their church, and the "pope" during their battle, their creed and faith allows them to do that? If so, remove it. If you don't think they should be able to whack the itenerant priest from their faith who just happen to be walking by, then the power will need a limit.

4. Tons of reasons.

4a... "Few seconds he is under the shield" sounds like charges, not END

4b... END cost is gonna be ugly and I didn't want to design an END Battery for a Paladin whom I knew nothing about.

4c... I don't know how many times he could do this but that is easily adjusted by changing the charges.

4d.... I didn't know how long the shield should last but again, that is easily adjusted by altering the charge duration.

4e... You said 150 point characters (I think), even heavily limited this power is expensive, so going with charges was a way to bring down the cost. Spending more than 15-20 points on a power in a FH 150 point character is going to hose the character elsewhere. It is exceedingly hard to rob Peter and pay Paul in a points based game. Something is going to be short changed.

 

Also note, that this doesn't provide complete protection (as mentioned). It only protects against physical combat damage. In addition to buying this version for ED, you'll still need to buy a bucket of exotic Defenses (FLASH DEF, POWER DEF, MENTAL DEF, & Life Support) if you want to be immune to all damage.

[Icel]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

Okay, the charges thing look good.

I'll keep the other stuff in mind.

 

thanks.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

Metaphysician, he is supposed to be able to attack while the shield is in effect, only with penalty.

 

SirViss. disolid won't work because there isn't supposed to be a way to harm him when he is shielded.

 

I think the safest way to go is high defense force field, like this?

Divine Shield: Force Field (30 PD/30 ED) (60 Active Points); Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (-1), Requires A Faith Skill Roll (-1/2)

RC: 24; END: 6.

What is the side effect?

[Icel]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

Blah... forgot to write the "-3 OCV" I guess, or should it be 1/2 OCV?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

Blah... forgot to write the "-3 OCV" I guess' date=' or should it be 1/2 OCV?[/quote']

 

Well...with the exception of knockdown or unusual effects, does lowering the DCV of a character with such high defenses really equate to a -1?

[Icel]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

Well...with the exception of knockdown or unusual effects' date=' does lowering the DCV of a character with such high defenses really equate to a -1?[/quote']

 

a. I wrote OCV.

b. It was -1/2 but since it always happen then it doubles.

c. doesn't halving a characters offensive capabilities worth that much?

[Dust Raven]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

EDM is just a TRAVEL Power. It is not the uber-power to solve all problems with. For reference' date=' see many prior rants on the subject.[/quote']

 

If you build it as a Gate with Personal Immunity, you can just make all attacks that hit you "fizzle" into another dimension. It does make moving around a bit difficult, not to mention enjoying a stable love live. But if it's for a paladin...

[Killer Shrike]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

a. I wrote OCV.

b. It was -1/2 but since it always happen then it doubles.

c. doesn't halving a characters offensive capabilities worth that much?

Sorry; didnt notice. There is already a modifier for lowering OCV:

 

(UNTIL Superpowers Database, page 10)

 

An Attack Power with this Limitation is more difficult to target, resulting in a lower OCV. Additionally, the Range Increment for calculating the Range Modifier is reduced.

 

1/2 OCV is a -1/4, 0 OCV is a -1/2

[Lucius]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

Sorry; didnt notice. There is already a modifier for lowering OCV:

 

(UNTIL Superpowers Database, page 10)

 

An Attack Power with this Limitation is more difficult to target, resulting in a lower OCV. Additionally, the Range Increment for calculating the Range Modifier is reduced.

 

1/2 OCV is a -1/4, 0 OCV is a -1/2

 

 

Isn't that a modifier for lowering the OCV of that specific power?

 

This is a modifier for a defense power that, when in use, halves the OCV of ALL attacks the character might use.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Limited Power: Only on a palindromedary