Multiform & Point Balancing: What am I missing?

[Thia Halmades]

Okay you hepcats. This is a power I'm just not comfortable with, because it seems "more abusable" than the others. My original interpretation of the vehicle rules was that one could go ahead and purchase a Vehicle at the listed 5:1 cost. Fine. Then it seems one need only burn 5 more points to get a whole nother vehicle of the same cost. POOF.

 

This isn't fitting with me, and Multiform seems to be looking the exact same way. Instead of paying for each form or group of forms, you pay up the highest cost of your "best" form and then just start multiplying them.

 

This struck all of us as somewhat unbalancing, since it allows a character to purchase multiple 350 point versions of himself, no? Can someone point out the fatal flaw in my understanding of the power, because it appears to be functionally limitless.

[Silbeg]

Re: Multiform & Point Balancing: What am I missing?

 

Okay you hepcats. This is a power I'm just not comfortable with, because it seems "more abusable" than the others. My original interpretation of the vehicle rules was that one could go ahead and purchase a Vehicle at the listed 5:1 cost. Fine. Then it seems one need only burn 5 more points to get a whole nother vehicle of the same cost. POOF.

 

This isn't fitting with me, and Multiform seems to be looking the exact same way. Instead of paying for each form or group of forms, you pay up the highest cost of your "best" form and then just start multiplying them.

 

This struck all of us as somewhat unbalancing, since it allows a character to purchase multiple 350 point versions of himself, no? Can someone point out the fatal flaw in my understanding of the power, because it appears to be functionally limitless.

 

I guess the key to the equation is that you can only use a single form at a time. Then, again, isn't the cost the same (+5) for extra Duplicates? Darn!

 

 

On the other hand, it does fit with other areas of the system, like vehicles, followers, and equipment. Is it purely balanced? Probably not. Does this matter?

 

Well, that is for you and your GM to decide.

 

As for Multiform, I wouldn't be too concerned, especially if the power is well conceived. However, if there is no cost to changing forms, and the various forms are just arbitrary characters joined so that the player never has to face a weakness... then I would say it is probably being misused.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Multiform & Point Balancing: What am I missing?

 

Damn near anything can be abused. Multiform just leaps out at people more than many other powers

 

I happen to love Multiform and I tend to feel that in a team game, it should usually have either an off switch of some kind or the alternate forms should be built on less points than the other players.

 

This doesn't matter quite as much in a solo game IMO.

[Wile_e01]

Re: Multiform & Point Balancing: What am I missing?

 

It would be really easy to come up with a way to balance any of the uses of such powers. Limit the number of such followers, Vehicles, multiforms a character has access to. or put a charges limitation on it limit the amount of switching that can be done.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Multiform & Point Balancing: What am I missing?

 

Damn near anything can be abused. Multiform just leaps out at people more than many other powers

 

I happen to love Multiform and I tend to feel that in a team game, it should usually have either an off switch of some kind or the alternate forms should be built on less points than the other players.

 

This doesn't matter quite as much in a solo game IMO.

 

Or alternately, make sure that the player who has the Multiform, assuming it's a 'every form has different powers' kind of deal, is the sort who won't go stepping on toes and assume his brick form just to show up the team's 'regular' brick.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Multiform & Point Balancing: What am I missing?

 

I dunno. I keep wishing that the rules for duplication were consistent throughout; it just seems more balancing to me overall. 1:5 up to X, then 1:1 there after. I see how this works, but I also see how it's unbalancing.

 

As always, I'm the GM. Good to be king! The primary issue here is one of balancing the total value of each structure; I'm probably going to cap the "combat chassis" the player has in mind at the same (approximate) point cost as the other PCs, but again, I'm not sure. Because it's so bloody cheap, it's hard to figure it all out and be both a) happy with it and not feel you're giving someone a raw deal.

[hancock.tom]

Re: Multiform & Point Balancing: What am I missing?

 

If you goin the deja vu machine I think I posted this exact question a few years ago. Monolith (no longer with us) gave a great answer, but I can't remember it so you are getting my crappy answer.

