The downsides of the Iron Age

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

there is no such thing as absolute truths in morality.

 

That is probably the attitude that I dislike the most about Iron Age - I like comics where ther is a Right and Wrong, and the heroes know which is which and fight on the side of right- no murky greyness, no political confusions, just tales of right and wrong with larger than life characters.

[Enforcer84]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

There does seem to be a difference. The character you mentioned is an alien' date=' different psychology and development not a human chilfd indulging in an inverted Peter Pan fantasy. I don't think the idea in and of itself is wrong, I think it was handled poorly and the degree to which the sexual angle was focussed on was in poor taste. Like many things in the later run it wasn't a bad idea in theory but the execution was poor and seemingly meant solely to shock value. I've had similar things come up in a couple of game, specfically Jane, a force grown clone that had the body of a teenaged girl was emotionally more like an 7-8 year old child and Eve an artifically intelligent robot without about the same issue.[/quote']

I'm a 35 year old man who's got the emotional maturity of an 8 year old (girl? No, I think boy).

[teh bunneh]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

I'm a 35 year old man who's got the emotional maturity of an 8 year old (girl? No, I think boy).

 

You've just described half of this board.

 

Bill.

(The other half are fictional hawt lesbians with muscle cars).

[bigdamnhero]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

With all the respect for the master' date=' I do prefer "superheroes save people and kill people - who deserve it". [/quote']

I was quoting Stan mostly for humor value. Still...my problem with your definition is: who decides who deserves it? Killing in self-defense or defense of others is one thing; setting oneself up as Judge Dred is quite another.

 

Saving Galactus was indeed the right thing to do' date=' since his continued existence was necessary to ensure the survival of the universe, which outweights even the zillion body count Galactus has been reaping. But he didn't know it, so he did the right thing for the completely wrong motivation. [/quote']

I would argue the writer's didn't know that at the time either, and only made that BS up afterwards to cover themselves. But hey, call me cynical.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Still...my problem with your definition is: who decides who deserves it? Killing in self-defense or defense of others is one thing; setting oneself up as Judge Dred is quite another.

 

I agree with your views and wish to sign up for your newsletter.

[zornwil]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

How so very, sadly true. Welcome to two unconfortable truths: any villain is the (misunderstood) hero of his/her own tale, and ultimately, there is no such thing as absolute truths in morality. It's like mathematics, it all depends on the initial arbitrary value assumptions one makes.

 

 

 

Indeed it doesn't, even in my definition. My own wholly arbitrary general definition of heroism is someone that is willing to sacrifice or put oneself to risk to advance the common good. I simply define superheroes as heroic people with superhuman powers.

 

 

 

Well, I might agree, so far as personal sensitivity does mean dedication or at least willingness to continued self-inquiry of one's actions and choices, and the attention that means do not wholly destroy the means do not become paralyzing bleeding-heart squeamishness to do the right or necessary thing for the greater good, which IMO is wholly unheroic. And I like to see moral dilemma to develop about "tough choices" that resonate as such according to my own sensibilities (e.g. this sweet innocent little girl is the beacon through which Chtultoid horrors are about to step into our world, in dire straits do I toss her through the portal to Hell to prevent them from crossing over; even if I plan to rescue her later, or I join her to protect, can I send an innocent to Hell). According to the my sensibility, some supposedly "tough choices" of comics are non-issues: to make a classical example, IMO the "natural" reaction to the modern, serial-killer version of the Joker is to rip out his heart and walk away whistling, the only case when an hero should be wringing his hands about it is the doubt that by killing him one might risk to do a worse harm to innocents (e.g. maybe he may resurrect more powerful than ever). I dislike complete sociopaths, but I also dislike shrinking violets who agonize anytime absolute scumbags meet their richly deserved fate.

Basically, yes, this is what I am saying.

