How to get swords on your starship

[Wormhole]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Ah, the swords in space debate...

 

Honestly, I share in the opinion that the dueling tradition route is the most viable way to go on this in general, since coming up with a more "pragmatic" reason that will pass muster with all the nitpickers is going to be damned near impossible. Although, there may still be some very rare occasions where using a blaster or firearm may not be such a hot idea:

 

"Buddy, I'd put that kidney-buster down if I were you; this place is full of ether and acetyline, dig?"

[austenandrews]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

If you assume rational' date=' calculating criminals, maybe. But most of them aren't. Either they don't think they will get caught (in which case : who cares what he penalty is!) or they aren't thinking of consequences at all. Once the criminal is cornered by the law, though, a strict gun=death law will encourage them to try to shoot their way out, I think.[/quote']

It depends. If tyrannical gun laws have drastically reduced the amount of available gun tech (not so farfetched in an isolated setting) you could easily have a large number of melee weapons in the hands of less moneyed or connected criminals. Look at it this way: Modern street punks don't normally carry assault rifles, because they're expensive and they get you in trouble. If they were more easily available, you bet there'd be more of them on the street.

 

But handguns? They're cheap, easy to get and the cops don't much care whether your papers are in order. Consequently they're everywhere on the street. And where a handgun isn't available or necessary, knives and sticks and fists suffice, as they have for millennia.

 

Now assume uber-strict gun laws, enforced by whatever high tech you care to invent. Of course there will be illegal guns on the street, but there'll be a lot fewer of them (as there are currently a lot fewer assault rifles in modern America). That means the "knives and sticks" quantity will go up.

 

From there assume that there are few restrictions on melee weapons. It's perfectly accepted for everyone to carry swords, and there are plenty of them around. In such a situation, I don't see how you couldn't have lots of swordplay on the street. Fighting with swords practically becomes SOP. (It might even be encouraged by the authorities, to reduce the psychological demand for guns.)

 

I mean, the premise here is plausibly getting swords into a SF setting, right? Not to get rid of all guns in all cases.

[Outsider]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

I'd argue that their small size (and thus light weight & concealablility) are one of the major reasons modern criminals carry handguns instead of rifles.

 

A problem with the 'uber-strict gun law actually prevents gun crime' argument is that a society that is that uber-strict (and uber-competent in enforcement) in this wouldnt put up with criminals walking about with swords either, IMHO. The UK (which has strict/eliminatorty gun laws) has a movement afoot to outlaw pointy kitchen knives, and nevermind swords!

[Markdoc]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

A problem with the 'uber-strict gun law actually prevents gun crime' argument is that a society that is that uber-strict (and uber-competent in enforcement) in this wouldnt put up with criminals walking about with swords either' date=' IMHO. The UK (which has strict/eliminatorty gun laws) has a movement afoot to outlaw pointy kitchen knives, and nevermind swords![/quote']

 

Actually, I don't see this as a problem - internet ravings apart, there has never been any intent to ban knives in the UK (what are banned are switchblades and similar "concealed blade weapons") and most criminals there use (surprise, surprise) knives (also baseball bats, broken bottle, bits of wood and occasionally even swords) to fight with and even to commit crimes with. The use of knives in crimes is far more common than that of guns in most developed countries (in fact the Times recently regaled us with the fact that the UK is the world's "Knife crime capital" ). In japan, where gun laws are strict, but swords have a big cultural association, the use of swords in gang fights is also not unknown - in Japan, you can even take your sword on a plane if it's in an official sword box!

 

So the only way that makes sense, to me, is to go this route. Make private ownership of guns (lasers, blasters, slugthrowers, whatever) illegal without fairly strict requirements (licence, etc). If you want people walking around with swords, add in a cultural bias that makes swords (or even duelling) acceptable. It could be that duels are typically fought with non-lethal weapons (a taser-sword, for example) as an accepted way of dealing with the stresses of future-urban life - that lends itself naturally to illegal duels with pointy steel.

 

Otherwise, knives, improvised weapons and martial arts become the criminal weapons of choice with the odd gun (stolen or otherwise illicitly acquired) appearing.

