Steam Power in Fantasy

[mayapuppies]

Hello all,

 

Taking a side break from working on the Igard Confederacy a bit to kinda wander a bit in my game world. While I was out stretching my legs I came across a minor note in the annals of the Aregwedd and it mentions that they have discovered steam power.

 

Now, "steam punk" (Victorian style) I've got a pretty good grasp on, but "steam fantasy" I'm not so sure about. I was wondering if any of you have any sources that I can peruse/pilfer for such a thing?

[keithcurtis]

Re: Steam Power in Fantasy

 

I think the ancient Egyptians (or maybe it was one of the Mesopotamian civilizations) had temple doors that open with steam power or a steam assist. I'd be curious to hear about this too.

 

Keith "boiling over with curiosity" Curtis

[Cancer]

Re: Steam Power in Fantasy

 

One useful place on the Web for history is here

 

L. Sprague DeCamp wrote a book "The Ancient Engineers" which has some useful comments about steam and other elements of classical engineering.

 

Steam is really hard to use when you don't have a clear grasp of the concept of pressure, which really was an early modern/terminal Renaissance development.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Steam Power in Fantasy

 

Thanks Cancer, I'll look into this. I also found this: http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=2848

 

Might be handy

[Kristopher]

Re: Steam Power in Fantasy

 

It wasn't the ancient Egyptians, it was the Greeks, and while the same guy who invented those doors also invented some steam gadgets, the doors weren't, IIRC, not steam powered. As brilliant as he was, the inventor never connected his use of pistons in water-powered devices and in pumps, and his use of steam in a strange little gadget -- which was a spherical metal vessel with two angled outlets that would spin when placed over a fire so that the water boiled.

[austenandrews]

Re: Steam Power in Fantasy

 

I wrote a few licensed books with a steam-ish component.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Steam Power in Fantasy

 

I wrote a few licensed books with a steam-ish component.

 

Very nice! I'll put this on my list.

[Wildcat]

Re: Steam Power in Fantasy

 

For some great Reference Material you might want to look into the Iron Kingdoms campaign setting by privateer press.

http://privateerpress.com/ironkingdoms/default.php

It's the world/setting used for their minature game Warmachine fully fleshed out for their d20 RPG. Now I'm no d20 guy but the setting, and art are outstanding.

 

 

WC

[mayapuppies]

Re: Steam Power in Fantasy

 

For some great Reference Material you might want to look into the Iron Kingdoms campaign setting by privateer press.

http://privateerpress.com/ironkingdoms/default.php

It's the world/setting used for their minature game Warmachine fully fleshed out for their d20 RPG. Now I'm no d20 guy but the setting, and art are outstanding.

 

 

WC

Will do. Thanks

[Cancer]

Re: Steam Power in Fantasy

 

It wasn't the ancient Egyptians' date=' it was the Greeks, and while the same guy who invented those doors also invented some steam gadgets, the doors weren't, IIRC, not steam powered. As brilliant as he was, the inventor never connected his use of pistons in water-powered devices and in pumps, and his use of steam in a strange little gadget -- which was a spherical metal vessel with two angled outlets that would spin when placed over a fire so that the water boiled.[/quote']

 

Oddly enough, this inventor is known to history as Hero.

[Kristopher]

Re: Steam Power in Fantasy

 

Heron of Alexandria

 

 

Yeah, it's Wiki...

[keithcurtis]

Re: Steam Power in Fantasy

 

Well I wasn't too far off. I did say that it was likely steam assisted rather than steam powered, and although the inventor was Greek, he did live in Egypt.

 

Keith "so there" Curtis

[Jkeown]

Re: Steam Power in Fantasy

 

I started using steam in my Fantasy Heros game in '87 or so. Its a background feature, but fun.

 

My page is at http://www.geocities.com/jephkay@sbcglobal.net

[Lemurion]

Re: Steam Power in Fantasy

 

I tend to use steam in my Fantasy games. Generally when I have dwarves they have steam powered tech for things like pumps and elevators and ventilation systems. It works for me.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Steam Power in Fantasy

 

Dwarves in Warhammer and a few other games have steam powered technology, but thats the only example I can think of.

 

I had the idea of a college of technomages, magic used to create technological items, magic fired steam engines etc. GURPS Vehicles gave me the idea because some of the power plants are magically or demonically powered.

 

A permanent heat metal spell put on a rod would basically allow one to build a fantasy nuclear reactor.

[Vondy]

Re: Steam Power in Fantasy

 

The Romans invented a steam engine based on previous Greek ideas, but slavery as an economic model, led to its never being considered useful. It was just some eccentric crackerjack's time-waster to them. Had they implemented such ideas history would have been radically different. Imagine the middle ages with stream trains, steam mills for driving mechanization of textiles, lumber, driving bellows and triphammers for metal production (which started with water-wheels in the middle-ages), and the like. Also, the first fire-engine (hand pumped to create pressure for the water jets) was a Roman invention. And they had repeating ballistas. I also understand they made a very good fishy custard.

[Curufea]

Re: Steam Power in Fantasy

 

How can you put the word "good" in the same sentence as "fishy custard"

 

Seriously though, invention is not just coming up with ideas, but making good use of them too. Ideally so it catches on and has some marketing. Look at Edison for example - rather a household name, but there are many inventors before and since who have been better.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Steam Power in Fantasy

 

The Romans invented a steam engine based on previous Greek ideas' date=' but slavery as an economic model, led to its never being considered useful. It was just some eccentric crackerjack's time-waster to them. Had they implemented such ideas history would have been radically different. Imagine the middle ages with stream trains, steam mills for driving mechanization of textiles, lumber, driving bellows and triphammers for metal production (which started with water-wheels in the middle-ages), and the like. Also, the first fire-engine (hand pumped to create pressure for the water jets) was a Roman invention. And they had repeating ballistas. I also understand they made a very good fishy custard.[/quote']

 

The Roman Empire with efficient steam engines is a scary concept. They were pretty nasty already.

