This is why I play Fantasy Hero

[Ner0Sputnik]

Re: This is why I play Fantasy Hero

 

That totally reminds me of this group I played with... once.

 

I'd been playing Hero for quite a while. There was no one in the area who wanted to play Hero but my friend played with a D&D group.

 

I went over, made a half-elf "scout" (thief subclass... god, I hate classes) or something. Despite being able to wear better armor I opted out and chose something light... because that's what my character would wear as a military scout. They all made fun and looked at me like I was crazy. I really didn't care.

 

At one point we were in combat and I was up on this wagon where I had just dispatched someone... being a lithe character I described what I was going to do when I attacked my opponent (who was on the ground.) "I run across the wagon, do a sideways, cartwheel flip over him and hit him with my spear as I land...

 

The GM looked at me in shock and awe. "Ummmmm..." Flips through book. "If you're going to do that you're going to have to make an acrobatics check and a... you're also going to have a negative to hit."

 

"No, I'm just trying to spice up combat by telling you the special effect of how I hit him."

 

"Yeah, but to pull that off you're going to have to make some rolls..."

 

::sigh:: Now I'm frustrated, so in my most monotone voice I say, "Fine. I walk up to him and hit him with my spear."

 

Suddenly it clicks for the GM. He says, "I see what you're doing, ok."

 

Elated, I describe it again, acting it out and roll the die as I feign a stabbing motion... and roll a fekkin' 1............. figures.

 

BUT, the GM at least had something to play with.

 

"OK. You misstep and land wrong, accidentally stabbing your spear into the ground and breaking it on your fall."

 

That's ok, I'll take it. LOL

[Bik Britelite]

Re: This is why I play Fantasy Hero

 

Thats where the GM is supposed to say,

 

"Cool. Make a jump/acrobatics/tumble check, say DC 15. If you make it, I'll give you a +1 to hit, if you fail it, a -1 to attack. If you get a 5 or less, its an Attack of Opportunity."

 

Allow the players to make a cinimatic attack means they are at least paying attention to the game and are trying to interact with it a little. I admit that too much of this will become tedious and in effect, boring. But allowing the player to interact within the game with some flair should be encouraged at all times.

 

Now, if you come up with a crazy catch-phrase while doing so . . . that's just extra eps.

[TheRealVector]

Re: This is why I play Fantasy Hero

 

I know you're joking but you've reminded me nonetheless of one of the best paladins I ever saw played - the player was my fiancee at the time (now my wife) who didn't have a long history with role playing and the various tropes. She took one look at the description of the paladin class and played one of the most ruthless characters I've ever seen. As she explained it the guy was a holy warrior, utterly convinced of the rightness of his cause. He was definitely lawful and definitely good, but he was not a nice guy in the least. In the example you mention he wouldn't try to spread his faith to the orcs (his faith was not one that tried to convert others) and if the orcs had been raiding, thieving & killing in the area anyway then *even if they had been human* the law would probably have sentenced them to death anyway. So he'd kill them without a second thought.

 

/Offtopic

 

Actually, that is pretty much standard DnD Paladin character behavior.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: This is why I play Fantasy Hero

 

D&D is just a ridiculously complicated board game. Seriously. People that use it for more than that are invariably going outside / around the system to do it. However, it has concepts that can be mined and it is a good introductory game system.

[Susano]

Re: This is why I play Fantasy Hero

 

I wonder what the attacks of opporunity would be like?

 

This:

 

[mayapuppies]

Re: This is why I play Fantasy Hero

 

Oh dammit! I can't rep you Susano! That is just so damn perfect!

[CourtFool]

Re: This is why I play Fantasy Hero

 

Allow the players to make a cinimatic attack means they are at least paying attention to the game and are trying to interact with it a little. I admit that too much of this will become tedious and in effect' date=' boring. But allowing the player to interact within the game with some flair should be encouraged at all times.[/quote']

 

Tedious and boring...unlike "I attack him with my sword"?

[Vondy]

Re: This is why I play Fantasy Hero

 

Tedious and boring...unlike "I attack him with my sword"?

 

No, tedious and boring like so...

