Campaign Tone -- explaining “Bronze Age”

[bigdamnhero]

This isn't meant to be yet another rant about the excesses of the Iron Age. But after one of my players said "I thought Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns were Bronze Age?" the other night, some problems we've been having with campaign tone suddenly made more sense. So I've tried to put together some thoughts on what Bronze Age means, at least to me. I welcome your comments.

 

Campaign Tone -- What does “Bronze Age” mean anyway?

 

This campaign was written to be mainly Bronze Age in tone. As promised, I’ve tried to put together some more thoughts on what I mean by that. To me, the Bronze Age represents a balance between the camp & absurdity of the Silver Age, and the grimness & excessive violence of the Iron Age.

 

The Silver Age was full of evil clones & alternate versions of characters from other Dimensions (“No, that’s the Superman from Earth 4…”), alien imps who play super-powered pranks on the heroes, and the like. Villains like the Penguin actually use armies of penguins, and imprison captured heroes in Giant Pinball Machine death-traps. Kid sidekicks and/or super-powered pets are obligatory. People rarely ever die. Morality is (almost) completely B&W, and thanks to the Comics Code characters can’t have sex, drink, or do anything else controversial. Think of the `60s Batman TV show, or the Chris Reeves Superman movies. Foxbat thinks he’s living in a Silver Age comic.

 

At the other extreme, the Iron Age attempts to be much more “realistic” mostly by amping up the violence and deleting any sense of morality. OK, that’s probably too harsh; there have been some excellent Iron Age comics. But if the Silver Age was too B&W, most Iron Age tends to be too Grey for my taste, at least as a sustained diet. The line between hero and villains is thin, subjective, and changes from issue to issue. “Heroes” routinely manipulate, abuse, and even kill people because the ends justify the means. Government is (almost) always corrupt and manipulative, tho to be fair usually no more so than the “heroes.” Most problems can be solved by getting bigger guns. All supporting characters are required to be addicted to drugs/alcohol/porn, and/or to have been abused as children; so are most heroes, for that matter. If you can’t kill off a supporting NPC, have them get kidnapped and raped, or mutated into a flesh-eating monster. All attacks are killing attacks, and it’s not a decent fight until someone’s brain matter gets splattered on the wall. Dark Knight Returns, Watchmen, and Straczynski’s Supreme Power are examples of Iron Age at its best; Dark Knight Strikes Again and Marvel’s current Civil War saga are Iron Age at its worst IMHO.

 

I see the Bronze Age as a happy medium between those two extremes. Characters are three-dimensional people with human frailties & weaknesses, but heroes generally act like heroes, or at least try to. People sometimes die, whether innocents (Gwen Stacy), villains (Green Goblin) or even heroes (Jean Grey/Phoenix), but it’s a Big Deal when it happens and they (almost) never die at the heroes’ hands. The Comics Code is gone, so sex, drugs, and other “mature” issues can be portrayed; morality isn’t always B&W; government isn’t always just and well-intentioned; and good doesn’t always triumph over evil. But those elements are used primarily as “seasoning” and tend to be the exception rather than the rule. Similarly, you have a few characters who are a little more Iron Age in outlook (Punisher, Wolverine), but they’re there primarily for contrast. The Death of Gwen Stacy arc in Spider-Man, the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix saga in X-Men, and the Wolfman/Perez run on New Teen Titans are standout examples. The Death of Jean deWolff storyline in Spider-Man is also an excellent example of a late-Bronze Age story that plays with darker elements and greyer morality. I would say most of the better superhero movies in recent years have a primarily Bronzish feel to them, including the Spider-Man movies, the first two X-Men movies (the third went seriously Iron Age IMO), and arguably Superman Returns. I’d even say Batman Begins is borderline Bronze-Iron, in that Batman always strives to be a hero in spite of the darkness around him.

 

Anyway, that’s my take on it; see also the “Code vs. Killing” guidelines I sent around awhile back (posted in the Files section of the NewChamps group). Based on the initial conversations we had and your answers to that Questionnaire I asked you all to fill out before we started the campaign, I concluded that Bronze Age best described the type of game you all wanted to play. If everyone doesn’t agree, please let’s talk about it; I’m happy to adjust the tone if it’ll make for a better game. Similarly, I’m fine with having one or more “contrast” characters who might be a little more Iron (or more Silver) in outlook; as far as I’m concerned, contrast makes for good roleplaying. But at the same time, the contrast can’t be so extreme that your characters can’t work together as part of a team.