 

Whether the cops have firearms or not is up to the GM, and may vary from place to place: in a society where the public does not have access to firearms, it's quite likely the cops would drop them as well, relying on non-lethal weapons and armed backup (exactly the system used in some countries today).

 

This has two advantages.

1) It doesn't require you to abandon common sense - even if you come up with funky physics to prevent blasters working in certain environments, it's hard to see how that is going affect slugthrowers and romantic as it seems, the truth is a sword is a pretty crap hand to hand weapon compared to a handgun (or even a rifle and bayonet). There's a *reason* swords dropped out of favour.

 

2) it doesn't prevent you from using guns sometimes - you can give them to people you want to make more of a threat: the players can occasionally acquire them until they run out of ammo/powerpacks, etc. That adds a little variety, without straining credulity.

 

This doesn't have to be a "wussy" game - look at the Battle Angel Alita series - a very grim future world, with bounty hunters and plenty of fighting and death: but no guns.

 

cheers, Mark

[ghost-angel]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

One idea possibly:

 

Make it illegal to manufacture guns for any application that isn't military or police. Eventually, as you move down the time line from modern to your futuristic society, you will remove weapons from the public hands, and society will move to adapt other means, like swords.

 

Sure, there might be a few periods of unrest, soem dissent. Just keep moving down the timeline to where guns are extremely rare in the public hands, and rare in police hands being relegated to military use. Society itself can have modified it's behavior to live without the concept of guns.

 

It's a thought.

[Sundog]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Here's an option: Religion.

 

Make the dominant religion have a clause something along the lines of "To fight face to face shows courage and honour, but he who slays with distance brings down the wrath of god and imperils his very soul, and the souls of his comrades in arms." Believers wouldn't use ranged weapons, nor tolerate their use by people on their side.

 

This also gets around the concept of "push-button war" by making such things as nukes and big mass-drivers blasphemous.

[Outsider]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Again, the religion idea works if most everyone believes in it, and would work for pirates too, so long as they follow the religion.

 

But I feel bad for this society when it meets another society that doesnt see range fighting as blasphemy. It will either have to adapt its beliefs, or it will be conquered.

 

But yeah, if you want to set your game in the sci-fi equivalent of Edo period Japan, outlawing guns (socially, religiously, whatever) will work. It just won't last, unless there aren't any aliens.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

It just won't last' date=' unless there aren't any aliens.[/quote']

 

Given it's a work of fiction, it'll last as long as needed.

 

Also, we're talking SOCIETY not having access to guns readily. Not the MILITARY which come fully equipped with state of the art destructive capability.

[Pyre-Archer]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Swords on a starship...

 

Well, as one part of the article pointed out, boredom could be a factor. Put in a fencing mat, toss in an epee or three, and you could set up a few fencing matches just to kill the time, keep the crew fit, and blow off some steam.

 

Plus, as Piers Anthony noted in the Space Tyrant series (I think, it's been a while), poking a hole in someone's space suit with a rapier will take them out of the fight PDQ.

 

Though not swords per se, I also mind the Valerian Space Axes from the Lensman series by Doc E. E. Smith. The Valerians were a high strength people, and, while they can carry heavier ranged weapons, why not put some of that high strength to use with a good old beatin' weapon?

 

Just my 2 cents worth, apologies if it's already been raised here.

[Outsider]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

If its blasphemy to use a range attack, then the military wont use range attacks either. Unless you imagine a specific exemption in the religion for military people.

 

Perhaps the only military that the society has is a monastic order? The Holy Brotherhood of the BFG?

[gewing]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Swords on a starship...

 

Well, as one part of the article pointed out, boredom could be a factor. Put in a fencing mat, toss in an epee or three, and you could set up a few fencing matches just to kill the time, keep the crew fit, and blow off some steam.

 

Plus, as Piers Anthony noted in the Space Tyrant series (I think, it's been a while), poking a hole in someone's space suit with a rapier will take them out of the fight PDQ.

 

Though not swords per se, I also mind the Valerian Space Axes from the Lensman series by Doc E. E. Smith. The Valerians were a high strength people, and, while they can carry heavier ranged weapons, why not put some of that high strength to use with a good old beatin' weapon?

 

Just my 2 cents worth, apologies if it's already been raised here.

