Homage

[Sean Waters]

It struck me that, whilst Hero is obviously the best rpg out there, other systems do occasionally have moments of inspiration, and some of them might be adaptable, probably as optional/campaign rules to Hero games.

 

I thought we might use this thread to highlight such rules, systems and ideas, and discuss how we could usefully adapt them to Hero.

 

Any suggestions?

[Vestnik]

Re: Homage

 

It's very genre-specific, but I was always fond of the Call of Cthulhu Sanity mechanic. This has been discussed before I believe.

 

(I like that system in general.)

[mattingly]

Re: Homage

 

I find that Hero Points from Mutants & Masterminds are a nice addition to other systems.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Homage

 

It's very genre-specific, but I was always fond of the Call of Cthulhu Sanity mechanic. This has been discussed before I believe.

 

(I like that system in general.)

 

Oddly enough I was thinking about that today and had come to the conclusion that a sanity check would be an Ego roll (possibly with minuses) or lose Nd6 PRE, where N=(attacker's PRE/5) or N PRE if you make the roll.

 

When you get down to 0 PRE you gain a madness, having to make Ego rolls or give in to it, with Ego rolls penalised depending how low your Presence got.

[Vestnik]

Re: Homage

 

Oddly enough I was thinking about that today and had come to the conclusion that a sanity check would be an Ego roll (possibly with minuses) or lose Nd6 PRE, where N=(attacker's PRE/5) or N PRE if you make the roll.

 

When you get down to 0 PRE you gain a madness, having to make Ego rolls or give in to it, with Ego rolls penalised depending how low your Presence got.

 

I think one problem here might be that being insane in CoC does not mean you are not impressive and/or persuasive (think all the lunatic wizards that people Lovecraftland). (So I think the PRE loss would have to be qualified. If I'm understanding you correctly.)

 

CoC also has temporary insanity, which I could I suppose be modeled by a Transform linked to the PRE loss that heals back normally or with therapy.

 

There's also the maximum Sanity determined by your Cthulhu Mythos skill level (ignorance is bliss!). Don't know offhand who you would model that.

[OddHat]

Re: Homage

 

GURPS Voodoo and later GURPS Spirits had a very nice Advantages + Skills way of handling virtually any level of magic, from completely authentic religious rituals (that actually in mechanical terms work as believers think they do) to Super Magery. I've often thought of trying a conversion.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Homage

 

I think one problem here might be that being insane in CoC does not mean you are not impressive and/or persuasive (think all the lunatic wizards that people Lovecraftland). (So I think the PRE loss would have to be qualified. If I'm understanding you correctly.)

 

CoC also has temporary insanity, which I could I suppose be modeled by a Transform linked to the PRE loss that heals back normally or with therapy.

 

There's also the maximum Sanity determined by your Cthulhu Mythos skill level (ignorance is bliss!). Don't know offhand who you would model that.

 

In this instance, if I used these rules, i'd say that the PRE acted like 'stun i.e. the actual characteristic did not vary (which determines 'impressiveness', but the 'current amount' would (which determines madness).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Homage

 

GURPS Voodoo and later GURPS Spirits had a very nice Advantages + Skills way of handling virtually any level of magic' date=' from completely authentic religious rituals (that actually in mechanical terms work as believers think they do) to Super Magery. I've often thought of trying a conversion.[/quote']

 

Not seen those books, but it sounds interesting.

[OddHat]

Re: Homage

 

Not seen those books' date=' but it sounds interesting.[/quote']

 

GURPS Voodoo is worth picking up, even if you're not a GURPS fan.

 

The basics: All rituals/spells involve in some way communicating with and calling on the powers of spirits.

 

Rituals require Time, Location (a Sacred Space), and a Sacrifice.

 

You may still try to perform a ritual even lacking one of the above elements, but the penalties are significant.

 

Rituals fall under general skill categories (Wicca, Hermetic Magic, Santaria, etc), sub categories (Body, Mind, Spirit, etc) and individual rituals (Call the Spirit, Bind the Spirit, Sanctification, Protection, Heal the Body, etc). If you lack the skill for a specific ritual, you can still try to perform it using the skill above it in the progression, at increasingly greater penalties. So, a given character might have "Wicca, 20-" and no sub categories or rituals. She could still try to perform any individual ritual in the Wiccan tradition, but her roll would be at Wicca Skill -10 or less. Another character might have Wicca 13-, Spirit 13-, Call the Spirit 13-, and Bind the Spirit 13-. He would know much less about Wicca in general than the first character, and be terrible at improvising, but he'd be quite reliable when it came to calling and binding spirits.