 

Thanks, and let me know what you think.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Campaign Tone -- explaining “Bronze Age”

 

Hey, it looks very good to me. On a personal note, Bronze Age is probably my favorite of all Superhero "Ages" to play in, with Golden Age following at some distance. Though my vision of the GA tends to be a little harsher and darker than what you get in the Champs book.

[The Main Man]

Re: Campaign Tone -- explaining “Bronze Age”

 

I like that synopsis.

It makes the Bronze Age seem more like the most mature form of the ages, although the recently coined "Diamond Age (which is strangely appropriate to the comics distribution monopoly, but that's for a different thread)" seems to be kind of like a similar part of the comic book style flowchart.

[Kevin Schultz]

Re: Campaign Tone -- explaining “Bronze Age”

 

Hm... I would define the "Diamond Age", or the "Steel Age" as being more sci-fi in tone: the focus is more on the relationship between society and the individual in a speculative fiction sort of way. Ie, What would society be like if superpowers really DID exist?

[gojira]

Re: Campaign Tone -- explaining “Bronze Age”

 

I'd through some dates, comic events and artists in there. I was kinda confused about these terms myself, so I sympathize with your players.

 

Golden Age is comics from 1938 to 1959 or so. Bloodless, black and white morality, but also kinda brutal in a casual sorta way.

 

Silver Age starts (very) roughly in 1960, and introduces second generation characters. A new Flash, Green Lantern, the Atom and Hawkman appeared or were ret-conned. The JLA is introduced. The Silver Age runs through the early 1970's.

 

Bronze Age starts around 1973ish when the Comic Code Authority revises it's rules, the "all new all different X-Men" is introduced, and Gwen Stacy in Spiderman dies. The new X-Men get really popular, and new writers and new blood in the comic industry itself. More mature themes are introduced, such as Speedy's drug problem. Social themes are introduced, like race relations. Roughly 1973 to 1986.

 

Iron Age: Liefeld, foil covers, crappy plotting, over the top violence, too many crossovers, too many Wolverine comic lines. I blame Regan. 'Nough said.

[OddHat]

Re: Campaign Tone -- explaining “Bronze Age”

 

I go back and forth on this.

 

As to your list, I'd actually class Superman 1 & 2 as great examples of Bronze Age Superheroism. The over the top lunacy of the Silver Age is gone, the stakes are high, and the villain's plans cost many lives and have both wealth and power as goals. The Hero tries to make choices for personal happiness over his responsibility to the world and the world pays the price, and while he is undeniably a good man he's not above a little selfishness or petty revenge. Superman II in particular is a great Bronze Age story. I'd also say the Justice League cartoons were excellent examples of Bronze Age storytelling.

 

I'd say that the difference between Bronze and Diamond/Steel is the target audience and the accompanying changes in setting and style. Bronze Age stories were still aimed primarily at junior high and high school kids; Diamond Age stories are aimed at high school and college kids, with enough chewiness in the best of them to appeal to the nostalgic oldsters at the top demographic end of the market. Bronze Age Batman still has an unspoken deal with the universe that, most of the time, no one is really going to get seriously hurt or killed. When someone does die, it's a shock, and a major event. Diamond/Steel Ager Batman knows that death is a real risk, and that he has no special deal with the world, but still tries to adhere to a moral code anyway, and acts in the knowledge that as dark as Gotham may be, most of the people of the city will try and are trying to do the right thing. Batman Begins is, from my point of view, a Steel Age superhero story.

[assault]

Re: Campaign Tone -- explaining “Bronze Age”

 

Silver Age starts (very) roughly in 1960, and introduces second generation characters. A new Flash, Green Lantern, the Atom and Hawkman appeared or were ret-conned. The JLA is introduced. The Silver Age runs through the early 1970's.

 

Bronze Age starts around 1973ish when the Comic Code Authority revises it's rules, the "all new all different X-Men" is introduced, and Gwen Stacy in Spiderman dies.

 

While starting dates aren't that important, I think it would useful to note that the Silver Age started in the late 50s. That's when a lot of the really odd Silver Age stuff was introduced. In many respects the 60s were actually a lot straighter, except when the camp was intentional.

 

I would also push back the Bronze Age start to 1971, but who cares.

 

Having said all of this: if your players aren't really familiar with the "Ages" terminology, I'm not entirely sure that it would be all that useful trying to explain a campaign's feel according to them. It might be better to go back to something like the 4th Edition Hero System's campaign specification sheets. And maybe some specific examples of the source material, to get everybody on the same page.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Campaign Tone -- explaining “Bronze Age”

 

While starting dates aren't that important, I think it would useful to note that the Silver Age started in the late 50s. That's when a lot of the really odd Silver Age stuff was introduced. In many respects the 60s were actually a lot straighter, except when the camp was intentional.