 

Keith "Pax Romanum Aeternum" Curtis

[Curufea]

Re: Steam Power in Fantasy

 

Not really - the empire was changing towards the end. If the barbarians hadn't put the final nail in, they may have evolved into a more modern culture.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Steam Power in Fantasy

 

The Romans invented a steam engine based on previous Greek ideas' date=' but slavery as an economic model, led to its never being considered useful. It was just some eccentric crackerjack's time-waster to them. Had they implemented such ideas history would have been radically different. Imagine the middle ages with stream trains, steam mills for driving mechanization of textiles, lumber, driving bellows and triphammers for metal production (which started with water-wheels in the middle-ages), and the like. Also, the first fire-engine (hand pumped to create pressure for the water jets) was a Roman invention. And they had repeating ballistas. I also understand they made a very good fishy custard.[/quote']

 

There really wouldn't have been "Middle Ages" if Rome had steam power and all that implies. The barbarians would have had a hard time fighting a military that could be reinforced with troops from anywhere in the Mediterranean area within days, and supplied by rail. Rome would have gone on, and probably expanded, for centuries longer at least. When Rome did fall, or at least pieces of it began to break off, there wouldn't have been a fall into Dark Ages.

[Vondy]

Re: Steam Power in Fantasy

 

There really wouldn't have been "Middle Ages" if Rome had steam power and all that implies. The barbarians would have had a hard time fighting a military that could be reinforced with troops from anywhere in the Mediterranean area within days' date=' and supplied by rail. Rome would have gone on, and probably expanded, for centuries longer at least. When Rome did fall, or at least pieces of it began to break off, there wouldn't have been a fall into Dark Ages.[/quote']

 

I agree, though what it would have looked like within a few centuries is an interesting question. A good key to that would be to consider the Byzantine Empire with steam, as that was Rome continued to 1400. That's the thing people often forget - only half of Rome fell. The rest continued on for 1000 years. One thing is for certain, slavery as an economic model would have become quickly outmoded - and that would have created a good amount of upheaval in of itself.

 

My answer was based on "steam fantasy," and fantasy generally defaults to the occidental middle ages (though clearly there are numerous exceptions) - hence my "imagine the middle ages with..." The middle ages subsumes the fall of the West. And you can imagine that if you look at Byzantium - albiet with accelerated development. On the other hand, even if the West had fallen, imagine how quickly the East would have taken it all back with access to trains? And another scenario - what if one of the other abolished slavery and started to mechanize while the other refused and stuck to slavery as the "tried and true" model and the traditional way of Roman life - and insisted their trade, and their traditional voting structure, be protected because of it?

 

Something else to consider is that we like to look at the middle ages and think about how backwards they were - because we're oh so modern and superior. In truth, it was a very creative and dynamic period, and one that kicked off the trends that led to the enlightenment and industrialisation. By the time of the high middle ages these things were already an inescapable fact. Without the fall of Rome, it simply would have happened faster.

[Kristopher]

Re: Steam Power in Fantasy

 

Keep in mind that it takes more than steam power to have railroads. Could the Romans have mass manufactured good iron or steel rails? Given what they did with roads and aquaducts, they could have laid down endless miles of good railbed, bridges, tunnels, etc, but the rails are a key component.

[assault]

Re: Steam Power in Fantasy

 

Keep in mind that it takes more than steam power to have railroads. Could the Romans have mass manufactured good iron or steel rails?

 

They would probably have had stationary steam engines well before they would have had railways.

 

These would help to develop the infrastructure necessary to build railways.

 

Of course the social factors would have been decisive, as they were historically. It is quite likely that the kind of technological advances we are discussing could have stalled after a while, if there was little economic/social imperative to continue with them. We could easily have ended up with a world that was a little more advanced than historically, but not all that much.

 

The other thing to consider is that the eastern half of the Roman Empire was the part where most of the people lived, and most of the economic activity took place. Only looking at the western half tends to give the wrong impression of the situation.

[Vondy]

Re: Steam Power in Fantasy

 

Keep in mind that it takes more than steam power to have railroads. Could the Romans have mass manufactured good iron or steel rails? Given what they did with roads and aquaducts' date=' they could have laid down endless miles of good railbed, bridges, tunnels, etc, but the rails are a key component.[/quote']

 

They were well into their iron age at that point, and made good iron. They also started working in sheets (though much smaller sheets than sheet metal production) for ease of mass manufacturing armor very early on. The jump to a forge with steam powered bellows and triphammers, which would facilitate both large-scale iron works and sufficient heat to forge steel in large amounts, was probably within a century's reach. On the other hand - where would the concept have come from? That I don't know. They might have never developed that and gone straight to steam powered wagons on their roadways, though the same concept, but for mass transport, could logically lead to the train. Yeah, baby, cruising on the roman highways in my high-performance italian steam chariot...

 

Whether steam techology would have made enough structural changes in the empire to save the West before its fall, however, is a difficult question. And the instability caused by the economic upheaval might have caused the West to collapse in chaos on its own. You could still end up with a situation where the West fell and Byzantium survived and forged ahead with the technology. In the real world they almost succeeded in retaking the empire, and for several centuries were the hegemon in the eastern mediterranean. With that power at their fingertips - and more time to develop it than the West had - they may well have succeeded.

[Curufea]

Re: Steam Power in Fantasy

 

Over Europe you wouldn't have the vestiges of Roman Roads, but Roman Rail