 

Answer? Its not nearly as bad as it looks. It offers a lot of versatility for the points, but compared to the power frameworks it really isn't that unbalanced. Multiform isn't something you can let a player take without reading his sheet but I have not had it kill a game, even when the player created a character whose purpose was to prove to the group that multiform was broken (this was following an argument on the subject)

 

Cheers

[McManus]

Re: Multiform & Point Balancing: What am I missing?

 

One rule I have seen is that you say the form with the most points is the "Base" form and has to pay the cost for the multiform power. If you have several 350 point forms you pick one to pay the cost and the others are limited to 350 or less. This allows for a character that has lots of forms, but is bad for designing a Billy Batson or Etrigan character because you basically have to pay points to be less powerful in your secret ID.

 

Or you could simply say that no form can be built on more points than the campaign limit (350 or what ever).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multiform & Point Balancing: What am I missing?

 

Matty Morph is a normal in a superhero campaign, built on 200+150 points, like all the other heroes. He has normal characteristics and quite a few skills, and his only superpower is a 80 point multiform that allows him to become one of 4 superheroes built on 200+150 points.

 

That seems unbalancing to me: it is, however, a perfectly valid use of the power, albeit one that will likely upstage everyone else. It is a power within the accepted range for active points for that sort of character, its fine.

 

Now being King, as you are, you can say 'no', and probably should, and this is by no means the worst way in which the power can be abused, but I do agree that it would be nice if the points reflected the utility a little more.

 

Here are a couple of ways you could do this.

 

You could up the cost (but you would then have to do the same with multiform, probably) to 2 cp per 5 points in the form.

 

You could have a base cost to purchase the power over and above what you pay for forms. This would, however, make 'low cost' flavour forms much more expensive.

 

You could create forms on half the base points + disadvantages (which would make forms proportionally less powerful without really limiting 'low cost' forms.

 

You could increase the cost of doublings, or (perhaps better) pcharge +5 points per additional form, rather than for twice as many forms.

 

You could pay for the first form at 1/5, the second at 1/10 and all subsequent ones at 1/20.

 

At present thought he only official check and balance is you. Whilst I know that Hero will never acheive perfect point/utility balance I do think this is one instance where we could get a little closer to the mark.

 

Oh, and whatever you do, don't allow someone to buy a 70 point VPP, cosmic, multiform only, total cost 122 points. That's just asking for trouble.

[tesuji]

Re: Multiform & Point Balancing: What am I missing?

 

 

This struck all of us as somewhat unbalancing, since it allows a character to purchase multiple 350 point versions of himself, no? Can someone point out the fatal flaw in my understanding of the power, because it appears to be functionally limitless.

 

the fatal falw is the gm.

 

you cannot purchase a single 1/2 d6 rka for a 350 superheroes game according to the hero rules. they dont allow you to buy annything.

 

the gm for your game does, or does not.

 

so, if the gm feels that having a single pc with multiple 350 multiforms is inappropriate for his superhero game, then he will say no.

 

if he feels it is right, he will say yes.

 

the core rules do not make that decision for him, nor do they take that decision out of his hands.

 

 

the rules for the tollkit are not mandates for what is allowable or appropriate in any game, the gm is the source for that.

[McManus]

Re: Multiform & Point Balancing: What am I missing?

 

To me the real abuse is that Legion, a 350pt Base character, could be a 125pt extra-competent normal (Secret ID) that could turn into any of 32 1000pt (1000/5=200pts +25pts of doubling) characters at will. Or it could be Sluggo the -25pt UnterNormal with a 375pt Multiform that can transform into 1875pt LordgodalmightyMan. We might never see poor Sluggo again. The only thing stopping this is active point caps in a campaign or a GM being experienced enough to disallow this obvious abuse.

[OddHat]

Re: Multiform & Point Balancing: What am I missing?

 

I agree that the GM is the main check on the potential abuse of this power.

 

I'd also add that a fair number of character types are just plain easier to put together with Multiform as it is. Ben10, Beast Boy, Croyd Crenson, Captain, Trips, Kid Dinosaur, Martian Manhunter in his full Silver Age glory, etc. Even characters like Rogue become easier to model with Multiform.

 

Sure, you could model all of the above in other ways, but multiform is a nice, direct way to tackle the problem.