 

I would also push back the Bronze Age start to 1971, but who cares.

 

Having said all of this: if your players aren't really familiar with the "Ages" terminology, I'm not entirely sure that it would be all that useful trying to explain a campaign's feel according to them. It might be better to go back to something like the 4th Edition Hero System's campaign specification sheets. And maybe some specific examples of the source material, to get everybody on the same page.

 

I don't think it's an issue of the terminology. The player in question mostly just had the wrong idea of which years the Bronze Age mostly represented, which kinds of story lines.

 

Personally I don't read comics anymore, when the campaign started I had to go look up what Bronze Age was, the tropes and such. I hope I'm doing a decent job of conveying the correct tone.

 

I believe, once the player reads the explenation he will be able to play to the correct tone - there was simply a miscommunication of what tropes were more common.

 

That, and the character actually fits well as tipping towards the Iron Age in style, without actually going there. I see, and I don't know if this is where the player is starting to go, them spending their time trying to cope with the sudden overwhelming power they've been given (they are the teams brick), a mild distrust of authority and a Reputation to deal with. They recognize the good within their intentions, but have difficulty translating that into the proper actions and words sometimes. But that's what I see - I don't know the players personal vision.

[assault]

Re: Campaign Tone -- explaining “Bronze Age”

 

Just for kicks, here is a trivial definition of the difference between Silver Age and Bronze Age.

 

In the Silver Age, Superman was edited by Mort Weisinger.

 

In the Bronze Age, Superman was edited by Julius Schwartz.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Campaign Tone -- explaining “Bronze Age”

 

I'd through some dates' date=' comic events and artists in there. [/quote']

Good point. But fortunately, another one of my players (ghost-angel) already pointed the player in question to the Wikipedia entries for the various comics eras, so I didn't feel the need to restate that. Also, since the player hasn't actually read many (any?) comics from that era, referencing specific issues/writers wouldn't help him much.

 

As to your list' date=' I'd actually class Superman 1 & 2 as great examples of Bronze Age Superheroism. [/quote']

I see your point, particularly for the second movie where Clark is humanized a bit more. Tho the ends of both movies smack of Silver Age "I can do anything the writers want me to!" power-inflation to me. Maybe it's because I was raised mostly on Marvel, so even Bronze Age DC tends to have a Silver Age feel to it.

 

I'd say that the difference between Bronze and Diamond/Steel is the target audience and the accompanying changes in setting and style.

Batman Begins is, from my point of view, a Steel Age superhero story.

Agreed. In fact, I started writing a paragraph on the Steel/Diamond Age. But since that era is still relatively undefined, I didn't want to confuse the matter any further.

 

I believe' date=' once the player reads the explenation he will be able to play to the correct tone - there was simply a miscommunication of what tropes were more common. [/quote']

I think so too. Like I said, I have no problem with a contrast character. I just get a little frustrated when someone takes CvK: Total, and then gets upset when he can't kill people.

[OddHat]

Re: Campaign Tone -- explaining “Bronze Age”

 

I think so too. Like I said, I have no problem with a contrast character. I just get a little frustrated when someone takes CvK: Total, and then gets upset when he can't kill people.

 

That's less a question of ages than a player who wasn't clear on what the disad means.

 

On a more serious note, Ken Hite does a great little section in the new Wild Talents book on defining the tone of a given Superhero setting. Well worth reading and using. From my own point of view, there were occasionally dark, serious, or thoughtful stories even in the high Silver Age, and intentionally goofy stories in the Iron Age have never been rare. The distinctions are still useful ("This is a High Silver Age kind of world where super-criminals never actually hurt anyone";"This is a Rusty Iron kind of world where the president keeps a brainwashed superhero in his closet as a sex slave"), but breaking down exactly what elements you are and aren't using is easier for the players.

[transmetahuman]

Re: Campaign Tone -- explaining “Bronze Age”

 

I had a problem with your definitions, in that they basically came down to "everything that sucked was either silver or iron; everything that was good was bronze". It's probably fine for your purposes - listing elements that you don't want to see in your games - but as a definition, well, I'd like to see an example or two of a characteristic flaw of the bronze age.

 

Some have been suggested on the boards - for instance, "stories and characters were apparently required to be Socially Relevant, in annoyingly fashionable ways". I can see why you don't want to bring the flaws of the bronze age into your game, of course, but otherwise you're not defining the Bronze Age so much as you're listing Stuff You Don't Like.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Campaign Tone -- explaining “Bronze Age”

 

I had a problem with your definitions, in that they basically came down to "everything that sucked was either silver or iron; everything that was good was bronze". It's probably fine for your purposes - listing elements that you don't want to see in your games - but as a definition, well, I'd like to see an example or two of a characteristic flaw of the bronze age.