[zornwil]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

That is probably the attitude that I dislike the most about Iron Age - I like comics where ther is a Right and Wrong' date=' and the heroes know which is which and fight on the side of right- no murky greyness, no political confusions, just tales of right and wrong with larger than life characters.[/quote']

I mean no offense, but I think this mentality - just as the Iron Age counter-extreme of pure relativism and no right choices - is what was generally very wrong with comics of the Silver and Golden Ages and while enjoyable tales can be told in this milieu (just as with the "everything sucks" milieu), in general it's just as limiting and myopic and ultimately - to me of course I mean - far removed from my (or any) reality that it generally is a poor basis for story-telling and generally shows.

 

But like I said either can be enjoyable - the looney sociopathy and meaninglessness of Lobo and the shoot 'em up judgements of the Shadow (or in an entirely different era and context the supernaturally-slay-'em antics of the Spectre) are prime excellent examples of post-modernist-influenced Iron Age and both Golden and even Silver/Bronze cusp but-with-right-and-wrong, all respectively, can be fun. Except in the most skilled of hands generally superficial, fleeting enjoyment of no consequence, but fun.

[Dominique]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Gentelmen, I think you are all forgeting the #1 downside of the Iron Age. Rob Liefield became a comic super star.

[Wanderer]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

That is probably the attitude that I dislike the most about Iron Age - I like comics where ther is a Right and Wrong' date=' and the heroes know which is which and fight on the side of right- no murky greyness, no political confusions, just tales of right and wrong with larger than life characters.[/quote']

 

With all the respect for your needs, the fact that Iron Age embraces the postmodern challenge to tradiitonal values ("God is a lie, Marx is a lie, the American Way is a lie, and I feel so angsty"), and that its stories are often plenty of self-serving creeps that wouldn't lift a finger to help the world without their fix in cash, fame, beer, and babes, it does not absolutely need that there isn't also plenty of idealistic guys that for all their character and moral faults and questionable political ideals, aren't always ready and willing to put themselves on the line to protect the world. That's all the distinction between Right and Wrong that I ever need to enjoy a story about heroism and to tell the right side. I don't need shining armors. They tire and make me afraid. The guy that risks his life to push back the planet-bursting asteroid ever remains the hero ever if he blasts away drug pushers and screws underage groupies in the free time. The lack of absolute morals dosn't mean the charcters cannot make plenty of meaningful ethical choices and "look right".

[zornwil]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Another thought, particularly to the relative (to this thread) extreme positions Wanderer and Lord Mhoram represented in their posts:

 

I think the "there is no right or wrong" and "there is absolute right and wrong and nothing inbetween" have nothing to do with great tales of heroism, super or otherwise. They may be the backdrop, they may or may not be the mentality of the writer, they may or may not be a central point of the tale. But the heroism of the tale comes neither the hopelessness of the protagonist in an ultimately-meaningless world nor the protagonist's terrible swift sword of certainty in a world of absolute moral certitude. In fact, these backdrops merely serve to help us identify with the hero's moral position - not his heroism itself. Rather, the heroism is centered on the role of the protagonist as endeavoring in conflict no matter the sacrifice (more or less) to do what he perceives as the best possible path according to a sense of right and wrong that touches our own sense of humanity. In that sense, any jingoistic imposition or any similarly indelicate ranting treatment, at least without consummate skill, is a threat to the durability and interest in the protagonist as hero.

 

And, of course, we are really screwed up by discussing "superheroes" as if all of what comics represent as what we call superheroes as actual true heroes. Comics are (like any medium) broader than that, and some costumed crusaders aren't intended necessarily as heroes. Due to the legacy of the genre this expectation exists on SOME level but that does not mean writers need to honor it (nor should they necessarily), and it also does not mean that all modern comics are going to operate on just this expectation.

 

For example, as I stated my favorite tales of superheroes are often about their daily lives. No conflict, exactly, certainly no tale of heroism there necessarily. So while it's a "superhero" comic, it's not really a tale of heroism.

 

Is the Punisher a hero? It depends - in tales where he struggles to do right in a world that has betrayed him, yes. In tales where he wreaks vengeance due to the personal satisfaction that brings without regard to anything else, without regard to any real right or wrong aside from satisfying a rage born of loss and resulting psychosis, no. Can either tale be excellent, engaging a reader? Absolutely.

