Shapeshift, general discussion

[TaxiMan]

So Shapeshift is defined by the senses it affects, for about a year now. I think I understand, but I'm bored so I'll throw this out for the Herophiles' discussion.

 

A Plastic Man or Reed Richards can change his physical shape. He looks like he always does, but has a rubbery body.

 

That's Shapeshift vs sight, always looks the same (-1/2). Right? I didn't think he'd need "vs. touch", since he feels the same - he's not prickly, or furry, or slick; he just feels like a guy in spandex.

 

Now the T1000 guy has that, without the limitation since he can color himself differently. He MIGHT also have "vs touch", don't know since we don't see movies in Feel-O-Vision yet. But he was a floor in one scene, and no one noticed they were walking on T1000 flesh. Maybe his hair felt like hair, don't know.

 

He also probably has "vs hearing", since the footfalls of those walking over him sounded like the rest of the hallway. He sure didn't sound like that when he got hit, so apparently he affects sound in his different forms.

 

Mystique definitely has everything (! - except mental I'd suppose). Down to the cellular level I'd guess, at least she can fake retinas.

 

So is that how you guys see it? I suppose the real question is, how cheap is it to have Mr. Plastic's power? Is it really only one sense affected?

[JmOz]

Actualy I feel that Reed, Ralph, Eel, and Jimmy (and any others I can't think of right now) ironicaly would not necesarily have Shapeshift, just streatching and some other powers (Desolid for instanse)

 

Now I should say that some characters later on definatly picked it up (Plastic man as Big Barda's dress...BRAVE MAN)

[TheEmerged]

Shapeshift was *never* the power of Mr. Fantastic -- although Plastic Man has a limited version of, especially during the Golden Age (when he could reshape his face into a disguise).

 

All shapeshift really does is affect senses. To move through the gaps in a barrier, you need shrinking or desolidificaiton. To gain the powers of an alternate form, you either needed a VPP/MP to mimic those powers of a Multiform.

 

This was true under 4th Edition as well, in my opinion -- it was just never explained very well. Check out the writeups for A-Man in "Champions of the North" for example.

[Kristopher]

So let's say I have a character that's a demon (long story) but can assume a form that outwardly appears to be his former human shape. The only things he loses in his "human" form are his claws (Armor Piercing for STR) and wings (Flight). His stats, other powers (armor, full life support, regen, senses, etc), and so on, stay the same. His real form is now his demonic form, all dracononian and scarey looking.

 

Is the best power to use for this Shapeshift (one form)?

[Yamo]

Is the best power to use for this Shapeshift (one form)?

 

That's what I would use. I wouldn't even take a Limitation to reflect the loss of claws and wings, deeming it just special effects since he could end the Shapeshift at any time and use them freely.

[Lord Liaden]

Well, according to the FAQ on Shapeshift, Shapeshift vs. Touch is what a rubber-bodied character like Reed or Plas would use to change the distribution of their mass into something other than a humanoid configuration. Without also buying Shapeshift vs. Sight, the character would still look more or less like a distorted version of himself - this would match Plastic Man's common stunt of adopting the configuration of a chair or a lamp, but still retain his normal costume and flesh colors, warped facial features etc. The T 1000 would have to have Shape Shift to both Sight and Touch to perform the tricks it does in the film, in addition to other Powers of course.

 

It isn't clear from the FAQ whether the ability to change your feel/texture with Shapeshift vs. Touch, and the ability to redistribute your mass, is an either/or situation; in other words, whether being able to alter your form but always feeling "rubbery" when you do would constitute a Limitation on the Shape Shift. Personally I'd lean to saying that it would too rarely make a difference in play to warrant a Lim, but of course YMMV.

[zornwil]

I think the "detailing" of Shapeshift in 5th is one of those cases where they went too far. Its simplicity in 4th lay in the GM-territory as well as the flexibility of not defining it too narrowly.