 

"Pushing myself backwards from the table in my chair and scooping up my bowl of sour cabbage and pork noodle soup without losing a single drop, I catch his thrusting sword blade with my chopsticks when it's glinting razor edge is less than an inch from my face; in the same fluid motion I stand and twist his sword from his grip with my chopsticks and give him a front-kick to the chin, losing not a drop of my precious dinner while calling out to the lithe, comely waitress in the red and gold cheongsom: "I want to speak to the manager at once - your establishment has a pest problem.""

[Susano]

Re: This is why I play Fantasy Hero

 

Or...

 

"Pushing myself backwards from my steaming bowl of sour cabbage and pork noodle soup while still sitting in my chair I catch his thrusting sword blade with my chopsticks when it's glinting razor edge is less than an inch from my face. Standing and smoothly scooping up my soup-bowl in my free hand I twist his sword from his grip with my chopsticks and kick him right in the face, losing not a drop of my precious dinner while calling out to the lithe waitress in the red and gold cheongsom: "I want to speak to the manager - your establishment has a pest problem."

 

Someone has been playing Feng Shui!

[Vondy]

Re: This is why I play Fantasy Hero

 

Someone has been playing Feng Shui!

 

I've never even opened the rulebook....

 

But my swords and sorcery games, and swashbuckling games often sound an awful lot like that. For some reason spaghetti western and martial arts tropes manage to work themselves in no matter what.

[Susano]

Re: This is why I play Fantasy Hero

 

I've never even opened the rulebook....

 

Well, you've pegged the recommended way to describe a Stunt perfectly.

 

But my swords and sorcery games' date=' and swashbuckling games often sound an awful lot like that. For some reason spaghetti western and martial arts tropes manage to work themselves in no matter what. [/quote']

 

Sounds good to me.

[UltraRob]

Re: This is why I play Fantasy Hero

 

Sounds good to me too! I WISH my players did that sort of thing! (Actually, one does, and I reward him for it, the others...not so much...)

 

Rob

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: This is why I play Fantasy Hero

 

One of my players, in a recent combat, lunged off his horse onto the end of a line of soldiers blocking the way, describing his visceral shout, and snarl after he landed (rolling neatly back onto his feet, as the dice would have it).

 

Not only did he take out the guy on the end, but with the PRE follow-up, the guy standing next to him couldn't make himself move until he finally found his legs and ran away, and no one else DARED come near the crazy guy.

 

And this was a recent D&D convert. I was so proud.

[Bik Britelite]

Re: This is why I play Fantasy Hero

 

No, tedious and boring like so...

 

"Pushing myself backwards from the table in my chair and scooping up my bowl of sour cabbage and pork noodle soup without losing a single drop, I catch his thrusting sword blade with my chopsticks when it's glinting razor edge is less than an inch from my face; in the same fluid motion I stand and twist his sword from his grip with my chopsticks and give him a front-kick to the chin, losing not a drop of my precious dinner while calling out to the lithe, comely waitress in the red and gold cheongsom: "I want to speak to the manager at once - your establishment has a pest problem.""

 

Nice, first thing I thought was Feng Shui as well.

 

As for tedious and boring CourtFool, anytime you "enforce" a constant rule, in this case a cinematic attack, then it becomes boring. If every attack is like that then it becomes tedious to the player and slows the game down. The constant decision to make it cinematic will kill the mood of the game.

 

The occassional "I attack it with my sword" is fine and should not be discouraged, but the player doing something interactive with the scene helps to paint the picture for everyone at the session if they're listening.

 

Von went a little overboard but the example is a great read.

[CourtFool]

Re: This is why I play Fantasy Hero

 

Nice, first thing I thought was Feng Shui as well.

 

As for tedious and boring CourtFool, anytime you "enforce" a constant rule, in this case a cinematic attack, then it becomes boring. If every attack is like that then it becomes tedious to the player and slows the game down. The constant decision to make it cinematic will kill the mood of the game.

 

The occassional "I attack it with my sword" is fine and should not be discouraged, but the player doing something interactive with the scene helps to paint the picture for everyone at the session if they're listening.

 

Von went a little overboard but the example is a great read.

 

I do not understand. Do you mean to say that if I insist that my players come up with a 100 word description of their attack for every attack that it will kill the mood? I would completely agree with that. Or do you mean to say that if I insist that my players come up with something other than "I attack it with my sword" every time that it will kill the mood? I could even agree with that.