 

Some have been suggested on the boards - for instance, "stories and characters were apparently required to be Socially Relevant, in annoyingly fashionable ways". I can see why you don't want to bring the flaws of the bronze age into your game, of course, but otherwise you're not defining the Bronze Age so much as you're listing Stuff You Don't Like.

Fair point. But you're right that the purpose was to explain what elements do/don't fit the campaign tone as I see it. As a treatise on comic book history, I'll admit it's pretty one-sided.

[starblaze]

Re: Campaign Tone -- explaining “Bronze Age”

 

I have always felt that the Green Lantern/Green Arrow series from the seventies was a good example of Bronze age writing.

[Mad_Ernie]

Re: Campaign Tone -- explaining “Bronze Age”

 

I have always felt that the Green Lantern/Green Arrow series from the seventies was a good example of Bronze age writing.

 

I agree. I would consider the first "drug" stories (including the Harry Osborn drug stories in Spiderman) to be the beginning of the bronze age, so say around 1971 or 1972.

 

I think your examples of the Phoenix arc in X-Men and the New Teen Titans by Wolfman & Perez really conclude the bronze age for me (or perhaps begin the next one).

 

When I think of the bronze age, we are talking mainly 1970s-ish comic books and characters. So, what does that include besides the examples above?

 

- Monsters - with comics code relaxed, many companies began doing a lot of horror comics and inserting horror theme into super-hero comic books

- Captain America: the Secret Empire - an all-time classic from Steve Englehart and Sal Buscema. This series really sucked me as a comic book geek back in the early-to-mid 70's.

- Social issues - others have been metioned (drugs, dirty politics) but themes like racial equality and women's lib also began appearing more in the comics

 

Those are just some examples. Keep looking and you'll find more.

 

-ME:cool:

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Campaign Tone -- explaining “Bronze Age”

 

I think your examples of the Phoenix arc in X-Men and the New Teen Titans by Wolfman & Perez really conclude the bronze age for me (or perhaps begin the next one).

Both those feel Bronzey to me: some dark edges, sure, but not wallowing in the darkness. YMMV of course. I tend to think of ~1985 as the "tipping point" -- you had Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns, the Death of Jean deWollf arc in Spider-Man, and DC finishing Crisis on Infinite Earths all within a relatively short time span.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Campaign Tone -- explaining “Bronze Age”

 

Bronze Age, a harder Edge than Silver or Gold, but not as hard edged as Iron or Steel.

[Basil]

Re: Campaign Tone -- explaining “Bronze Age”

 

"Steel Age"? What happened to "iron mixed with clay"?

 

:eg:

[input.jack]

Re: Campaign Tone -- explaining “Bronze Age”

 

Excellent definition, especially for a game set-up, BDH.

 

I hadnt thought of the Bronze Age as having ended in 1986, but I suppose it did. I kept reading comics until around 1992, so to me thats when the light faded. "Real" comics ended for me about when Image Comics began

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Campaign Tone -- explaining “Bronze Age”

 

This morning on the bus the following much-shorter way to explain it ocurred to me. Again, this is a totally subjective representation of what I like/dislike in the various ages:

 

Silver Age: It's fun to be a hero, because bad things hardly ever happen to good people. Ignore the darkness.

 

Bronze Age: It's sometimes hard to be a hero, because bad things sometimes happen even to good people. But true heroes rise above the darkness.

 

Iron Age: It's too hard to be a hero, because bad things always happen to good people. Embrace the darkness.

[OddHat]

Re: Campaign Tone -- explaining “Bronze Age”

 

Kind of dark, and misses out on the possibilities of Top Ten, Planetary, Astro City, Tom Strong, or other campaigns that don't fit neatly into a single age.

 

I like a three axis system (modified by Ken Hite's excellent system in Wild Talents): Attitude, Familiarity and Strangeness.

 

Attitude runs from 1 "Pure Optimism" to 5 "Pure Pessimism".

 

In a 1 world, almost nothing really negative ever happens, and if it does then there are few lasting consequences. In a 5 world, nothing positive can ever happen, and anything that looks positive is just a set up for more misery to come.

 

Familiarity runs from 1 "World Outside the Window" to 5 "Unrecognizable".

 

In a 1 world, there's no sign at all of the paranormal, and the vast majority of people live in blissful ignorance of anything stranger than what shows up on the daily news. In a 5 world, society looks nothing like that of the real world, having been completely changed by the presence of the paranormal.

 

Strangeness runs from 1 "Real Physics" to 5 "What Physics".

