Fantasy without magic

[tkdguy]

I'm starting a new campaign. I loosely call it fantasy because it's set in another world. However, there are no supernatural elements here; no dragons, elves, or magic. The world is a "scientific" world because the laws of physics, chemistry, biology, etc. are identical to ours.

 

I had originally suggested including mentalists, but one of my players suggested I exclude them when I told him I had a hard time integrating them into the campaign.

 

Considering this varies from the "normal" fantasy game, how well would you receive it? What would you want to see in it? There's already a lot of swashbuckling swordplay and kung fu. I wanted to add court intrigue, but one of the players isn't too keen on that. Suggestions?

[Agent Escafarc]

My campaign world has slowly evolved this way over the last 20 years or so. It started out as a typical D&D world and piece by piece I eliminated much of mysical elements (always using a in-game reason, for example, early on, halfings were killed off by a magical plague created by a wizard who had a real dislike of them and later I lowered the amount of Mana in the world until only a rare few can cast spells) and my players have found that a "standard" human is very dangerous foe indeed.

The toughest part I've found is you have to make interesting NPCs for your players to interact with.

[Tempuswolf]

Eliminate Martial Arts Damage Classes or you might have a backdoor through which real world physics gets set on its head.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Fantasy without magic

 

Originally posted by tkdguy

Considering this varies from the "normal" fantasy game, how well would you receive it? What would you want to see in it? There's already a lot of swashbuckling swordplay and kung fu. I wanted to add court intrigue, but one of the players isn't too keen on that. Suggestions?

Unless you're going for the Imperial Era, the exploration of the New World and the looting of NA empires ... leaving out politics doesn't leave you much, does it?

 

Honestly, you and your players need to discuss the particulars of the campaign -- what 'magical' things could be real, whether you want any supernatural aspects at all (even if they aren't a part of the PC domain), all that other fun stuff. If you haven't already, you might want to read George R. R. Martin's 'Song of Ice and Fire' books for a 'low fantasy' campaign. It involves, of course, certain supernatural/mystic elements, but they're kept to a bare-bones minimum, more a thing of history and legend than actually having an effect on current events.

 

Well, mostly. I could say more, but it'd spoil it for you.

[Captain Obvious]

Go with some of the old pulp-type classics for inspiration. Few if any of the Tarzan stories had mystical elements. Plenty of Conan stories had weird beasts but no magic. It's mostly variations on swashbuckling adventure, but exotic locales and strange animals can keep things from stagnating. Get those characters on the road!

[tkdguy]

The campaign is a mostly based on 17th century Europe with a few Asian influences (belief in reincarnation, eastern martial arts styles). One player isn't into politics, but it will raise its ugly head because of another player's character. Likewise, pirate adventures won't be too common, but they'll probably make an appearance or two. So far, I have an outlaw campaign like Robin Hood. Here's the roster of chaaracters:

 

A young nobleman whose family has been unfairly accused of treason. His father was killed, and he was forced to flee his homeland. He now has to clear his family's reputation, avenge his father, and reclaim his lands.

 

A peasant who turned to banditry out of desperation. He does have a code of honor (no robbing or killing women and children) and has a grudge with the local magistrate for raping his girlfriend (the traumatised girl later committed suicide).

 

A disrobed priest trained in Ghost Fist (combination of Kung Fu and Tai Chi). He was expelled from the clergy when he defended a man being assaulted and accidentlly killed the assailant.

 

I'm still detailing the countries in the continent. I'm trying to detail the NPCs involved in the campaign.

[TechnoGothic]

my upcoming game is basicly a Sci-Fi Fantasy like setting, where there is no magic, only science, and super-science beyond what most races know of. Fantasy Races have become Alien Races with their own worlds.

 

Why do we know of them ? they have visited us in the past, is why.

 

So Star Hero itself, might actuallt help with Science istead of no magic parts...

[Markdoc]

Sounds like you already have a good handle on it. I've played in a few low-magic/no magic games, one set during the first crusade (one of the most fun campaigns I ever played in!) another in Dark Ages England and one in medieval spain where all the characters were Franciscan monks (not only no magic, but no armour or weapons either - unless you count a small piece of cutlery for peeling fruit :-)) I've run a two year medieval Japanese game with very little magic.