 

I would like the players to do something other than "I attack it with my sword" most of the time. Not every time. I think showing some creativity should be rewarded and I do not think it will kill the mood. A simple "thrust to the midsection" is preferable (not considering hit locations) to "I attack it with my sword" at least in my opinion. I really do not think that will kill the mood.

[Susano]

Re: This is why I play Fantasy Hero

 

I do not understand. Do you mean to say that if I insist that my players come up with a 100 word description of their attack for every attack that it will kill the mood? I would completely agree with that. Or do you mean to say that if I insist that my players come up with something other than "I attack it with my sword" every time that it will kill the mood? I could even agree with that.

 

I would like the players to do something other than "I attack it with my sword" most of the time. Not every time. I think showing some creativity should be rewarded and I do not think it will kill the mood. A simple "thrust to the midsection" is preferable (not considering hit locations) to "I attack it with my sword" at least in my opinion. I really do not think that will kill the mood.

 

I think you've got it exactly.

[teh bunneh]

Re: This is why I play Fantasy Hero

 

One of the things that annoyed me about the Exalted system is the way in which it rewards "creative" gameplay.

 

If, when you make an attack (or do anything, really), you can describe it in colorful language (like Von Dman's post above), you get bonus dice. I think you can get up to 5 extra dice.

 

It puts a ton of power into the GM's hands when it comes to rewarding creative descriptions. So the guy who's really really good at coming up with flowery descriptive prose on the fly gets huge rewards, while the guy who is normally pretty creative but doesn't have a long list of adjectives onhand gets nothing.

 

Take for instance:

 

"I use the Attack of the Beautiful White Flowering Water Lillies! Cascading stars sparkle through the air as I twish my left hand in such a way to create a whirlwind, which engulfs my target, holding him paralyzed with my power! Then my curved sword cuts the tornado in half and drives deep into my enemy's chest!"

 

vs.

 

"I know this guy is too tough for me, so instead of attacking I drop to the ground and roll under the table. As he steps forward to pursue, I stand up, using the full force of my body to push the table over on him, with me on top of it!"

 

The second one seems more creative to me, but according to the Exalted rules, the first one gets a bigger bonus than the second.

 

Of course, YMMV. Some people really get off on throwing adjectives around. But that style isn't my cuppa.

[Susano]

Re: This is why I play Fantasy Hero

 

One of the things that annoyed me about the Exalted system is the way in which it rewards "creative" gameplay.

 

If, when you make an attack (or do anything, really), you can describe it in colorful language (like Von Dman's post above), you get bonus dice. I think you can get up to 5 extra dice.

 

It puts a ton of power into the GM's hands when it comes to rewarding creative descriptions. So the guy who's really really good at coming up with flowery descriptive prose on the fly gets huge rewards, while the guy who is normally pretty creative but doesn't have a long list of adjectives onhand gets nothing.

 

Take for instance:

 

"I use the Attack of the Beautiful White Flowering Water Lillies! Cascading stars sparkle through the air as I twish my left hand in such a way to create a whirlwind, which engulfs my target, holding him paralyzed with my power! Then my curved sword cuts the tornado in half and drives deep into my enemy's chest!"

 

vs.

 

"I know this guy is too tough for me, so instead of attacking I drop to the ground and roll under the table. As he steps forward to pursue, I stand up, using the full force of my body to push the table over on him, with me on top of it!"

 

The second one seems more creative to me, but according to the Exalted rules, the first one gets a bigger bonus than the second.

 

Of course, YMMV. Some people really get off on throwing adjectives around. But that style isn't my cuppa.

 

Feng Shui tends to treat both equally.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: This is why I play Fantasy Hero

 

One of the things that annoyed me about the Exalted system is the way in which it rewards "creative" gameplay.

 

If, when you make an attack (or do anything, really), you can describe it in colorful language (like Von Dman's post above), you get bonus dice. I think you can get up to 5 extra dice.

 

It puts a ton of power into the GM's hands when it comes to rewarding creative descriptions. So the guy who's really really good at coming up with flowery descriptive prose on the fly gets huge rewards, while the guy who is normally pretty creative but doesn't have a long list of adjectives onhand gets nothing.