 

 

Did Doc Smith have axes or halbreds? I never liked the actual Lensman books much, but " The Vortex Blaster" or Masters of the Vortex was in the same universe, and he used a boarding axe or halbred. In addition to a Delameter.

 

[gewing]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

I thought of that as well, but couldnt come up with a good rationale why criminals or aliens would stick to the swords. Social and/or cultural aspects dont matter much to people who are already social outcasts or outsiders to the culture.

 

Also... there is only an impact on one's social status for using a blaster if someone lives to tell about it. And a blaster should have a large enough advantage over a sword that the guy with the blaster almost always wins.

 

But it depends on the setting. If the genre says that even desperate pirates stick to the social customs, and all the aliens one is likely to meet are integrated into the mainstream society in this regard, then sure, why not.

 

 

technological ideas.

For some reason the sensors available can detect a power supply at a very long range.

It is very easy to set up fields that cause feedback in power supplies, causing rather explosive problems.(I've been reading "Blackcollar" by Zahn)

 

 

Social

firearms and energy weapons have reached the point where society developed a phobia against them, they got tired of holes through buildings.

 

After being outlawed for 500 years, the government finally managed to collect MOST of the guns.

 

Religion: I am sure we could write one up that explained it...

 

Fads: Prince Beauregard the Fair liked to carry a sword, and the style mavens declared it the "Must Have" fashion accessory of the decade... After 75 years of his reign, wearing a blade had become ingrained.

 

 

 

On a related note, I was thinking about "modern Tech" weapons. The classic blade is still good, but what else could be made at current tech?

 

 

The Bang stick has already been noted.

 

A quarter staff or baton could have one or two (both ends) built into it.

 

For a short term fight, one of the nastiest weapons I have thought of is the "Bang Club" or baton. The initial version started out as a baseball bat. Rows of holes were drilled along the sides, and into each was placed a base plate with a "pin" on it, a cartridge, whether .22 LR, Magnum, or say .32acp. A steel tube was then slipped down over the cartridge, just long enough to rest on the rim of the case (.32 is semi rimmed, iirc) and stick out from the surface of the bat say a quarter or half inch. If really nasty, the end or the tube could be cut into a point. When the bat strikes someone, one or more of the tubes strikes the target, and is driven into the hole. This drives the cartridge onto the pin, firing it. Bang stick effect. A 12 gauge or magnum pistol cartridge bangstick could be built into the end of the bat. A tubular sheath could theoretically be built to protect it, then stripped of for battle.

 

The Baton version would probably have just one row of similar tubes, set into one side, or perhaps spiraled around the shaft.

 

It might be interesting to make something that would look kind of like a wooden sword or the Aztec weapon with the obsidian chips set into the sides... two rows, opposite each other like a double bladed sword...

 

A higher tech version could use sections of linear cutting charge, basically a form of shaped charge. Devastating, but wouldn't get many effective hits.

 

 

 

It might be possible to make a whip that would have a section of "Det Cord" on the end, that would be wrapped around a target then detonated. You would probably have to re- attach a new section, unless an effective feed system could be built

 

something along the lines of a bola (or a net??) strung with Det cord...

 

 

A nastier version of a stun baton could be built. Higher voltage and amperage... but power supplies might be interesting. Capacitors might work.

 

A blade that was made with two separate conductive sections, separated by a ceramic or plastic section, then each is attached to one side of a capacitor...

 

a shocking experience, that one.

 

 

The chain saw really wouldn't be a very good weapon, imo.

 

a cordless grinder spinning a circular saw blade however...

 

 

 

It is late, and I have a twisted mind anyway!!!!

[ghost-angel]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

If its blasphemy to use a range attack, then the military wont use range attacks either. Unless you imagine a specific exemption in the religion for military people.

 

Perhaps the only military that the society has is a monastic order? The Holy Brotherhood of the BFG?

 

Probably the same kind of reasoning that our armies (and crusading knights of old) can ignore the fifth commandment "Thou shalt not murder."

[Sword-dancer]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

I read somewhere that in true close combat the knife is superior to the handgun, if fighting on ships, space stations or such includes a lot of melee than the Sword would or could a renaissance in this places, especially shortsword, seax and rapier, add to that that energy weapons need special energy cells because they´re designt not to work with niormal energy cells and swords don`t run out of ammo.