 

There's no doubt it is just as much fun as high magc games.

 

Having said that, two decisions you should make before starting are:

 

Will you allow "powers-as-skills" ? This allows players to build very "heroic fantasy" characters but may detract from a gritty atmosphere (it could be appropriate for a Robin Hood style game where characters display larger than life capabilities, though)

 

and (along the same lines):

 

How "fu-ey" do you want your martial artists to be? A limit on the amount of damage martial artists can generate might be in order, unless you want a Wuxia-style effect (and note, such an effect is perfectly suitable for a game with an Arthurian flavour) where a lone warrior in his tunic with a small piece of cutlery for peeling fruit can face down 20 armed and armoured thugs.

 

Once you've settled on your "feel" all you need are cool adventures and those you can rip off from any heroic genre.

 

cheers, Mark

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Originally posted by tkdguy

The campaign is a mostly based on 17th century Europe with a few Asian influences (belief in reincarnation, eastern martial arts styles). One player isn't into politics, but it will raise its ugly head because of another player's character.

...

A disrobed priest ...

'Defrocked' is the term, actually.

 

I'm still detailing the countries in the continent. I'm trying to detail the NPCs involved in the campaign.

I'd go with actual locations and people. 17th Century Europe, on the other hand, is NOT Robin Hood -- it's Three Musketeers. (Robin Hood would be 13th-15th century.) Remember, the 17th century (1600s) saw the New World being explored and exploited; it's been in the consciousness of the Europeans for a century now. This is the Elizabethan age; during the first half of the 1600's Shakespeare is writing and producing his plays, Cardinal Richelieu is keeping an eye on the various Kings of France (Henry IV, Louis XIII, Louis XIV), the Mayflower Expedition is landing in Massachusetts.

 

All the rest of the world is being discovered; it's just a matter of where you (and they) want to go...

["V"]

I know I'm being picky, but for the record Robin Hood was 12th Century at the latest (since Richard I died in 1199AD) and a lot of the legends that went to make up the story started much earlier than that anyway.

 

For the record "Magic Lite" or "Magic Free" are my favourite types of fantasy campaign. It helps focus the action on the personalities and actions of the PC with less scope for arbitrary fiat.

[tkdguy]

Thanks for the correction, Ouroboros. Defrocked is the term I was looking for, althoughI heard of "disrobed" applying to Catholic priests as well. No, people, I'm not talking about the current scandals about the Church! Shame on you all!

 

On a more serious note, yes, I know that Robin Hood was 12th century or earlier. I only used that as a reference because the characters are starting out on the wrong side of the law (their decision, not mine). One of them will have to go into politics to clear his name, and I suspect the others will be dragged in it as well. As for exploration and exploitation of the New World, it will have to wait until I detail that continent. Keep in mind this is not our earth they are in, just another world approximating that era and culture.

 

The martial arts involved will either be western styles or eastern styles adapted to the west. There won't be any wuxia-style fighting, and I'll probably reduce additional damage classes to +1 or +2 maximum. Acrobatics and breakfall will still be included to allow for cinematic combat. Can't be a swashbuckler without it!

[Steve]

Originally posted by tkdguy

The martial arts involved will either be western styles or eastern styles adapted to the west. There won't be any wuxia-style fighting, and I'll probably reduce additional damage classes to +1 or +2 maximum. Acrobatics and breakfall will still be included to allow for cinematic combat. Can't be a swashbuckler without it!

 

In one campaign I saw, STR and Extra Damage Classes were limited together to a maximum of 5DC. So you could have a 15 STR and 2 Extra DC, a 25 STR and no extra DC, or any other combination of STR and Extra DC you like. It nicely headed off the problem of encouraging every character to load up on STR in order to do damage.

[Old Man]

Remember that just because magic doesn't really exist in your world, many people may still believe in it and more will have many superstitions. Best movie example I can think of would be Brotherhood of the Wolf.

 

If your players give you funny looks over that one, ask them if you can touch their dice...

[Ndreare]

Originally posted by Shadowpup

If your players give you funny looks over that one, ask them if you can touch their dice...