 

One suggestion that goes around every now and then is to make every form pay for the multiforms. If the player wants 16 350 point forms, every one of those forms has to sink 90 points into Multiform. If you limit the forms point totals to the campaign maximum, that's not a bad place to go, even though it does move even some real animals out of the range of the multiform using shape changer. However, then you get into situations where players will be tempted to mess around with excessive limitations and other schemes to get around the issue. And again, you might just not want to enforce the hard 350 limit on all possible forms; some entries from HSB, TUV, etc, have a point cost out of proportion to their utility in combat when compared with a Superhero built on the same points.

 

For myself, I rarely use or allow Multiform in my campaigns. If I were concerned, as a campaign rule I'd use the "all forms pay, and are capped at the campaign limit" option above.

[Kenn]

Re: Multiform & Point Balancing: What am I missing?

 

One rule I have seen is that you say the form with the most points is the "Base" form and has to pay the cost for the multiform power. If you have several 350 point forms you pick one to pay the cost and the others are limited to 350 or less. This allows for a character that has lots of forms, but is bad for designing a Billy Batson or Etrigan character because you basically have to pay points to be less powerful in your secret ID.

 

Or you could simply say that no form can be built on more points than the campaign limit (350 or what ever).

 

With the way the rules are today, couldn't you build Billy as the base form, and have him pay the 150 points for Multiform that would turn him into the 750 point Captain? Or if we enforce your second suggestion, the 70 points for the 350 point Captain (or whatever the campaign limits are)?

 

That's where I think things get munchkiny. That's paying essentially for 1/5th of the points, where said characters built with Only in Hero ID one would pay 80% of the points.

[incrdbil]

Re: Multiform & Point Balancing: What am I missing?

 

Simply put, watch Multiform like a hawk.

 

As written, without GM scrutinization, its easily abusable--even with AP and DC limits. The one team wonder, the 'I've got a form with the power we need' swiss army knife hero. Or the player who innocently asks that multiform helps him 'flesh out' character around those annoying points limits. Little Billy with his one multiform (a 1350 point cost multiform) wont cause any problems. Honest.

 

 

 

Now, granted, with a lot of checks and balances, it can be a dandy way to do certain fx. but dont turn your back on it for a moment.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multiform & Point Balancing: What am I missing?

 

To me the real abuse is that Legion, a 350pt Base character, could be a 125pt extra-competent normal (Secret ID) that could turn into any of 32 1000pt (1000/5=200pts +25pts of doubling) characters at will.

 

 

 

.......

 

...and if you could find 850 points of disadvantages, I'd probably let you play the character, just for a laugh

 

I mean, with that many disads, the easiest way to defeat him is probably just to shout 'Boo', and he'll have a breakdown.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multiform & Point Balancing: What am I missing?

 

Simply put, watch Multiform like a hawk.

 

As written, without GM scrutinization, its easily abusable--even with AP and DC limits. The one team wonder, the 'I've got a form with the power we need' swiss army knife hero. Or the player who innocently asks that multiform helps him 'flesh out' character around those annoying points limits. Little Billy with his one multiform (a 1350 point cost multiform) wont cause any problems. Honest.

 

 

 

Now, granted, with a lot of checks and balances, it can be a dandy way to do certain fx. but dont turn your back on it for a moment.

 

I have to disagree. I got a hawk in for this very purpose and it was great at watching, I'll give you that, but it never actually veto'd any characters. Well there was that one, DoormouseLad. Mind you he didn't even have a multiform, just shrinking and a furry suit....

 

...I'd advise you to watch multiform like a GM who keeps files on his players that the CIA would be impressed by. Mind you, it is right that there are some concepts that you just can't do without it:

 

GM: OK, what's the concept on this one?

 

Munckin: I want to be ridiculously powerful and have a character that is the best in the group in whatever scenario we find ourselves in.

 

GM: Well, so long as it is in concept...

 

Despite my rapidly spiralling comedy writing career, generally MF is not too much of a problem, and it is a truly useful power to have in the old toolbox. I'd dicker with the costs a bit if I were writing 6ED (what are the chances?) but it would still be there, more or less as is.

[OddHat]

Re: Multiform & Point Balancing: What am I missing?

 

...and if you could find 850 points of disadvantages, I'd probably let you play the character, just for a laugh

 

I mean, with that many disads, the easiest way to defeat him is probably just to shout 'Boo', and he'll have a breakdown.

 

Yup.

