Slow recharge rate?

[bigdamnhero]

Seems like there oughtta be a simple way to model this, but for some reason I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around it. Figured I'd call for backup.

 

Say a player wants to have an attack (or any power, really) that can be fired as a normal 1/2 phase action, but then takes longer than normal to recharge or reload. Maybe a superhero's Energy Blast takes a Full Phase to recharge. Or it's some large crew-served weapon that takes a Turn to reload.

 

Now that's not Extra Time per se, because the character can fire it once normally; the Extra Time only applies to subsequent shots. I suppose you could model it with a small dedicated END Reserve and a slow REC, but that seems more trouble than it's worth. Trigger might be another possibility, but that too seems cludgey to me.

 

I'm leaning towards using Extra Time and reducing the value of the Lim by say two steps? Of just halving it outright? Does that seem too much, not enough, or just right to the collective you? Thanks.

[Vanguard]

Re: Slow recharge rate?

 

You could use Extra Time and just talk to your GM about doing it like you suggested.

 

Alternately, you could use Custom Limitations, use Extra Time as the model and then discuss with your GM how much of a limitation each increment is worth.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Slow recharge rate?

 

Extra Time with Delayed Effect. What you describe is what Delayed Effect is for.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Slow recharge rate?

 

What about 1 charge with multiple clips with increased reloading time?

 

30 Crew Served WaveMotionGun: Energy Blast 18d6 (90 Active Points); OAF (-1), 64 clips of 1 Charge (Increased Reloading Time; 1 Turn; -3/4), Crew-Served (2 people; -1/4) - END=[1]

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Slow recharge rate?

 

Or what about Delayed Effect, with Extra Time, which does exactly what bigdamnhero is asking for?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Slow recharge rate?

 

Or what about Delayed Effect' date=' with Extra Time, which does exactly what bigdamnhero is asking for?[/quote']

 

edit...

He specifically asked for no delay on the 1st shot. Not prepare beforehand and have 1 shot ready to fire, which is how

Delayed Effect works. Slightly different mechanic.

 

Delayed Effect

 

(Hero System Fifth Edition Rule Book, page 164; Revised, page 255)

 

This Advantage allows a character to go through any length preparations needed to turn on a Power, then keep that Power "ready" before using it.

 

Extra Time

 

(Hero System Fifth Edition Rule Book, page 186-187; Revised, page 290-291)

 

A Power with this Limitation takes longer than usual to activate and/or use.

 

and ends up being more expensive and still costs END:

 

37 Crew Served WaveMotionGun: Energy Blast 18d6, Delayed Effect (+1/4) (112 Active Points); OAF (-1), Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Only to Activate, -3/4), Crew-Served (2 people; -1/4) - END=11

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Slow recharge rate?

 

So he does his first preparation beforehand? A Delayed Effect slot lasts through being Knocked Out, so it should easily last through going to sleep.

 

bigdamnhero, let me ask you directly: would Delayed Effect plus Extra Time work for you?

[SuperGuy]

Re: Slow recharge rate?

 

Depending on the special effect, I think extra time is what you're looking for. The book goes on about powers that require an attack roll and an attack can't be made until the specified time has passed. I would use this limitation for a weapon that needs to power up. The first shot will be immediate (assuming you turned the gun on this morning), but the second shot will be limited by the extra time you bought.

 

I would do the crew served differently though. 1 recoverable charge. The book says you can't really recover charges in combat (unless you have a nice GM) but if you or the team is willing to "leave" combat, like spending 1 Turn to access an OIF (like removing someone's armor), then that seems reasonable to me if you state that being the terms of your recovery. You can always borrow the healing mod, Decreased re-use duration and haggle over the advantage to be applied. I'd say combat is over usually after 1 Turn so using 1 minute as the base time, buy it down to +1/4 for a Turn.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Slow recharge rate?

 

I might simply use a custom limitation (based as suggested on extra time).

 

12D6 EB, not if fired within the past 6 seconds

 

 

Doc

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Slow recharge rate?

 

You could use Extra Time and just talk to your GM about doing it like you suggested.

But...I am the GM!

 

But yeah, that's basically what I'm looking at. What I'm trying to decide is: how much should the value of the Lim be reduced because you get the first shot for free? Having slept on the matter, I'm leaning towards just halving the value of the Extra Time Lim. Does that seem excessive to anyone?