 

How dare you start this blasphemy. To even sigest some one touch someone elses die is akin to asking to break their leg for them... it is just plain wrong.

 

(All the luck would instantly fade and go to the offenders die of course.)

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

If a) you don't have everything all whacked together, you don't really have the time, and c) your players have never played Warhammer Fantasy Role Playing, I recommend that world to you. Fully eliminating magic perhaps unbalances things a little, but not really; WFRP is a low-magic game anyhow...

[tkdguy]

Actually, my friends and I borrow one another's dice all the time. We've been friends since college, you see.

 

I'm not too impressed with the Warhammer system. My friends have been trying to get me into 40K, but it's like Magic the Gathering and computer games. I'll play it with my friends if they feel like playing, but I won't go out of my way.

 

The reason I picked HERO is because of all the nice maneuvers. D&D is sadly lacking when it comes to detailed combat, and it's not made for a nonmagical campaign. I have the GURPS books, and I'd have less conversions to do, but I've never played or GMed a game, so I'm not comfortable using it.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Couple of things ...

 

1) WFRP is not, thank the gods, either WFB (Fantasy Battles) or WH40K (Space Battles). What it IS is a good, simple system that, with a very few house tweaks (like instead of having a 50/50 chance on Risk tests, you have a chance based on the skill appropriate to the test...), is excellent for low-fantasy play.

 

2) If you're playing HERO, play HERO; it has the maneuvers, all the fun gidgets and gadgets and moves you want. What I was recommending is not the WFRP SYSTEM, but its BACKGROUND. (Please note that again, this is not the WFB background, which isn't worth the use as toilet paper its 5 editions were printed on.)

 

Next time you're in your gaming store, look for the WFRP book, and skim to the Gazeteer section (or whatever it's called, I misremember). Take a quick read; it's loosely based on Europe, albeit different countries moving ahead at somewhat different speeds. Editing out the influence of Chaos is possible and relatively easy/painless.

 

Good luck, and have fun.

[tkdguy]

Thanks for the tip. I'm actually using a lot of the 7th Sea sourcebooks to detail the countries and NPCs. And I did research on how to do the astrophysics and geology and meteorology (no kidding, I really did all that research). I borrowed someone else's map, but I adapted it to my own use.

[Mr. Negative]

I'd second the suggestion of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, for one big reason....Chaos! One of the best aspects of Warhammer is the pernicious roles of both cultists and witch-hunters. Even without magic, you can have cults that BELIEVE in magic, and either are simply evil/corrupt/satanic (again see Brotherhood of the Wolf) or are determined to change the status quo (for the better or worse). You can also introduce witch-hunters, the Inquisition, religious fanaticism, etc. The whole notion of "chaos warriors/marauders" invading from the hinterlands works very well, even without actual demons, too.

 

Something else I would recommend is Fritz Lieber's Lankhmar series. While his world is very magical, the magic isn't portable/convenient/reliable, so that his heroes must usually make do with wit and courage. Their theivery is quite an adventure into itself; don't be too constrained to make the heroes Robin Hoods, as simply being in it for the money is quite fun. While a lot of the adventures involve fantastic semi-human races, they also involve mountain-climbing, duelling, fleeing from pygmy assassins, seducing women, robbing other thieves, foiling (or instigating) plots, etc. For my money, Fafhrd and the Mouser are the greatest heroes out there, as they have a complete and utter lack of the "extras" that other heroes get (magical goodies, fate, destiny, unshakeable moral convictions, divine guidance) and make their way with humor, wits, luck, and good looks, as well as being really good at fighting.

[tkdguy]

Inquisitors are rare in this campaign because one of the ways my world is different from Earth is that the Church is more tolerant than the many Christian faiths were at the time. There is a country that still follows the old religion, and the Inquisition is strong there.

 

As for the PCs, perhaps Robin Hood was the wrong title. The PCs are written up in a way that they are more self serving than altruistic. Their goals certainly are. The Robin Hood lable just stuck because my group started joking around when they were creating characters. I commented that my campaign started out as "The Three Musketeers mixed with Enter the Dragon" but turned out to be "Shanghai Noon mixed with Robin Hood: Men in Tights." Fortunately, we came to our senses later on...