[Spence]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

OK I haven't read the entire thread, but......

 

Has anyone brought up electronics being fragile? If you have been aboard a real ship, wires, cables and piping are not usually hidden away. They are exposed for easy access. On a starship I envision that this will also follow, unless it is a passenger vessel. And in that case the areas open to non-crew will have been idiot-proofed as much as possible. Sorta like a cruise ship or passenger ferry.

 

But on to my point. With guns or blasters, misses go somewhere. A wrong hit can do everything from destroy critical systems, release toxins/gas, render the ship or cargo salvageable. That would be the motivation for criminals to use swords, where is the profit if you destroy the cargo/ship while capturing it?

 

Just a thought

[Markdoc]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

OK I haven't read the entire thread, but......

 

Has anyone brought up electronics being fragile? If you have been aboard a real ship, wires, cables and piping are not usually hidden away. They are exposed for easy access. On a starship I envision that this will also follow, unless it is a passenger vessel. And in that case the areas open to non-crew will have been idiot-proofed as much as possible. Sorta like a cruise ship or passenger ferry.

 

And do security guards on cruise ships of passenger ferries (or airplanes) use swords? Nope. They use guns, like any sensible person would. As do modern-day pirates and hijackers. They only turn to blades - as on 9/11 - when they can't get guns onboard.

 

But on to my point. With guns or blasters, misses go somewhere. A wrong hit can do everything from destroy critical systems, release toxins/gas, render the ship or cargo salvageable. That would be the motivation for criminals to use swords, where is the profit if you destroy the cargo/ship while capturing it?

 

Just a thought

 

Swords? Gimme a break. Even if the inside of a space ship was made of Fragilium panels over wires of pure explodium, I'd still use something more practical: fragmenting plastic bullets, gas, tasers, poison-tipped plastic flechettes. etc, etc. And we are assuming of course that spaceships are so fragile that damage renders them useless - what, they have no engineers in the future?

 

The simple fact is that there is no good reason for choosing a sword over a practical weapon - unless you simply can't *get* practical weapons. But swords and swordplay are cool! To get the the cool, you need a reason other than practicality - and a social, cultural or religious reason seems like the easiest route.

 

cheers, Mark

[Outsider]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

If I were a pirate, (or a crew member) I'd be wearing a vacc suit during a boarding operation anyway. Poison gas or decompression isnt really an issue.

 

 

(this is assuming that those nice, non-bulky sci-fi vacc suits are around. If it is still NASA style puffy ones, maybe not)

[Spence]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Wow Mark,

 

Take a pill or something. You definitely woke up on the wrong side of the bed. We are talking fiction here and coming up with a semi-plausible idea to use as reason.

 

If I didn’t already know you to be a generally level headed and intelligent poster I’d think I just ran a troll trying his best to be arrogant and provoke a flame war

 

 

And do security guards on cruise ships of passenger ferries (or airplanes) use swords? Nope. They use guns' date=' like any sensible person would. As do modern-day pirates and hijackers. They only turn to blades - as on 9/11 - when they can't get guns onboard.[/quote']

 

When is the last time you were on one? If you have been on a passenger ferry lately, last week for me, most security do not carry guns. They carry a nightstick and/or a spray (mace, pepper). Only the actual law-enforcement people carry guns. But even so, I am sure a dozen armed pirates would quickly take out one or two armed police.

 

Swords? Gimme a break. Even if the inside of a space ship was made of Fragilium panels over wires of pure explodium, I'd still use something more practical: fragmenting plastic bullets, gas, tasers, poison-tipped plastic flechettes. etc, etc. And we are assuming of course that spaceships are so fragile that damage rend ers them useless - what, they have no engineers in the future?

 

The simple fact is that there is no good reason for choosing a sword over a practical weapon - unless you simply can't *get* practical weapons. But swords and swordplay are cool! To get the the cool, you need a reason other than practicality - and a social, cultural or religious reason seems like the easiest route.