 

bigdamnhero' date=' let me ask you directly: would Delayed Effect plus Extra Time work for you?[/quote']

That's not a bad idea either. By the book (5ER p255) Delayed Effect is only supposed to be used when you're somehow limited in the number of powers you can have active at one time. I wouldn't mind ignoring that provision, but Delayed Effect also raises the Active Point cost, which has other implications (Frameworks, Dispel/Suppress, etc). I'd rather not force the player to take an Advantage when what he's really looking for is a Limitation, just one that's less-limiting than normal.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Slow recharge rate?

 

But...I am the GM!

 

But yeah, that's basically what I'm looking at. What I'm trying to decide is: how much should the value of the Lim be reduced because you get the first shot for free? Having slept on the matter, I'm leaning towards just halving the value of the Extra Time Lim. Does that seem excessive to anyone?

 

He'd get half the value of Extra Time for "only to activate", meaning he'd spend the time once then be able to use the power as desired.

 

Check out Jammed and Burnout in Activation. A Burnout power gets the first shot free. A Jammed power can burn out on the first shot. Maybe it would be reasonable to apply the same "chart difference" to Extra Time. For example, if Burnout is 1 step down the chart and Jammed is 3 steps down (I can't remember the actual differences), then "delayed effect; first shot free" would be 2 steps up the chart.

[SuperGuy]

Re: Slow recharge rate?

 

He'd get half the value of Extra Time for "only to activate"' date=' meaning he'd spend the time once then be able to use the power as desired.[/quote']

 

Only to activate is when you turn the power on and it stays on. That's kind of the opposite of what he wanted to do.

 

Just use plain ol' Extra Time, it's designed specifically to limit the time between uses, not limit the time to take your first shot. The problem I think you're having is the word activation. It doesn't mean attack. If it's a powered gun, you turn it on (activate). You then you have to wait the specified time to shoot it (attack). If you never turn on your gun before combat breaks out, then it never had a built up charge. Once the gun is fired the charge has to regenerate. The book says once you activate it you can go about your normal business unless you take the disad.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Slow recharge rate?

 

What about 1 charge with multiple clips with increased reloading time?

Sorry H-M; I somehow missed your post first time around. This would definitely be the way to do it with Charges. Harder with Costs END, tho.

 

Just use plain ol' Extra Time' date=' it's designed specifically to limit the time between uses, not limit the time to take your first shot. The problem I think you're having is the word activation. It doesn't mean attack. If it's a powered gun, you turn it on (activate). You then you have to wait the specified time to shoot it (attack). If you never turn on your gun before combat breaks out, then it never had a built up charge. Once the gun is fired the charge has to regenerate. The book says once you activate it you can go about your normal business unless you take the disad.[/quote']

Not sure what part of The Book you're referencing; page please? What you're describing sounds more like Extra Time (only to activate, not to use thereafter), with the Delayed Effect or Trigger Advantages applied. If you can go through the Extra Time and other prep beforehand and then hold the "active" power until whenever you're ready to attack, why would there be a need for Delayed Effect or Trigger as Advantages?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Slow recharge rate?

 

I would go with HMs first notion, which is "Extra Reload Time" to simulate that for whatever reason the weapon is "reloading." Delayed Effect, eh. Doesn't strike me as quite the same way/effect, but definitely put it on the back. This sounds in part like the Caster from Outlaw Star, although that weapon is more Extra Time (for the coils to spin, and extra ... segment, or firing it is a full phase action, as is reloading it).

 

Sorry, minor ramble.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Slow recharge rate?

 

I would go with HMs first notion' date=' which is "Extra Reload Time" to simulate that for whatever reason the weapon is "reloading." Delayed Effect, eh. Doesn't strike me as quite the same way/effect, but definitely put it on the back. This sounds in part like the Caster from [i']Outlaw Star[/i], although that weapon is more Extra Time (for the coils to spin, and extra ... segment, or firing it is a full phase action, as is reloading it).

 

I don't get why not Extra Time and Delayed Effect. Extra Time to "charge" up the attack, and Delayed Effect to hold it ready until you're ready to shoot.

 

Delayed Effect is made to hold a Power in reserve until you're ready to use it, and Extra Time is made to require a Power to take extra time to start up. So why not?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Slow recharge rate?