 

You also take Advantages described as levels of Initiation. Essentially, the first level of initiation removes the penalties the uninitiated take when trying to perform a ritual. Each additional level removes one ritual element. The highest level initiates can dispense with all three ritual elements, performing rituals with a thought and perhaps a whispered word.

 

Fantasy Hero discuses similar systems for HERO.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Homage

 

I like Primetime Adventures' fan mail and screen presence mechanics.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Homage

 

Would this mean that you don't buy spells, but just the skills to use them, with the actual spells being 'part of the campaign world'?

 

That sounds like an interesting idea. Unless anywone witht he skill should be able to costmagic, I might include a 'Use magic' talent at various levels for the ability to wield magical power at various levels, so that you can use your knowledge ina direct and practical way...that or require really very high skill rolls (and no buying group levels with magic) to cast, say 10 points to cast spells up to 30 active points, 20 to cast spells up to 60 active points, etc....

 

Has a lot of potential, and sounds like a good way to get round the often prohibitive cost of magic in a low point game.

 

Ever seen a game called Stormbringer (the Chaosium Elric game)? The magic system worked in an unusual way: every spell was a summoning and you would call a demon to create whaever effect you wanted: want to be able to read an ancient script you would summon a knowledge demon to translate for you, if you wanted a wind to blow your ship across the sea, an air demon, and if you want to immolate your enemy in fire, a fire demon. Not so much an innovative system but it did add a lot of flavour to the game as you basically had to negotiate with these demons for services and either had to compell of persuade them to do your bidding.

[OddHat]

Re: Homage

 

Would this mean that you don't buy spells' date=' but just the skills to use them, with the actual spells being 'part of the campaign world'?[/quote']

 

Pretty much. You buy the skill to perform the ritual / spell, but you don't pay points for the effect. The balance is in the GM's hands, as he can declare whatever conditions (Time, Place, Sacrifice) and skill penalties for the ritual he deems appropriate. If the player wants to be able to ignore those conditions, he buys progressively higher levels of the Initiation advantage. A level 1 initiate can use rituals / spells without the base -5 penalty suffered by non-initiates (that penalty being the reason that most Priests can't turn wine into blood even if they know the secret ritual; they lack initiation), a level 2 initiate can ignore one of Time, Location, or Sacrifice requirements, and so on. If you buy four levels of initiation, you can perform rituals / spells as an attack action (in HERO terms) anywhere you like and without needing to make a sacrifice. The GM can still limit rituals by declaring that an element simply can't be dropped, or that a ritual to do X just does not exist in your tradition.

 

That sounds like an interesting idea. Unless anywone witht he skill should be able to costmagic, I might include a 'Use magic' talent at various levels for the ability to wield magical power at various levels, so that you can use your knowledge ina direct and practical way...that or require really very high skill rolls (and no buying group levels with magic) to cast, say 10 points to cast spells up to 30 active points, 20 to cast spells up to 60 active points, etc....

 

Yup, that can be done pretty smoothly as well, probably by building it into your level of initiation.

 

Ever seen a game called Stormbringer (the Chaosium Elric game)? The magic system worked in an unusual way: every spell was a summoning and you would call a demon to create whaever effect you wanted: want to be able to read an ancient script you would summon a knowledge demon to translate for you, if you wanted a wind to blow your ship across the sea, an air demon, and if you want to immolate your enemy in fire, a fire demon. Not so much an innovative system but it did add a lot of flavour to the game as you basically had to negotiate with these demons for services and either had to compell of persuade them to do your bidding.

 

Played it a few times many years ago.

 

Voodoo has a similar idea, in that some (GM's discretion) effects require direct negotiation with a spirit. A wizard who flies probably doesn't know a ritual of flight; instead, he bound or otherwise made a direct deal with a powerful spirit, who is now riding / possessing him, allowing him to fly.

 

The Voodoo setting also supported semi-superheroes, Spirit Warriors who allowed themselves to be possessed in order to gain power(s) before battle.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Homage

 

I like the L5R duelling mechanism (in theory, anyway) and I could see using that as an analogue for when two blasters fire at eachother and the blasts meet in the middle and surge this way and that until one overwhelms the other.