 

cheers, Mark

 

 

 

But back to the subject at hand. The simple fact is even on a modern warship use of slug throwers inside the skin is not liked, hence most security carry shotguns for if things get serious. Of course using a firearm assumes a little thing called gravity to hold the firer in place, it would be embarrasing for a pirate to killhimself by bashing in his head on the the overhead when he pulls the trigger. All armed security may carry a nine mil or equivalent, but they are discouraged from trying to use it inside the skin. Partially because misses could hit someone other than the intended target, but mostly because of unintended secondary damage. Since on a real warship piping that carries water, seawater, fuel and CHT can all run within inches of each other, not to mention various air lines, ships service air, nitrogen, etc. For a spacegoing vessel adding items like oxygen lines is not far fetched. Electrical cabling is also hung in bundles. Those of us who have actually been to sea, have seen fires start for dozens of reasons. Cabling gets old and things heat up, especially high current cabling. Throw people in the mix and you suddenly have the idiot factor, oily rags sat down on the wrong casing for too long. Rack off a clip from an AK in an average workspace. You will at least hit one computer and maybe a monitor. Aboard a ship you will be fighting for critical spaces, Bridge, CiC, which means getting to them. Most warships are not built with offices and berthing’s as their first thought. They build the ship to fight first and then tuck offices, berthing and heads in where they can. On my last ship a serious gun battle on the forward mess deck would have been hard pressed not to hit one of the MANY purple 6inch pipes running the overhead and bulkhead. Purple = JP-5 or jet fuel. And regardless of movie land, a round from a rifle or assault rifle will most definitely crack a pipe. On a mess deck you could also hit gas lines, refrigerant and so on. On a seagoing ship gases and fumes can be vented out of the ship. Except for actual bulkheads that define compartments, most spaces are divided by lightweight partitions.

 

In a space going vessel that tries to be airtight (or at least leak very slowly) any gas leak would be bad, and concentrations could quickly build to a point where a smoldering sparking piece of common electrical gear, say a computer power supply, could ignite it. If the crew was engaged in a firefight, damage control probably wouldn’t be the top item on their mind. If the object is to destroy the enemy, then the idea of “boarding” a starship is in itself stupid. Why, the effort needed to match speed would expend large amounts of fuel or reaction mass, and all the target needs to do is keep tumbling or rolling randomly altered rates. You would need to severly damage them to eliminate their ability to maneuver, which would most likely damage the cargo.

 

If an actual boarding action is required, than you are obviously trying to take/capture something without damaging or killing them. Since ship and cargo are the most likely, charging in with guns blazing could quickly render the ships life support incapable of supporting a breathable atmosphere. An oxygen or flammable liquid in vapor state could easily lead to a flash fire. Damage like that could end up in the target ship needing weeks of repairs to get underway.

 

If I were a space going pirate, I would dock/capture the target ship, slow rotation to zero to cancel any usable “gravity” effect, and use blades or bang sticks. A gun would be a good way to bounce myself off the overhead and it would be very hard to control the muzzle of any firearm if I was trying to hang on while weightless and fire at the same time. A man trained to fight with a blade will always (OK, usually barring Lady Luck) take someone who is not in a one on one fight. So a trained boarding party should be able to overpower a regular merchant crew.

 

In a Trek type world, to get ride of gravity I’d handwave it with my “gravity canceling ray” or let them buy it for the ship or something. But just because the circumstances of modern technology at sea and in an atmosphere makes a weapon obsolete, doesn’t mean that things cannot change.

 

 

 

These may not agree with your world view, but was no need to be snippy about it.

[Spence]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

If I were a pirate, (or a crew member) I'd be wearing a vacc suit during a boarding operation anyway. Poison gas or decompression isnt really an issue.

 

 

(this is assuming that those nice, non-bulky sci-fi vacc suits are around. If it is still NASA style puffy ones, maybe not)

 

 

Yes, but how long could you live it the suit? Days? Weeks? No weather deck to go out and get fresh air. And since "poison" gas would probably translate to "flammable vapor" could you withstand a flash fire. And if there was a flash fire, what would happen if it ignites a heavier fire. Since life support would have to have oxygen lines somewhere, the odds of one leaking enough or rupturing and supplying the fire with oxygen isn’t too far fetched, especially if it was an opposed boarding with guns. Also securing the “leaks”, fighting the fires, venting and restoring the atmosphere probably would be a bigger chore than most people think. Especially with the ships crew dead or captured. No two ships are the same in detail. Even ships of the same class are different in their guts. To fight a fire on a strange ship with no one know its eccentricities is just "not good". Having done DC on a real ship, I cringe to think about clearing away the damage after a contested boarding action in the real world, add vacuum and hostile temperatures not to mention other things. Just the thought makes me think boarding will not be a “normal” option and if it does happen we won’t be seeing anyone “blazing away” with guns.