 

If we took the movie Requiem for a Dream and dressed everyone up in spandex and gave them superpowers, it still wouldn't be a film about heroism. Nor should we impose upon it that expectation merely because the exploration of the topic of addiction utilizes a different setting.

[Wanderer]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

I was quoting Stan mostly for humor value. Still...my problem with your definition is: who decides who deserves it? Killing in self-defense or defense of others is one thing; setting oneself up as Judge Dred is quite another.

 

I can easily settle with superheroes that are ready and willing to kill to defend themselves, innocents, and the world, would balk at shooting thieves or slapping their mate, and do not tire my patience with crises of conscience about the demise of serial killers, terrorists, and mass murderers. I do not want to read about bleeding-heart saints. I want to read about heroic superhuman self-appointed warriors and protectors (or rebels) for mankind. Do not make me read (and lecture) about a moral dilemma that I wouldn't feel as such. The "good guy" soldier moral standard is the one I feel most confortable for superheroics also, and the one I feel most appropriate for the genre in modern times.

[Wanderer]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Another thought, particularly to the relative (to this thread) extreme positions Wanderer and Lord Mhoram represented in their posts:

 

I think the "there is no right or wrong" and "there is absolute right and wrong and nothing inbetween" have nothing to do with great tales of heroism, super or otherwise. They may be the backdrop, they may or may not be the mentality of the writer, they may or may not be a central point of the tale. But the heroism of the tale comes neither the hopelessness of the protagonist in an ultimately-meaningless world nor the protagonist's terrible swift sword of certainty in a world of absolute moral certitude. In fact, these backdrops merely serve to help us identify with the hero's moral position - not his heroism itself. Rather, the heroism is centered on the role of the protagonist as endeavoring in conflict no matter the sacrifice (more or less) to do what he perceives as the best possible path according to a sense of right and wrong that touches our own sense of humanity. In that sense, any jingoistic imposition or any similarly indelicate ranting treatment, at least without consummate skill, is a threat to the durability and interest in the protagonist as hero.

 

And, of course, we are really screwed up by discussing "superheroes" as if all of what comics represent as what we call superheroes as actual true heroes. Comics are (like any medium) broader than that, and some costumed crusaders aren't intended necessarily as heroes. Due to the legacy of the genre this expectation exists on SOME level but that does not mean writers need to honor it (nor should they necessarily), and it also does not mean that all modern comics are going to operate on just this expectation.

 

For example, as I stated my favorite tales of superheroes are often about their daily lives. No conflict, exactly, certainly no tale of heroism there necessarily. So while it's a "superhero" comic, it's not really a tale of heroism.

 

Is the Punisher a hero? It depends - in tales where he struggles to do right in a world that has betrayed him, yes. In tales where he wreaks vengeance due to the personal satisfaction that brings without regard to anything else, without regard to any real right or wrong aside from satisfying a rage born of loss and resulting psychosis, no. Can either tale be excellent, engaging a reader? Absolutely.

 

If we took the movie Requiem for a Dream and dressed everyone up in spandex and gave them superpowers, it still wouldn't be a film about heroism. Nor should we impose upon it that expectation merely because the exploration of the topic of addiction utilizes a different setting.

 

Well, I couldn't agree more. Well said

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Another thought, particularly to the relative (to this thread) extreme positions Wanderer and Lord Mhoram represented in their posts:

 

I think the "there is no right or wrong" and "there is absolute right and wrong and nothing inbetween" have nothing to do with great tales of heroism, super or otherwise.

 

I never meant to say there was nothing in between, howver that might not have come out in my posts. I enjoy a number of Iron Age comics, I just don't like them when that is all (or even most) of what there is. I tended towards an extreme attitude in the thread mostly to be concise, but it misconstrued my position.

 

My favorite comic is astro city which is all about dealing with issues that aren't right or wrong, or standing up for the right - it deals with muddled issues.