[gojira]

Re: Homage

 

More, expanded Luck rules, similar to Deadland's or RDU Neil's Luck house-rules.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Homage

 

I'm passionate about intelligent vehicle design, not vehicle=character design. BattleTech reigns supreme for this, IMO. Since it uses rescaled hexes, many people (or so I'm told) import it directly. I'd love to get my hands on that shiny new rules compilation, personally.

 

d20 has no apologies about giving ph$t l3wtz 2 p33pz at no cost - in other words, tricking people out in game without freaking over whether it's properly balanced. Give a brother a sword, it's not the end of the world. This is more philosophical, but something I'm strongly behind.

 

Simplify, Simplify, Simplify. HERO suffers from self over-complication at times, and it takes a technical writer to turn it back into English. I understand that Darren's Lucha Libre HERO addresses this exactly, so when I get it, I'll have more to say on the topic.

[Mister E]

Re: Homage

 

My group started a new Warhammer Fantasy rpg about a month ago. What I like best about the game, is how quickly the players are introduced to the setting with the random profession tables. The advancement scheme is likewise very organic; giving choices, but not letting the characters get lost in the options; nor letting them forget where/who they are.

 

I'm playing a Protagonist (a guy who starts fights for money). In a few more sessions I'll move into the Duelest (a fighting man with a reputation to maintain)... and from there eventually into the Champion profession (a high-falutin' universal martial expert who represents causes and/or individuals with power). It's lovely. So far I've developed an insane fear of blood (due to the horrors revealed in the tomb of an ancient Korn Champion), and have to talk like Bela Jugosi's Dracula (my take on the character's regional accent suggested in the setting book).

 

What's most sweet, is that it could all be very easily converted into HERO without loosing any of the finished game touches.

 

Oh yeah, and I was born under the constellation of the Two Bollocks (part of the random character generation system)... and my fortune reads, "Thou art not as good as thou thinkest thou art." ...very auspicious.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Homage

 

My group started a new Warhammer Fantasy rpg about a month ago. What I like best about the game, is how quickly the players are introduced to the setting with the random profession tables. The advancement scheme is likewise very organic; giving choices, but not letting the characters get lost in the options; nor letting them forget where/who they are.

 

I'm playing a Protagonist (a guy who starts fights for money). In a few more sessions I'll move into the Duelest (a fighting man with a reputation to maintain)... and from there eventually into the Champion profession (a high-falutin' universal martial expert who represents causes and/or individuals with power). It's lovely. So far I've developed an insane fear of blood (due to the horrors revealed in the tomb of an ancient Korn Champion), and have to talk like Bela Jugosi's Dracula (my take on the character's regional accent suggested in the setting book).

 

What's most sweet, is that it could all be very easily converted into HERO without loosing any of the finished game touches.

 

Oh yeah, and I was born under the constellation of the Two Bollocks (part of the random character generation system)... and my fortune reads, "Thou art not as good as thou thinkest thou art." ...very auspicious.

 

I agree that Warhammer, despite the fact that it ruined Games Workshop as a place to go to look for rpgs, is a really excellent system in terms of the background and the way that is realised in the system. I'm not that keen on the mechanics, but they are not bad, just not that inspiring: however the character progression really is good, as you say - if you really want to you can start anywhere and finish anywhere but there are certainly some paths that are easier to follow than others. Moreover the idea of 'career advancement' is a good one: I've never been entirely happy with the Hero XP system and it would be nice to see some alternatives, even though it is entirely in keeping with the very 'player trusting' ethos of the game. It would help if I trusted players, I suppose....

[Sean Waters]

Re: Homage

 

One really nice bit from the version of Villains and Vigillantes I have is the criminal legal system: it condenses it all down to 2 pages, and it boils down tot his: whether you are found guilty of an offence you are accused of is simply a matter fo a single dice roll. You have a 25% chance of acquittal if you actually committed the offence and a 75% chance if you didn't, and these figures are modified by certain factors that the players can influence: how much evidence is there? Was it obtained legally? Will witnesses (often PCs) actually turn up to give evidence? Have witnesses been knobled? Do you have a hanging Judge, or one int he pocket of the Mob?

 

Even though there is not a lot to it in terms of column inches, it is a very fully realised and not at all unrealistic system.