 

Of course Trek could happen, maybe

 

I'm probably being way too gritty/real world for an RPG. But Damage Control at sea is no laughing matter and in space it would be much much worse. Things that have little or no effect normally, take on deadly aspects in a confined space, let alone a airtight confined space.

[Markdoc]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Wow Mark,

 

Take a pill or something. You definitely woke up on the wrong side of the bed. We are talking fiction here and coming up with a semi-plausible idea to use as reason.

 

It was the "semi-plausible" that set me off. We've had this precise discussion on the hero boards multiple times and no-one has ever been able to come up with a plausible (or even semi plausible) reason not to use guns, apart from Dune style "slow fields" or some thing similar. There just isn't one. The same problems apply to - for example - modern-day pirates attacking fuel tankers in the south china sea - and they use automatic weapons and grenade launchers.

 

If I didn’t already know you to be a generally level headed and intelligent poster I’d think I just ran a troll trying his best to be arrogant and provoke a flame war

 

Thanks - maybe I came off a bit more ranty than intended.

 

When is the last time you were on one? If you have been on a passenger ferry lately' date=' last week for me, most security do not carry guns. They carry a nightstick and/or a spray (mace, pepper). Only the actual law-enforcement people carry guns. But even so, I am sure a dozen armed pirates would quickly take out one or two armed police. [/quote']

 

Depends where you are - the ferry I was most recently on had no security at all (Sydney) and the one before that had several threatening looking men with 9 mm handguns and AK47s (Tanzania). You arm appropriately to the expected threat. If your problems are likely to be hostile teenagers and drunks, mace and billyclub is appropriate. If you are expecting possible pirates/armed thieves, then automatic weapons. A sword's overkill for the first use and underkill for the second.

 

But back to the subject at hand. The simple fact is even on a modern warship use of slug throwers inside the skin is not liked' date=' hence most security carry shotguns for if things get serious. [/quote']

 

Most? Cite? Security on board royal navy warships use the L85A2 assault rifle and the Browning L9A1 semi-auto pistol. Royal marines use the same weapons (supplemented with the L86A2 LSW) and the Sigp226 for close quarters boarding actions and fleet protection.

 

I know shotguns are available to US navy personnel, but the commonest weapon is still the 9 mm handgun, as far as I know - we got any Navy guys here?

You can see naval personnel checking their weapons in after security detail here:

http://www.wasp.navy.mil/photogallery26.htm

 

The navy's mobile security force uses M9 9 mm pistol, M16A3 5.56 mm rifle as standard arms, M870 12 gauge shotguns and M203 40 mm grenade launcher as squad weapons, and M2 .50 caliber heavy-barrel machine gun, M240 7.62 mm light machine gun and MK-19 40 mm grenade machine guns as support weapons. The latter are a bit excessive for on-board use perhaps

 

Of course using a firearm assumes a little thing called gravity to hold the firer in place' date=' it would be embarrasing for a pirate to killhimself by bashing in his head on the the overhead when he pulls the trigger. [/quote']

 

See? This is the sort of straining for effect I meant. Sure, shooting firearms in zero-G is harder than under normal conditions. But swinging a sword - or even thrusting - is going to be an order of magnitude harder. If you figure zero-G combat into the equation, that moves the bar even further in favour of handguns.

 

I've snipped out the section on the variety of things that are packed into ships. I've been on enough warships to concede that they are confined spaces where lots of shooting could easily have bad consequences (and where swinging a sword is well-nigh impossible). I've also read enough news reports to know that in the instances in recent history where boarding actions have occurred, the boarders go in with grenades and automatic weapons. "Something bad might happen if we shoot" takes second place to "We will die if we are not properly armed and they are".

 

So basically, in exactly the conditions where you point out that using firearms is less than ideal, in the real world people ... well, they use firearms. Sure, it's not ideal. But it's better than any other options.