 

I just want my superheroes to be someone I would consider a good guy by my personal values, and judge jury and executor heroes, oversexed heroes, and such are not the kind of things I enjoy reading about.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

I mean no offense' date=' but I think this mentality - just as the Iron Age counter-extreme of pure relativism and no right choices - is what was generally very wrong with comics of the Silver and Golden Ages.[/quote']

 

I agree. I was overstating my position.

 

Johns run in the JSA, and Busiek in just about anything he writes has a sense of heroism, but not the black and white of earlier ages. That is really what I like to read (and play).

[nexus]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

I'm a 35 year old man who's got the emotional maturity of an 8 year old (girl? No, I think boy).

 

Here's your t-shirt and member card. Meetings are on Tuesdays, there's pie.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

And, of course, we are really screwed up by discussing "superheroes" as if all of what comics represent as what we call superheroes as actual true heroes. Comics are (like any medium) broader than that, and some costumed crusaders aren't intended necessarily as heroes. Due to the legacy of the genre this expectation exists on SOME level but that does not mean writers need to honor it (nor should they necessarily), and it also does not mean that all modern comics are going to operate on just this expectation.

 

For example, as I stated my favorite tales of superheroes are often about their daily lives. No conflict, exactly, certainly no tale of heroism there necessarily. So while it's a "superhero" comic, it's not really a tale of heroism.

 

Good points all, as normal for ya Zornwil.

 

Is the Punisher a hero? It depends - in tales where he struggles to do right in a world that has betrayed him, yes. In tales where he wreaks vengeance due to the personal satisfaction that brings without regard to anything else, without regard to any real right or wrong aside from satisfying a rage born of loss and resulting psychosis, no. Can either tale be excellent, engaging a reader? Absolutely.

 

That one to me is all about setting and approach. In an action movie situation, the Punisher is an action hero. In a four color comic book world, he is a villian and should be brought in.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

That one to me is all about setting and approach. In an action movie situation' date=' the Punisher is an action hero. In a four color comic book world, he is a villian and should be brought in.[/quote']

And personally I can take either approach. It's when they try to have it both ways that I get irritated.

[zornwil]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

I never meant to say there was nothing in between, howver that might not have come out in my posts. I enjoy a number of Iron Age comics, I just don't like them when that is all (or even most) of what there is. I tended towards an extreme attitude in the thread mostly to be concise, but it misconstrued my position.

 

My favorite comic is astro city which is all about dealing with issues that aren't right or wrong, or standing up for the right - it deals with muddled issues.

 

I just want my superheroes to be someone I would consider a good guy by my personal values, and judge jury and executor heroes, oversexed heroes, and such are not the kind of things I enjoy reading about.

That's okay, it gave me an excuse to address extremes.

 

I kinda figured and that was part of the reason I did want to say "in their posts" to represent that I wasn't necessarily trying to accredit a general aesthetic extreme to your entire person. Hope I didn't tick you off at all.

[zornwil]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Good points all, as normal for ya Zornwil.

 

 

 

That one to me is all about setting and approach. In an action movie situation, the Punisher is an action hero. In a four color comic book world, he is a villian and should be brought in.

 

And personally I can take either approach. It's when they try to have it both ways that I get irritated.

 

 

 

Makes sense on all fronts.

 

As to those who try to have it both ways, I blame Stan Lee as one of those - I read his "heroes don't kill" thing before and was thinking, "Wait, I thought you worked at Marvel in the '80s and '90s...".

 

Honestly, I'm not much of a Lee fan, I think he's incredibly over-rated (PS - and meant to add, and hence I admit to some prejudice when reading his comments).

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

You've just described half of this board.

 

Bill.

(The other half are fictional hawt lesbians with muscle cars).