 

That's not a bad idea either. By the book (5ER p255) Delayed Effect is only supposed to be used when you're somehow limited in the number of powers you can have active at one time. I wouldn't mind ignoring that provision' date=' but Delayed Effect also raises the Active Point cost, which has other implications (Frameworks, Dispel/Suppress, etc). I'd rather not force the player to take an Advantage when what he's really looking for is a Limitation, just one that's less-limiting than normal.[/quote']

 

Per Extra Time, you activate the Power and it goes off. You are looking for an Advantage, the ability to activate the Power and then hold it until you're ready to use it. That's the definition of Delayed Effect.

 

Fer cryin' out loud, people. I feel like someone's asking "Yeah, I want to build a Power that is part of a device of some kind, and it can be taken away and potentially used against the owner..." and having people suggest a combination of Restrainable and Usable By Others.

[Silbeg]

Re: Slow recharge rate?

 

Perhaps an insane way (since it would cost more) would be to build it with a trigger, that takes a good while to restart? At least that way, he could pay the END cost ahead of time... just that extra shots would be much slower.

 

Then, add a lim to say can only use triggered?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Slow recharge rate?

 

Here's a side by side comparison of the 3 major ways this could be done. Charges are only added to the 2nd and 3rd options to show equal utility in the builds.

 

34 Extra Time To Recharge (Option 1): Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points); 16 clips of 1 Charge (-3/4) [Notes: Changing Clips normally takes 1 Phase.] - END=[1]

 

43 Extra Time To Recharge (Option 2): Energy Blast 12d6, 16 Charges (+0), Delayed Effect (+1/4) (75 Active Points); Extra Time (Extra Phase, -3/4) - END=[16]

 

40 Extra Time To Recharge (Option 3): Energy Blast 12d6, 16 Charges (+0) (60 Active Points); Extra Time (Extra Phase, Only to Activate, Replace "Only to Activate" with "Does Not Affect 1st Shot"; -1/2) - END=[16]

 

If the player does not want to use charges I see the 3rd option as the easiest to impliment since it is still a 60 active point power like the 1st option.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Slow recharge rate?

 

Per Extra Time' date=' you activate the Power and it goes off. You [i']are[/i] looking for an Advantage, the ability to activate the Power and then hold it until you're ready to use it.

Not quite. What I'm looking for -- or rather, what the player is -- the ability to fire one shot, but then not be able to fire a second shot for a set period of time. If the time period is more than a Turn or two, that effectively turns it into a one-to-two shot weapon for most Hero combats. That restricts the power, it doesn't enhance it. But using DE penalizes the player in other ways by raising the Active Cost of the power, regardless of what the final point cost turns out to be. Which is fine if that's what you want to do. But it's not the only way to do it.

 

BTW, I missed this the first time through the FAQ, but it addresses a similar concept:

Question: I’d like to build a weapon for my character that has a “cool-down” period between uses. How can I represent this?

 

Answer: With Extra Time, more specifically defined: Extra Time (must have been at least [X interval of time] since last use). The value depends upon the shortest possible interval between uses, and since it won’t affect the first use in most encounters, the GM will probably want to reduce the value slightly.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Slow recharge rate?

 

I don't get why not Extra Time and Delayed Effect. Extra Time to "charge" up the attack, and Delayed Effect to hold it ready until you're ready to shoot.

 

Delayed Effect is made to hold a Power in reserve until you're ready to use it, and Extra Time is made to require a Power to take extra time to start up. So why not?

 

Because it's grossly overcomplicated. All he wants is: pull the trigger, effect, delay until effect can be used again. That's it -- it seems to me that you've taken a straight forward idea, and exploded it into something way more than it needs to be.

 

He pulls the trigger, the weapon recovers. You can model it as Extra Time, absolutely (since ET is often used to simulate a delay). But delayed effect? You really have two choices as I see them, and I always err (per the rules) on the side of the cheaper of the limitations, so "extra reload time" seems like the fastest, easiest solution.

 

I'm not saying your build wouldn't work for some weapons, but it just doesn't sound like it's what he's looking for on this weapon.

[1EyedJack]

Re: Slow recharge rate?

 

If the recharge rate is more than 1 turn just use charges. Hero systems combats rarely go longer than 2 or 3 turns. Simply buy 1 charge and specify a recovery of that charge taking say a minute or more,if you want to make the power cost end then take the limit costs end. it isn't brain surgery.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Slow recharge rate?