[Lord Liaden]

I can respect your position on that, zornwill, but I have to disagree. IMO 4E left too much of the detail up to the GM. I've seen too many questions on the order of, "If I Shape Shift into a rock, I look and feel like one, but can someone with enhanced Smell find me because I don't smell like a rock? How about if someone tries to read my mind - does it appear to be just a rock to him?" House rules to fine-tune these situations abounded, without cross-campaign consistency. Now we're all pretty much on the same page. I like the clarity, and I'm actually quite comfortable with the new Shape Shift.

[zornwil]

Not intended as a counter to your point but just for clarification, those "do I smell like a rock" rulings to me are what help flavor a campaign and imprint it with its own personality. I think the less that is canonical but more suggested, the better guided the GM/players are.

[Vondy]

I find I have mixed feelings about the new construct for this power.

 

On the one hand the granularity introduced in FRED is very logical and allows precision that wasn't there with the ambiguity of the BBB.

 

On the other hand its a real pain to list every detail of the power. It has so many details that the power can become like a laundry list... extremely long.

[Crimson Arrow]

One thing that often gets left out is Radar. If Plastic Man turns himself into a car, doesn't a Radar pick out the shape of a car?

 

I don't think this is an issue with "super-disguise" type Shapeshifts, but seems relevant to other things (eg "Why that's a rampaging giant ape", "No," says Radarman, "it's just the Martian Manhunter" - doesn't seem right).

 

Perhaps I'm missing something here.

 

Generally, I prefer the new rules, though.

[TaxiMan]

Yeah, totally missed that "stretching" thing, must have been tired. Shapeshift vs sight would be the power of that guy who was made of sand - a villian, made big hammers out of his fists, stuff like that. Can't remember his name....

[Doug Limmer]

Originally posted by Crimson Arrow

One thing that often gets left out is Radar. If Plastic Man turns himself into a car, doesn't a Radar pick out the shape of a car?

Personally, I think of Radar (and Sonar) as a 'sense group converter'. Radar senses the Touch group, but is received as the Radar group. I don't think that causes too many problems ...

[austenandrews]

To me the 5E version makes a simple shape change unreasonably complex and expensive. It seems silly to figure out how to affect Radar Sense when I just want to change into a chair. I prefer the default to be a perfect shape shift, maybe with an Adder for "molecular detail" or "spiritual detail," for campaigns that give a hoot about those things. Then toss on a -1/4 Limitation "imperfect" and define what the weakness is (looks and sounds like someone else, but smells different; looks human but casts a demonic reflection; etc.). Maybe a -1/2 for "obvious imperfection" (like Plastic Man always looking like himself). Voila, simple and effective.

 

-AA

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Crimson Arrow

One thing that often gets left out is Radar. If Plastic Man turns himself into a car, doesn't a Radar pick out the shape of a car?

 

I don't think this is an issue with "super-disguise" type Shapeshifts, but seems relevant to other things (eg "Why that's a rampaging giant ape", "No," says Radarman, "it's just the Martian Manhunter" - doesn't seem right).

 

Perhaps I'm missing something here.

 

Generally, I prefer the new rules, though.

 

The FAQ under "Shape Shift" goes into a fair bit of detail about how Radar is affected by Shape Shift to other Sense Groups, particularly Touch for altering mass distribution.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by TaxiMan

Yeah, totally missed that "stretching" thing, must have been tired. Shapeshift vs sight would be the power of that guy who was made of sand - a villian, made big hammers out of his fists, stuff like that. Can't remember his name....

 

That would be the Sandman, classic Marvel Comics villain. And IMHO making big hammers out of your fists (usually to do extra damage like a HA) would just be the special effect of using your Power. Personally I would never demand or expect a character to take Shape Shift if his appearance alters while using a particular Power if that's how using it always looks; the difference in his appearance would just be the SFX of the Power.

[TaxiMan]

Good point about SFX (re: hammer hands). Makes me wonder, what would I use Shapeshift vs sight for? If I want to be a chair, I suppose I could crouch down weirdly so someone could sit on me (Please! no crude comments needed, they're all too obvious!).

 

So when is changing shape vs. sight NOT just a SFX of some other power? In 30 seconds I can't think of a reason. Only if you look like someone / something else does there seem to be a benefit. Being a molten mercury sort of dude (you always look silver) doesn't need shapeshift at all? That's just plain weird.