 

You could drop the whole thing into Hero (only having to change the percentile dice to 3d6) pretty much wholesale, or creatively adapt the idea with no real bother.

[Mister E]

Re: Homage

 

I agree that Warhammer' date=' despite the fact that it ruined Games Workshop as a place to go to look for rpgs, is a really excellent system in terms of the background and the way that is realised in the system. I'm not that keen on the mechanics, but they are not bad, just not that inspiring: however the character progression really is good, as you say - if you really want to you can start anywhere and finish anywhere but there are certainly some paths that are easier to follow than others. Moreover the idea of 'career advancement' is a good one: I've never been entirely happy with the Hero XP system and it would be nice to see some alternatives, even though it is entirely in keeping with the very 'player trusting' ethos of the game. It would help if I trusted players, I suppose.... [/quote']

 

Trust no one!

 

The new game is published by Green Ronin... I'm not sure how Games Workshop is involved anymore. My guess is that the horrible miniature games they produced killed them somewhat. (unrestrained power-ramping) Fun to paint... garbage to play.

 

We use XP's, but for a conversion you'd only use them within the guided parameters of the progression system. It's the finish game part.

 

We have also initiated a house ruling that if your character drifts in a certain professional direction in-game, you can pay a cheap XP fee to skip to a profession you wouldn't normally have an exit to... though I don't predict this option will be utilized by any of us since we're pretty involved in our current schemes... and would loose the precious points needed to improve our characters.

 

... ah, and the only way to get rid of my character's insane fear of blood is in-game, and both very costly and very rare. Fortunately, in the mean time, there is an alchemical concoction that could fix me up when needed, but will probably lead to an addiction (second insanity).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Homage

 

Trust no one!

 

The new game is published by Green Ronin... I'm not sure how Games Workshop is involved anymore. My guess is that the horrible miniature games they produced killed them somewhat. (unrestrained power-ramping) Fun to paint... garbage to play.

 

We use XP's, but for a conversion you'd only use them within the guided parameters of the progression system. It's the finish game part.

 

We have also initiated a house ruling that if your character drifts in a certain professional direction in-game, you can pay a cheap XP fee to skip to a profession you wouldn't normally have an exit to... though I don't predict this option will be utilized by any of us since we're pretty involved in our current schemes... and would loose the precious points needed to improve our characters.

 

... ah, and the only way to get rid of my character's insane fear of blood is in-game, and both very costly and very rare. Fortunately, in the mean time, there is an alchemical concoction that could fix me up when needed, but will probably lead to an addiction (second insanity).

 

 

I think that for Hero we could only ever use something liek this for genre books, but teh principle is a sound one.

 

On a much more limited scale we had a rule about XP spends: you could only spend XP on a skill that you had not got (to attain basic competency, with GM permission) or on a skill you had both succeeded AND failed with in-game. This made it easy to progress in the middle ground but hard at the extremes: as it should be IMO. Mind you, due to the (relative) number of combat rols that was pretty much always an option people could take up, Ah well.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Homage

 

I agree with Dave, Hero Points from Mutants & Masterminds is a great mechanic, as are their Equipment rules.

 

As for Sanity, I've always ruled that SAN = [Ego+Pre] and are just points that may be burned through. For a SAN Roll, you take (SAN/10) + 9 ... and the critters have a SAN Damage rating that does "SAN" damage much like the CoC works

[SuperKlaus]

Re: Homage

 

I like the L5R duelling mechanism (in theory' date=' anyway) and I could see using that as an analogue for when two blasters fire at eachother and the blasts meet in the middle and surge this way and that until one overwhelms the other.[/quote']

 

I understand Ninja HERO offers rules for the contest of energy blasts. Dunno what they are but if I were to just come up with something I'd say the superior blast (rated in terms of DCs and Advantages pertaining to damage) pushes the inferior blast back at a rate of, oh, 1" per 5 excess AP per Phase. Energy contests begin when two guys DEX-off to go first and intend to use EBs. The EBs are considered Continuous until somebody gets hit, which will be automatic when one blast overwhelms the other.

 

Regarding L5R duels specifically, I've actually put some thought into trying to convert them. I actually like the L5R 3e rules's ability to match the feel of the setting, but hey, HERO's pretty pimpin'. Anyway, I was going with a fairly large Aid DEX Triggered by Holding your Action and needing a Half Phase to reset, Fades as soon as you attack, Doesn't Work if Character Moves Prior to Holding, maybe Requires Fast Draw Roll, Costs END if you're the kind of guy who likes the duelists to strain a little. Check out my theorized sequence of events and tell me what you think:

 

1. The guy who initiates the duel Holds his Action, receiving an improved DEX (he doesn't just attack because that's just not what you do in duels).