 

Not quite. What I'm looking for -- or rather' date=' what the player is -- the ability to fire [u']one shot[/u], but then not be able to fire a second shot for a set period of time. If the time period is more than a Turn or two, that effectively turns it into a one-to-two shot weapon for most Hero combats. That restricts the power, it doesn't enhance it. But using DE penalizes the player in other ways by raising the Active Cost of the power, regardless of what the final point cost turns out to be. Which is fine if that's what you want to do. But it's not the only way to do it.

 

It does exactly what you've described; if it doesn't, and I'm not seeing somewhere that it doesn't, by all means show me where I'm mistaken.

 

Seriously, I'm not asking this rhetorically. I think it does what you are describing. So far all you've said is that it doesn't, but you haven't said how it doesn't.

 

Yeah, it increases the Active Cost, because you're gaining functionality. On an Instant Power, Extra Time means you activate the Power, Extra Time ticks off, effect happens. Extra Time plus Delayed Effect means you activate the Power, Extra Time ticks off, effect sits around waiting for you to make it happen. To me, that's extra functionality and therefore worth paying for.

 

But I'm not the GM; you are, so it's your decision and you don't have to justify it to me. If you say to me, "Chris, I'm not going to go any further with this because I'm the GM and I'm making my decision," then that's fine; I'm not going to press it. I'm just saying, you have a combination of exactly one Advantage and exactly one Limitation that, according to the descriptions of those Modifiers, does exactly what you want.

 

Because it's grossly overcomplicated. All he wants is: pull the trigger, effect, delay until effect can be used again. That's it -- it seems to me that you've taken a straight forward idea, and exploded it into something way more than it needs to be.

 

Overcomplicated? It's one Advantage and one Limitation! It doesn't get much more straightforward than that. And you get exactly that: pull the trigger (Delayed Effect), effect, delay until effect can be used again (Extra Time).

 

I'm honestly not seeing what Delayed Effect plus Extra Time does that he says he doesn't want, or what Delayed Effect plus Extra Time doesn't do that he says he does want.

 

(Okay, I'm seeing a small breakdown in the description, perhaps. He says he doesn't want the "first" shot to have the delay. What's the "first" shot? First shot per day? First shot per session? First shot ever? If I were the GM, I'd either assume he's already got one shot prepared, or that the first thing he does each day is prepare his shot so he's got it waiting. At any rate, I don't see it as an issue.)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Slow recharge rate?

 

Chris,

 

I am reposting in case you missed this:

 

...

 

43 Extra Time To Recharge (Option 2): Energy Blast 12d6, 16 Charges (+0), Delayed Effect (+1/4) (75 Active Points); Extra Time (Extra Phase, -3/4) - END=[16]

 

40 Extra Time To Recharge (Option 3): Energy Blast 12d6, 16 Charges (+0) (60 Active Points); Extra Time (Extra Phase, Only to Activate, Replace "Only to Activate" with "Does Not Affect 1st Shot"; -1/2) - END=[16]

 

 

Both builds are completely legal and functionally identical in practice.

 

Also, I will repeat what bigdamnhero already posted once with the link this time.

 

from:

http://www.herogames.com/SupportFAQs/revisedrules/POWER%20LIMITATIONS.htm

edit: new link

http://www.herogames.com/rulesFAQ.htm?ruleset=&section=&keywords=cool-down&dateString=

 

Q: I’d like to build a weapon for my character that has a “cool-down” period between uses. How can I represent this?

 

A: With Extra Time, more specifically defined: Extra Time (must have been at least [X interval of time] since last use). The value depends upon the shortest possible interval between uses, and since it won’t affect the first use in most encounters, the GM will probably want to reduce the value slightly.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Slow recharge rate?

 

Chris: Because Delayed Effect doesn't fit anywhere in the equation. That's why. Once the weapon cools, it fires normally. I use the exact same thing for my plasma rifles in HALO (they have "Extra Time" as a cool down period if they overheat).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Slow recharge rate?

 

The FAQ supports the theory that Extra Time is the appropriate limitation, with a reduction in value because the first shot requires no extra time. Obviously, from my earlier post, I think this approach makes sense.

 

I'd give a limitation of either 1/2 the value for "extra time", analogous to "only to activate", or move the limitation down the chart based on the spread between "burnout" and "jammed". The latter seems to set a precedent for the reduction in value of a limitation if it does not affect the first use of the power in a scene.