 

In a 1 world, there are no superpowers beyond the achievements of real athletes and real technology. In a 5 world, absolutely anything is possible.

 

So, the Superfriends TV World was a 1:4:4 Setting. Almost no one ever gets seriously hurt, and if something bad happens then it's put right by the end of the adventure: the world looks a lot like ours, but the laws and government seem to be completely adapted to allowing most crime fighting and disaster relief to be performed by masked volunteers, and things like endless alien races and time travel cause no surprise: Physical laws are whatever sounds good to the writers at the time, and we're generally one step short of loony toons style running off a cliff and not falling until you notice.

 

The Joss Wheedon Buffyverse was a 3:2:2 or 4:3:3 depending on how you look at it, though I'd go with the 3:2:2. Bad things can and do happen to good people, and there's no guarantee of success, but then the universe isn't generally out to get you either (though your specific enemies might be):The public at large is ignorant of the paranormal, and the world mostly looks like ours, but there's a rich paranormal underground, and many governmental and non governmental organizations are aware of weirdness: Most of the time physical laws seem to act like they do in the real world, but anything touched by magic gains a sometimes huge exemption. However, even magic has risks and limits.

 

Rick Veitch's Maximortal/Bratpack world or Millar's Authority are 5/4/4 settings. The universe hates you, and everyone you meet is either a sadistic psychopath or soon to be a victim, often both: The world is stuffed to the gills with widely know and acknowledged strangeness, governments and institutions are parodies: Physics are again whatever sounds good to the writer at the time, just short of pure loony toon physics.

 

I'd rate most Silver Age worlds as 1.5:3.5:4, Bronze age as 2:3:3.5, Iron Age as 3.5:3:3, but there's plenty of variation even in a single title. Alan Moore's Swamp Thing was about 3:2.5:3.5, Millar's Ultimates are about 3.5:3:3.

 

For a much better and more in depth version of a system like this, I'd recommend Ken Hite's section in Wild Talents.

[input.jack]

Re: Campaign Tone -- explaining “Bronze Age”

 

For much greater depth for a system like that, ID recommend actually expanding the point scale out to 10 points per axis, instead of just 5 points. When youre using ".5's" like that, it gets difficult to read.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Campaign Tone -- explaining “Bronze Age”

 

I think the recent Spider-Man movies are pretty good Bronze Age examples for tone.

 

1 ) Hero faces difficulties and conflicts, rises above to do the right thing

 

2 ) Personal issues with no easy solutions come into play but aren't crippling - angst used mostly as a vehicle for 1), not as an end in itself.

 

3 ) Villains less two-dimensionally evil, may have shades of grey, tragic origins to their villainy. If they die it is as a result of their own actions, not due to the hero.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Campaign Tone -- explaining “Bronze Age”

 

Kind of dark' date=' and misses out on the possibilities of Top Ten, Planetary, Astro City, Tom Strong, or other campaigns that don't fit neatly into a single age.[/quote']

I would consider those comics to be Steel Age or whatever we're calling post-Iron. Didn't mention them only because I didn't think my players would be familiar enough with Steel Age to discuss it. But yeah, I agree that those books in many ways meld the best aspects of all the previous ages.

 

I like a three axis system (modified by Ken Hite's excellent system in Wild Talents): Attitude' date=' Familiarity and Strangeness. [/quote']

I like the idea. (And you've definitely sold me on checking out Wild Talents.) I was really only looking at the optimism- pessimism scale, because it's the one that most chaps me personally. YMMV and similar acronyms.

 

But the Familiarity and Strangeness axis seem to be awfully similar, almost redundant? I note most of your examples get nearly-identical ratings on those two axis. I'd almost like to see a rating for how the heroes respond to the lightness-darkness of their world.

 

I would also be interested to see someone who likes Silver or Iron Age games write up a counterpoint of the "good" elements of those sub-genres. Any takers ?

[OddHat]

Re: Campaign Tone -- explaining “Bronze Age”

 

But the Familiarity and Strangeness axis seem to be awfully similar, almost redundant? I note most of your examples get nearly-identical ratings on those two axis. I'd almost like to see a rating for how the heroes respond to the lightness-darkness of their world.

 

Familiarity relates to how ordinary people live and view the world. Strangeness refers to the actual physics of the world. The Bewitched world is very familiar, but magic can do pretty much anything the writers feel like at the moment, giving it a Familiarity orf 1 or 2 but a Strangeness of 4.

 

I would also be interested to see someone who likes Silver or Iron Age games write up a counterpoint of the "good" elements of those sub-genres. Any takers ?

 

I like both. I'll think about it.