And some of us are both

[transmetahuman]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

There are bad-writing trends I've been noticing that I was going to list, but I figure they don't have anything to do with the "Iron Ageyness" of the books. What it comes down to for me, the biggest stumbling block to enjoying certain titles, is the increasing number of characters that I just don't like. I have to be able to sympathize with and root for the protagonists, at least a little bit, for the story of their victories to be fun to read. It's ironic that the Iron Age has brought a lot of stories from the villains' point of view where I can root for the villains a lot easier than for the heroes of other books.

 

I don't like the worship of Badassedness that's all around. I don't like swaggering machismo. I don't like how two out of every three new character's powers are basically built-in Big Guns (whether real guns or energy blasts).

 

I can deal with a bit of "soldier mentality", but I worry that it's getting out of hand. War zones are a limited venue for stories, aren't known for generating emotional growth or more than a small handful of positive qualities in the people stuck in them, and in some titles the entire world is nothing but a war zone. It's stunted and depressing, and for me, not particularly realistic or relevant.

 

There's a lot about the Iron Age I love, and I don't even think I'd go back if it was up to me, but every time I read a "my d**k's bigger than yours" story I get a little more turned off of comics in general. It's sadly obvious that I'm not the target audience, and don't even want to meet them. I despise bullies.

[TheRavenIs]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

The more I read this thread I am so thankful I don't read comics anymore. I can't see 'Rust Age' as anything but stories about beings that are human but in my eyes not HEROES. That's why I read comics in the first place to escape the real world and to read stories of beings that transend the mundane and go beyond.

 

I like Characters that have a human side to them, stories that show the probleams thay come with having abilities others don't, but I don't want to read stories about so-called HEROES that should be in jail for the actions they take outside the Heroic ID.

 

Heroes are suppost to be real people that just happen to be more-than-human, but still act in both lives they lead as good people. Anything else and the they become the villians.

[CountZero]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Frankly, I haven't been seriously reading actual individual issue comic books for a while now, I've been going with the TPBs, in part because I haven't quite had the steady income in the past to have a subscription to a comic, or even to feel comfortable setting up a pull box at my FLC&GS. So, consequently, I know nada about Rob Liefeld, frankly, and I haven't really read enough Iron Age comics to say nail down ideas about what I like and don't like about the Iron Age comics.

 

So I'll use moments, characters, and titles to signify what I like and don't like instead.

 

Likes:

Marvel MAX Punisher.

Iron Age Beta Ray Bill (especially as portrayed in Stormbreaker).

Kyle Rayner.

The Warren Ellis Authority run (especially The Midnighter driving their battleship-thingie through the bad guy's base in the first storyline).

Astro City

Frank Miller's Sin City

Daredevil (both Kevin Smith's, Bendis' and Mack's runs on the comic - and I especially love Mack's art style in addition to his writing).

Kingdom Come

Ultimate Spider-Man

Astonishing X-Men (especially Joss' run).

 

Dislikes:

Marvel Knights Punisher (specifically Garth Ennis's tenure, though I liked his run on Hellblazer).

Everything on The Authority after Warren Ellis left.

The Ultimates (especially Ultimates Hulk)

Ultimate X-Men at current (up to a certain point I kind of liked it, but a lot of the more recent stuff I don't like).

Marvel Mangaverse (except for Mangaverse Doc Strange).

 

And that's all I've got for now. I haven't read Marvel in a while, especially leading up to Civil War, and I'm far enough behind that it'd be a bit late for me to get into Civil War now, which is why I don't have any Marvel titles on my pull sheet, not because I hate the current state of Marvel comics, but because at present I'd be pretty lost).

 

Just tossing in my two bits.

[David Johnston]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

There are bad-writing trends I've been noticing that I was going to list, but I figure they don't have anything to do with the "Iron Ageyness" of the books.

 

I don't like the worship of Badassedness that's all around.

.

 

Of course that's why they call it the "Iron Age" in the first place. It's analogous to the classical "Iron Age" Hesiod's label for what he saw as the war-filled violent times he lived in.

[Enforcer84]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Here's your t-shirt and member card. Meetings are on Tuesdays' date=' there's pie. [/quote']

Sweet! Pie.