 

So the limitation "always looks like himself" to Shapeshift is worth -1,000?!?

[Lord Liaden]

Shapeshift vs. Sight is perfect for those holographic disguises making you appear to be someone else, especially if you include the Imitation Adder. Much cheaper, more effective and more reliable than using Images. Or how about if you want to avoid being spotted by a search party in the middle of a forest? Stretch out your arms and make like a tree.

[Snarf]

Always looking wierd is best of all, because you can take a distinctive feature limitation and actually get points

[Paragon]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

I can respect your position on that, zornwill, but I have to disagree. IMO 4E left too much of the detail up to the GM. I've seen too many questions on the order of, "If I Shape Shift into a rock, I look and feel like one, but can someone with enhanced Smell find me because I don't smell like a rock? How about if someone tries to read my mind - does it appear to be just a rock to him?" House rules to fine-tune these situations abounded, without cross-campaign consistency. Now we're all pretty much on the same page. I like the clarity, and I'm actually quite comfortable with the new Shape Shift.

 

I don't have a huge problem with the construction of it, but I tend to think it's grossly overpriced. What in the end is usually a super disguise power a lot of the time shouldn't be as pricey as it often comes out.

[Crimson Arrow]

Originally posted by Paragon

I don't have a huge problem with the construction of it, but I tend to think it's grossly overpriced. What in the end is usually a super disguise power a lot of the time shouldn't be as pricey as it often comes out.

 

I agree with this. It's a side-effect of the "shopping list" approach to senses, plus all of the adders, which bump up the base cost of the power (IMHO) well above what you'd get for an equivalent number of points investef in STR or EB. Start adding in Advantages such as Reduced Endurance and you're looking a mucho points for a relatively minor power.

 

I also don't like the way Cellular is needed to duplicate fingerprints or retina patterns. A shapeshifter should be able to choose to create fingerprints without changing his DNA necessarily. I'd have liked to split the Adder, so that for 5 points you can replicate fine detail (such as fingerprints and retina patterns) and for a further 5 points (probably with "Fine Detail" as a pre-requisite), you can have Cellular, so that even the character's cells change.

 

Yes, I know I could house-rule it etc, but bearing in mind the granularity of the power in 5th Ed, I don't see this would have hurt.

[Paragon]

Originally posted by Crimson Arrow

Originally posted by Paragon

 

 

I agree with this. It's a side-effect of the "shopping list" approach to senses, plus all of the adders, which bump up the base cost of the power (IMHO) well above what you'd get for an equivalent number of points investef in STR or EB. Start

 

It doesn't need to be that bad, however, even with the shopping list. Use base costs of 5 and 3 for the first sense (targetting/nontargetting) and 3/2 for the secondaries, and the prices look much more reasonable. The adders are a little more problematic, perhaps.

 

 

adding in Advantages such as Reduced Endurance and you're looking a mucho points for a relatively minor power.

 

I also don't like the way Cellular is needed to duplicate fingerprints or retina patterns. A shapeshifter should be able to choose to create fingerprints without changing his DNA necessarily. I'd have liked to split the Adder, so that for 5 points you can replicate fine detail (such as fingerprints and retina patterns) and for a further 5 points (probably with "Fine Detail" as a pre-requisite), you can have Cellular, so that even the character's cells change.

 

Yes, I know I could house-rule it etc, but bearing in mind the granularity of the power in 5th Ed, I don't see this would have hurt.

 

Nor I. It's the single power I've seen more people look at and go "what the hell" than any other.

[Kristopher]

Life support bloated in cost quite a bit.

[Paragon]

Originally posted by Kristopher

Life support bloated in cost quite a bit.

 

That's true, and I'm sure those with "full life support" or certain subsets had some issues there, but in terms of absolute cost, it's still not as bad as Shapeshift.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Kristopher

Life support bloated in cost quite a bit.

 

True. I found the easiest way to fix this was to allow "Total Life Support" as the old 30 points but still allow for all the little subsets individually. So basically if you have 30 points' worth, the rest are "free" assuming they fit your concept.