 

2. The other guy is now disinclined to attack on his Phase because if he does his DEX-amped opponent is more likely to win the DEX-off. The Aids are kinda big because it takes 15 CP of DEX to improve your roll. Alternately maybe the guy's disinclined to attack because he wants more OCV to match his enemy's new DCV, which requires smaller numbers to obtain.

 

3. The first guy spends a Half Phase reloading the Aid, and Holds, setting off the Aid. Or perhaps he feels ballsy and attacks.

 

4. If the first guy Held, the other guy Holds (Focuses) or attacks (Strikes), and so on until one guy is forced to strike because he's reached his Aid cap.

 

The relative skill of duelists can now be represented not only by Fast Draw Skill and DEX but also Aid dice and limit. Also, while a PC could Hold for just a moment at the beginning of a normal swordfight to let him begin hostilities in style, the time needed to reload the Trigger prevents him from doing it excessively. The first actor in a duel could Hold for only a moment and then attack before his opponent can Focus / Strike, but again, the GM will just have to outlaw that to keep things in the proper spirit.

[Vestnik]

Re: Homage

 

I agree with Dave' date=' Hero Points from [i']Mutants & Masterminds[/i] is a great mechanic, as are their Equipment rules.

 

As for Sanity, I've always ruled that SAN = [Ego+Pre] and are just points that may be burned through. For a SAN Roll, you take (SAN/10) + 9 ... and the critters have a SAN Damage rating that does "SAN" damage much like the CoC works

 

Do you duplicate CoC's rule of their being an upper limit to Sanity determined by the character's knowledge of the mythos? It seems un-Heroish on the surface of it, since Hero doesn't have maximum scores for characteristics built into the system. (Though they can always be imposed.)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Homage

 

Do you duplicate CoC's rule of their being an upper limit to Sanity determined by the character's knowledge of the mythos? It seems un-Heroish on the surface of it' date=' since Hero doesn't have maximum scores for characteristics built into the system. (Though they can always be imposed.)[/quote']

 

Perhaps the Mythos knowledge, as well as spells, have a side effect which Drains Ego/PRE, but only for purposes of maximum sanity.

 

The bigger issue, to me, with this mechanic in Hero is that CoC's scale was considerably larger than a normal's PRE + EGO, so the reductions need to be more granular. As well, a character with a KS: Cthulhu Mythos of even 8- (Familiarity) effectively has a 37.5% in C0C terms.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Homage

 

OK, let us go with PREx5 as the maximum 'sanity' from which you take damage, either using Ego/5 as sanity defence or making an Ego roll to take a lower amount of damage (say 1 point per die of sanity damage).

 

That way both Presence and Ego play a major roll in your sanity, but do completely different things.

 

Now this also means that Joe average only has 40 or 50 sanity to start with...so is madness triggered at certain levels (i.e. when you get to 0, for example) or at certain proportions of the maximum (say at 50% 'damage' of your normal maximum you pick up a tick, at 75% you go a little loopy and at 100% we usher in full blown psychosis....)

 

As for Mythos knowlege, well first off you make it a general skill, rather than an INT based one...otherwise a smarter character will have a higher roll, and be naturally madder...or, if you take the other approach, a smarter character can deal with a lot more Mythos knowledge. For each skill plus you purchase, your maximum sanity suffers a 5 point penalty, or perhaps -1d6 or -2d6, if you like it a bit more random.

 

Finally I'd take Mythos Knowledge right out of the normal XP system: you can't spend points on it - each time you fail a sanity Ego roll, you have to make a check against your current Mythos Knowledge and if you FAIL (i.e. this was something that was outside your current knowledge) you get +1 skill level with Mythos Knowledge.

 

Now to make it just like CoC, which uses percentiles, theoretically a MK of 18- should mean your are mad - and it doesn't under this suggestion - so perhaps each skill level ought to have a bigger effect: you have 7 levels to worry about, and the maximum human sanity would be 100 under this suggestion, so the sanity loss should exceed 14 points. Either 15 points per level then, or 4d6+1.