 

Billy's player could pay an additional 1/5 (iirc) to increase the target forms base points rather than taking extra disads, but that explicitly requires GM's permission. Any GM who not only allows the alternate form to exceed campaign limits but also allows the base point increase despite the "with GM's permission" tag knows what he's getting into.

[incrdbil]

Re: Multiform & Point Balancing: What am I missing?

 

Yup.

 

Billy's player could pay an additional 1/5 (iirc) to increase the target forms base points rather than taking extra disads, but that explicitly requires GM's permission. Any GM who not only allows the alternate form to exceed campaign limits but also allows the base point increase despite the "with GM's permission" tag knows what he's getting into.

 

 

Thing is, I've never met a player who, after really reading multiform, didnt immediately present a multiform valued at several hundred points. I swear that part is printed in special ink invisible to players.

 

It's one of those things you wish you had pre-recorded GM lectures for, or mass produced printed flyers.

 

Maybe we need a standardized Hero Systems GM's rejection of submitted character form

[OddHat]

Re: Multiform & Point Balancing: What am I missing?

 

Thing is, I've never met a player who, after really reading multiform, didnt immediately present a multiform valued at several hundred points. I swear that part is printed in special ink invisible to players.

 

It's one of those things you wish you had pre-recorded GM lectures for, or mass produced printed flyers.

 

Maybe we need a standardized Hero Systems GM's rejection of submitted character form

 

Or a baseball bat and a nearby swamp. Whatever works.

[GAZZA]

Re: Multiform & Point Balancing: What am I missing?

 

My personal take on Multiform (had this issue come up for a PC in my new campaign which starts Friday):

• Multiforms where the base character is not the one built on the most points need careful justification.
  
• Multiforms where the personality does not change, where the skills are the same, and so forth are not necessarily the correct way to build things.
  
• I don't allow Multiform characters to use power frameworks on anything other than the base character.

There was an old Haymaker article that led me down the path of the last point. A Multiform is, basically, a Multipower of characters; a Multipower slot cannot contain another power framework, so a Multiform shouldn't either.

 

A lot of shapeshifting concepts don't need Multipower. The character in my campaign that was being considered was a human mage that could turn into a dragon form, but he wanted to be able to use all the magic in both forms. I suggested instead of Multiform just buy the extra stats and powers for the dragon as "Only in Hero Id". Vampires that can turn into bats and wolves can acquire the appropriate powers with a Multipower linked to a Shapeshift.

 

Werewolf type concepts, where both forms are very different from each other, are what Multiform is really needed for (as it's very clumsy to develop two sets of Disadvantages, for example).

[Rapier]

Re: Multiform & Point Balancing: What am I missing?

 

My active listening classes (oh aren't those lots of fun) requires me to make this statement:

 

What I hear you saying is that MultiForm is problematic because it would allow a character to build of Form that was well in excess of campaign limits. In essence, this would allow a player who was told to limit his character to 350 pts to spend 250 points on a 1000 pt MultiForm character...thus maneuvering around the campaign limits. Yes?

 

There is a quick, easy and logical response...and it's even in the RuleBook. Turn to p 287, close your book and WHACK him upside his head. Problem solved!

 

If my understanding is correct, I don't know where the problem is. I've never had a player approach me with such a character, and I would like to believe that they never would. The campaign is based upon 350 pt characters. If you come up with any concept that allows you to get beyond 350 points, you are either misunderstanding or believe I'm incredibly stupid.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multiform & Point Balancing: What am I missing?

 

My active listening classes (oh aren't those lots of fun) requires me to make this statement:

 

What I hear you saying is that MultiForm is problematic because it would allow a character to build of Form that was well in excess of campaign limits. In essence, this would allow a player who was told to limit his character to 350 pts to spend 250 points on a 1000 pt MultiForm character...thus maneuvering around the campaign limits. Yes?

 

There is a quick, easy and logical response...and it's even in the RuleBook. Turn to p 287, close your book and WHACK him upside his head. Problem solved!

 

If my understanding is correct, I don't know where the problem is. I've never had a player approach me with such a character, and I would like to believe that they never would. The campaign is based upon 350 pt characters. If you come up with any concept that allows you to get beyond 350 points, you are either misunderstanding or believe I'm incredibly stupid.