 

If I were a space going pirate' date=' I would dock/capture the target ship, slow rotation to zero to cancel any usable “gravity” effect, and use blades or bang sticks. A gun would be a good way to bounce myself off the overhead and it would be very hard to control the muzzle of any firearm if I was trying to hang on while weightless and fire at the same time. A man trained to fight with a blade will always (OK, usually barring Lady Luck) take someone who is not in a one on one fight. So a trained boarding party should be able to overpower a regular merchant crew. [/quote']

 

Unless, of course, they have guns. Two guys with semi-auto handguns, braced against the wall (or anything else handy), will easily kill your entire boarding party as they try to enter the ship. Even if one or two of you reach them, a handgun is a damn sight handier - and deadlier - in a clinch than a sword - and far easier to wield in the kind of cramped confines you were earlier postulating. In the colonial period we saw "sword vs gun" in hard, hand to hand combat (even samurai vs royal marines). Even under those conditions, guns pretty much always won.

 

In a Trek type world, to get ride of gravity I’d handwave it with my “gravity canceling ray” or let them buy it for the ship or something. But just because the circumstances of modern technology at sea and in an atmosphere makes a weapon obsolete, doesn’t mean that things cannot change.

 

These may not agree with your world view, but was no need to be snippy about it.

 

I'm willing to accept that some changes might occur that make swords useful again - but so far no-one has identified one in this thread, or its previous incarnations.

 

I'm not being snippy for the fun of it (well, not entirely ) but as a service to the GMs reading this thread. In the far-off days of classic Traveller, Marines were apparently trained to use Cutlasses for boarding actions. (I kid you not). A few GMs actually expected players to use them too, but players, not in general being total idiots, of course threw them away and got something practical - even in the face of rules for "accidental damage". When it comes to "if I miss him I might hit the computer" vs "if he gets to me I'll die" - well, it was always an easy choice, just as it is in real life.

 

cheers, Mark

[Captain Obvious]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

To me, the best reason to have swords on a starship is that it's cool, and that's what people do in that game world. If your players are all about blasting away at your swordsmen, then give swords some sort of in-game advantage.

[austenandrews]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Another possibility is to have swords be ubiquitous for practical reasons. Say for instance that pretty much all crewmen aboard a spaceship (or at a remote colony, etc.) carry configurable tools made of some lightweight, intelligent nanomaterial. Such tools can be programmed to form into countless shapes for various practical jobs. They can also be programmed to shape themselves into melee-type weapons. Since everybody has one, they eventually become commonplace as weapons. They could even morph themselves during a fight as part of an informal (or even formal) martial art.

 

Again, they wouldn't take the place of guns as such, but if everyone knows how to use one, any tough guy worth his salt would be handy with them. Plus they could be difficult for automatic security systems to detect, as opposed to the very obvious gunfire/lasers/etc.

[Spence]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

 

Most? Cite? Security on board royal navy warships use the L85A2 assault rifle and the Browning L9A1 semi-auto pistol. Royal marines use the same weapons (supplemented with the L86A2 LSW) and the Sigp226 for close quarters boarding actions and fleet protection.

 

I know shotguns are available to US navy personnel, but the commonest weapon is still the 9 mm handgun, as far as I know - we got any Navy guys here?

You can see naval personnel checking their weapons in after security detail here:

http://www.wasp.navy.mil/photogallery26.htm

 

The navy's mobile security force uses M9 9 mm pistol, M16A3 5.56 mm rifle as standard arms, M870 12 gauge shotguns and M203 40 mm grenade launcher as squad weapons, and M2 .50 caliber heavy-barrel machine gun, M240 7.62 mm light machine gun and MK-19 40 mm grenade machine guns as support weapons. The latter are a bit excessive for on-board use perhaps

 

Well since the US has a Ship Battle Force of 276 ships (includes 30 support) as of Apr 07 and the Royal Navy has an Active List of 91 (not including the 25 support ships). I tried to get a good count of current Chinese and Russian fleets but can't find one, so I'll amend to say "most western naval ships", since 246 versus 91 can be taken as most.

 

"we got any Navy guys here?" Yes, I are one. Or was until recently.