 

Take for instance:

 

"I use the Attack of the Beautiful White Flowering Water Lillies! Cascading stars sparkle through the air as I twish my left hand in such a way to create a whirlwind, which engulfs my target, holding him paralyzed with my power! Then my curved sword cuts the tornado in half and drives deep into my enemy's chest!"

 

vs.

 

"I know this guy is too tough for me, so instead of attacking I drop to the ground and roll under the table. As he steps forward to pursue, I stand up, using the full force of my body to push the table over on him, with me on top of it!"

 

The second one seems more creative to me, but according to the Exalted rules, the first one gets a bigger bonus than the second.

 

Of course, YMMV. Some people really get off on throwing adjectives around. But that style isn't my cuppa.

 

I understand where you're coming from, but you really need to understand the genre from which Exalted pulls its inspiration. The first description is much more in line with the tone of the Exalted setting. While the second description, while clever, isn't stylistic enough to compete with the first description.

 

As players in an Exalted campaign, it behoovs them to increase their vocabulary if they want the full dice bonus (the max bonus is +3 Dice by the way)

[TheRealVector]

Re: This is why I play Fantasy Hero

 

Hey, better descriptive prose goes for GMs to! I once had a GM tell me that "you poke him in the chest and he dies."

 

I was left a little underwhelmed. LOL

[Bik Britelite]

Re: This is why I play Fantasy Hero

 

I do not understand. Do you mean to say that if I insist that my players come up with a 100 word description of their attack for every attack that it will kill the mood? I would completely agree with that. Or do you mean to say that if I insist that my players come up with something other than "I attack it with my sword" every time that it will kill the mood? I could even agree with that.

 

I would like the players to do something other than "I attack it with my sword" most of the time. Not every time. I think showing some creativity should be rewarded and I do not think it will kill the mood. A simple "thrust to the midsection" is preferable (not considering hit locations) to "I attack it with my sword" at least in my opinion. I really do not think that will kill the mood.

 

 

 

I really am horrible at explaining myself. But in essence, yes what you said is how I feel.

 

I just think that a constant, adjective filled sentence, describing how you "poke him with a sword" can bog the game down, thus killing the mood. Games that get bogged down get boring real fast.

 

Hero is a great game, but a big combat can take a while to complete. If I had to then describe my action for every attack that I take, while spewing forth some vile trash talk, the game would seriously slow down. Adding a colorful description of the attack, with a small quip every now and then, spices the game up and should be rewarded to a small degree.

 

So in closing I believe you and I agree.

[Vondy]

Re: This is why I play Fantasy Hero

 

I think players should be encouraged to be creative with their prose (and be rewarded for adding to the game), but that it should never be a constant flow of romance novel class descriptors. A short description with one or two clauses can be just as dramatically apropos as a long one with many clauses (e.g., the purposeful purple prose I propounded). Its a question of feel and timing, and there is a learning curve involved.

 

I do agree that GMs need to be fair, but at the same time I think many people are paranoid about "Bad GMs" and treat the dice and rules as a "woobie." I see a lot of that on the boards and just because we've all run across a bad GM or two in our day (myself included) doesn't mean all GMs need a perfectly objective straight-jacket to keep them from turning into a frothing dictator. We've all run across power-gamers too, but I learned I could trust my players to respect the game, the genre, and consider the whole group in terms of play experience. So too most GMs.

 

In general, creative prose should be rewarded in two ways: 1) the principle of narrative truth, which means the player is rewarded by having a direct impact on the game-world through their prose (including what amounts to "cosmetic transformations" to the scene), and 2) some sort of consistently applied mechanical bonus, which need not strictly be prose related. Some players have creative ideas and good timing despite a lack of eloquence. I do think, however, that mechanical bonuses should be standardized (a list can be jotted down in advance.

 

In other words, the player who is great at it gets the specified bonuses, and the player who tried and doesn't have the knack gets the same bonus. This leaves everyone on the same playing field mechanically. On the other hand, it still gives players that excel at this a bit of juice in terms of narration.