 

Ah the universal language of understanding: violence.

 

Personally I don't allow forms that exceed the campaign limtis, as a house rule. However, even forms withing the campaign limits can be problematical. If you can become a 350 point brick, a 350 point speedster, a 350 point flying energy blaster and a 350 point desolidifying, shapeshifting illusion projector, all for 80 points, that can be a leeeetle unbalancing too, and can tick off other players who thought that they had that schtick covered.

 

Back to page 287, then....

[OddHat]

Re: Multiform & Point Balancing: What am I missing?

 

If my understanding is correct, I don't know where the problem is. I've never had a player approach me with such a character, and I would like to believe that they never would. The campaign is based upon 350 pt characters. If you come up with any concept that allows you to get beyond 350 points, you are either misunderstanding or believe I'm incredibly stupid.

 

Agreed as far as saying no and possibly hitting your players is concerned.

 

I have seen attempts at abuse like this by some players. Sometimes it's because the game for the player is in building the ultimate min-maxed power machine; sometimes it's because the player really does want to play a character at the Silver Age Martian Manhunter level and hasn't thought about what that would mean in a campaign set at the DCAU level.

 

In a way, powers like Multiform make a good litmus test. If the potential player can't take no for an answer when he tries to hand in a 1000 point cosmic hero in a 350 point city level campaign, he wasn't going to work out anyway.

 

Ah the universal language of understanding: violence.

 

Ayup.

[Jhamin]

Re: Multiform & Point Balancing: What am I missing?

 

If my understanding is correct' date=' I don't know where the problem is. I've never had a player approach me with such a character, and I would like to believe that they never would. The campaign is based upon 350 pt characters. If you come up with any concept that allows you to get beyond 350 points, you are either misunderstanding or believe I'm incredibly stupid.[/quote']

 

In my mind this falls into the same category as the guy who wants to layer 12/12 Armor and a 12/12 Force field in a game where the everyone agreed not to have powers that gave them more than 15 Res Def.

 

Sure, he hasn't bought any powers that are illegal, but he is doing his best to circumvent the guidelines. And that isn't cool.

 

A character with a 8d6 RKA in a game where everyone agreed to 3d6RKAs isn't cool. And a character with a 1000 point multiform in a 350 point game isn't cool.

 

Hero system isn't here to tell you what you can do, it is here to tell you how to do it. It isn't Hero's fault that people want to do things that aren't fun for everybody.

[pawsplay]

Re: Multiform & Point Balancing: What am I missing?

 

In one corner is Multipower Man. He has spent 280 points on characteristics and skills, and 70 points on his attack multipower.

 

Attack Multlipower (50 points)

u1 (5 points)

u2 (5 points)

u3 (5 points)

u4 (5 points)

 

Each slot is 50 active points.

 

In the other corner is Multiform Man. He he four forms (+10 points) and can change forms as a zero phase action (+5). With 55 more points, he purchases a number of 275 forms. Each is identical to his original form, except that instead of a multiform power, he spends 65 points on a single power, identical to each of Multipower Man's slots, above, except more points.

 

Thus, multiform is not only abusable, but even in its most basic form, extremely efficient (i.e. underpriced).

 

The ONLY thing keeping multiform under control is the GM. The power itself is priced arbitrarily cheap. Nothing in the price structure prevents you from building essentially any number of characters you want with any abilities you like. At some point, you can have enough powers to effectively be a walking VPP, and if that's not enough, one of your forms can have a VPP for those tight spots.

 

Since you can buy vastly more powerful forms, there is nothing preventing one of those forms from buying even more forms based on even more points by taking the Multiform power itself.

 

Once upon a time, previous versions required multiform to have the power in each of its forms. While balanced, this resulted in fiddly math problems (particularly if you tried to match the forms in some respects). It also meant that even heavily limited versions had trouble reaching the normal point total.

 

I suggest two tweaks:

 

1. Going over the points total for the base character does not cost double (an extra character point per point); instead, it costs 1:1.

2. Each doubling for +5 points reduces the available base points of each form by 5 points.

 

Thus, having two full power forms would cost 1/5 the total points, plus five for the doubling, plus five more points to overpower each form by five points (to offset the loss). In a 200+150 game, that would be a cost of 85 points.