 

Key phrase was, in the skin. When I was Chief of Guard I was indeed issued a 9mm. But then I was pier side. My watch was issued weapons as appropriate. If they were on the pier they would have 9mm' and an assortment. If they were aboard they had shotguns. In some ports the ships 50cal mounts were manned 24/7.

 

Mobile Security Forces are an entire different animal. They zip around in their fast boats and are there (if speaking of anchored/moored/pier side ship security role) to turn away small boats from getting too close to the ship. If the small vessel refuses to turn away they are not really trying to "capture", the reality is they are there to sink/destroy it as fast as possible and as far from the ships as they can. Prisoners are nice, but not a necessity and can be picked up from the water, from the debris that used to be a boat. Hence they are fairly heavily armed.

In the boarding party support role, they are there to back up the Coast Guard team that is in charge of the boarding. Once again they are there not as much to capture but to be noticed and if needed to pound anyone into pulp.

All in all the role of the Mobile Security Forces doesn’t really place “capture” high on the list.

 

 

When a ships security force reacts, there is always a team that is armed up with the heavy stuff, but the majority will have shotguns to minimize collateral damage. The Aggressor force will of course have whatever. The thing is, if you are inside the skin a shotgun is more useful than a rifle anyway. You really don't want rounds carrying through partitions. One reason is ships tend to be crowded and crew are everywhere, plus there really isn’t anywhere to evacuate to. Automatic weapons fire by rounds that can penetrate the soft partitions will penetrate into a berthing somewhere and have a high probability of hitting someone friendly. Shotgun rounds tend to be stopped quicker. Also a jacketed round tends to bounce around longer.

 

The pics will always show the “cool” stuff. Just like you constantly hear about the Coast Guard rescuing people because their helo does the actual retrieval. But the Navy or Army air patrol that performed 70-80% of the actual search to locate them hardly gets mentioned in passing.

 

For boarding in space pretty much the entire thing would be "inside the skin".

 

(and where swinging a sword is well-nigh impossible).

 

 

A clarification that I completely failed to make before. When I visualize a "Sword" on a starship, I do not see three foot + ones. No rapiers, broadswords or long swords at all. I see adapted short weapons like a gladius. Short stabbing and slashing weapon that can readily be used one handed and has a heavy pommel suitable for bashing in the enemies brain while holding on with the other hand. A good solid hand to hand melee weapon, not an open field weapon.

 

I'm willing to accept that some changes might occur that make swords useful again - but so far no-one has identified one in this thread, or its previous incarnations.

 

I'm not being snippy for the fun of it (well, not entirely )

 

 

Snippy can be good. It can be fun too, as long as everyone realizes it is just being snippy. I think I always come off as snippy, intended or not. You just surprised me. You tend to not be snippy.

[ajackson]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

The problem with swords on board starships is that, well, swords are fairly heavy and fairly bulky, so people aren't going to carry them unless they're quite effective weapons. A sword is both less convenient and less powerful than a pistol.

 

There are basically two ways to get swords on board spaceships. Method 1 is to increase effectiveness, method 2 is to make them more convenient to carry. An example of method 2 would be if people use smart metal multitools regularly; if you can reconfigure your multitool into a sword, it will happen.

 

Increasing effectiveness is much harder. The basic problem here is power -- an unpowered weapon is limited to the (rather low) power of the human arm, and a powered weapon is typically going to be ranged. Almost anything that improves unpowered weapons will also help out powered weapons. Things like powered armor help, but even then, you need all kinds of different muscle-analogs for a powered arm, so it's going to be a lot heavier than a single-purpose weapon.

 

Note that you can deal with many of these problems with magitech force fields. Since they're undefined technology, you can just give them handy properties. For example, force field generators might be powerful but short range, letting you do things like create force blades but not force blasts.

[Adventus]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

The best exmple of sword in space is the Star Trek movie First Contact. The Scene where Picard and Worf fight the Borg outside the ship. Remember, Worf brought his Klingon sword(don't remembere the name) with him. He could have brought a phaser and just used that. Remember swords in space is COOL.

 

In the Deathstalker series from Simon Green, The reason for swords is that the main ranged weapon is a disruptor which takes up to 4 minutes to recharge between blasts. And the use of personal force fields made slug throwers obsolete. So while waiting for yor disruptor to recharge, you pull your sword and go mano-a-mano.