 

In terms of checks and balances these can come in the form of a more commie-style ( ) approach to gaming. The principle of narrative truth can exist with conditions for a GM Veto (for narration that becomes contradictory or disruptive (more than a "cosmetic transform"), and by group veto in terms of the GMs sense of "fair play." If there is a player consensus that the GM is being unfair to one particular player, or is abusing his veto, then some sort of accord will have to be reached. Also, if the group collectively cracks up or gives a player a standing ovation for their effort it should be clear the bonus is in order.

 

As with all things in the game - maturity and communication is the key.

[TheRealVector]

Re: This is why I play Fantasy Hero

 

I think players should be encouraged to be creative with their prose (and be rewarded for adding to the game), but that it should never be a constant flow of romance novel class descriptors. A short description with one or two clauses can be just as dramatically apropos as a long one with many clauses (e.g., the purposeful purple prose I propounded). Its a question of feel and timing, and there is a learning curve involved.

 

I do agree that GMs need to be fair, but at the same time I think many people are paranoid about "Bad GMs" and treat the dice and rules as a "woobie." I see a lot of that on the boards and just because we've all run across a bad GM or two in our day (myself included) doesn't mean all GMs need a perfectly objective straight-jacket to keep them from turning into a frothing dictator. We've all run across power-gamers too, but I learned I could trust my players to respect the game, the genre, and consider the whole group in terms of play experience. So too most GMs.

 

In general, creative prose should be rewarded in two ways: 1) the principle of narrative truth, which means the player is rewarded by having a direct impact on the game-world through their prose (including what amounts to "cosmetic transformations" to the scene), and 2) some sort of consistently applied mechanical bonus, which need not strictly be prose related. Some players have creative ideas and good timing despite a lack of eloquence. I do think, however, that mechanical bonuses should be standardized (a list can be jotted down in advance.

 

In other words, the player who is great at it gets the specified bonuses, and the player who tried and doesn't have the knack gets the same bonus. This leaves everyone on the same playing field mechanically. On the other hand, it still gives players that excel at this a bit of juice in terms of narration.

 

In terms of checks and balances these can come in the form of a more commie-style ( ) approach to gaming. The principle of narrative truth can exist with conditions for a GM Veto (for narration that becomes contradictory or disruptive (more than a "cosmetic transform"), and by group veto in terms of the GMs sense of "fair play." If there is a player consensus that the GM is being unfair to one particular player, or is abusing his veto, then some sort of accord will have to be reached. Also, if the group collectively cracks up or gives a player a standing ovation for their effort it should be clear the bonus is in order.

 

As with all things in the game - maturity and communication is the key.

 

My God man! Don't you realize that our dice are the only thing that stands between us and the tyranny of the GM?

 

 

Yeah, I'm joking...a bit.

[teh bunneh]

Re: This is why I play Fantasy Hero

 

I understand where you're coming from' date=' but you really need to understand the genre from which Exalted pulls its inspiration. The first description is much more in line with the [b']tone[/b] of the Exalted setting. While the second description, while clever, isn't stylistic enough to compete with the first description.

 

I think you're probably right. But the genre itself (or rather, the system's slavish devotion to the authors' concept of the genre) don't appeal much to me. And I say that as a person who is pretty good with words!

 

As players in an Exalted campaign, it behoovs them to increase their vocabulary if they want the full dice bonus (the max bonus is +3 Dice by the way)

 

Another thing I noticed in the (aborted) Exalted game I played in... the guy who was really into the genre (and therefore consistantly got the most bonuses) eventually ran out of adjectives, and began saying the same thing over and over.

 

"Flames cascading off the edge of my sword, I shout a great "KIIII!" as I flip through the air, my hair whipping around like a whirlwind, and then I strike him with the Seven Blows of Wondrous Thunder!" is just as bad as (or worse than) "I attack him with my sword" ...if you've heard it for the fifth time that night. I think my enjoyment of that game diminished rapidly when I figured out that there are only so many ways to say, "I attack with my sword" no matter how many flowery adjectives you squeeze in there.

[CourtFool]

Re: This is why I play Fantasy Hero

 

I think my enjoyment of that game diminished rapidly when I figured out that there are only so many ways to say' date=' "I attack with my sword" no matter how many flowery adjectives you squeeze in there. [/quote']

 

I attack with my sword

I attack with my sword

I attack with my sword

I attack with my sword

I attack with my sword

 

You are right! Curse my metal vocabulary; I wasn't vast enough!