DusterBoy Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 Re: Cool Guns for your Games The GAU-8/A is for wannabes: Bofors 40mm L70 cannon: AC-130 Spectre gunship in action: See the gun they have to load manually? That's a 105mm howitzer, ladies and gents! The biggest gun ever mounted on an aircraft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remjin Posted April 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 Re: Cool Guns for your Games The whole PDW thing started with Knight Arms, didn't it? They have some special 6mm round for it or something. Looks sweet, and from all I've seen of it, I'd love to have one. Not really available to us stupid civilians, though. *sigh* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DusterBoy Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Re: Cool Guns for your Games The whole PDW thing started with Knight Arms' date=' didn't it? They have some special 6mm round for it or something. Looks sweet, and from all I've seen of it, I'd love to have one. Not really available to us stupid civilians, though. *sigh*[/quote'] Sure, 'cos everyone knows that us "stupid civilians" can't be trusted with weapons, esp military ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remjin Posted April 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Re: Cool Guns for your Games Sure' date=' 'cos everyone knows that us "stupid civilians" can't be trusted with weapons, esp military ones.[/quote'] Cuz a longer barrel is somehow safer, as well, apparently. I think the standard barrel is like 10" or something. I'd have to look again to be sure... okay, either an 8" or 10" barrel. If anyone is curious, Knight's Armament Company PDW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadmaster Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Re: Cool Guns for your Games Cuz a longer barrel is somehow safer' date=' as well, apparently. I think the standard barrel is like 10" or something. I'd have to look again to be sure... okay, either an 8" or 10" barrel. If anyone is curious, Knight's Armament Company PDW I think FN is responsible for the PDW with their P90. It uses a 5.7mm round they designed specifically for it in the late 80s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remjin Posted April 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Re: Cool Guns for your Games I think FN is responsible for the PDW with their P90. It uses a 5.7mm round they designed specifically for it in the late 80s. Oh yeah, forgot about that for some reason. Similar sort of thing, I suppose. I don't know much about the ballistics, honestly. I think the P90 looks funky, and that magazine just seems awkward. Then again, I've never handled one, so who knows... =) Oh, and to be a tad on subject, a gun pic... I want one similar to this in a commander length, with novak half-moon rear, XS regular dot front, and possibly stainless safety lever, slide release, and hammer. Not sure on the details, yet. Thinkin' of it as a dressy pistol. Something about a black frame, high polish hard chrome slide, and ivory stocks tickles my "pretty" button. Probably have the top and back in satin/matte chrome though. I'd forgo the rubber finger grooves for some checkering, a serrated top, and a mag well. Probably even go with melonite on the frame portions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadmaster Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Re: Cool Guns for your Games Well the P90 I think was actually a reaction to the machine pistols that were popping up in the 80s, Stechkin, Beretta 93R, H&K VP70 etc. The later PDWs are mostly just submachineguns, using cartridges with better ballistics than the pistol cartridges traditionally used in smgs to provide a longer effective range. With the exception of the P90 most of these current weapons can probably trace their heritage to the CAR-15, H&K HK53 and similar short barrel assault "rifles". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remjin Posted April 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Re: Cool Guns for your Games Well the P90 I think was actually a reaction to the machine pistols that were popping up in the 80s, Stechkin, Beretta 93R, H&K VP70 etc. The later PDWs are mostly just submachineguns, using cartridges with better ballistics than the pistol cartridges traditionally used in smgs to provide a longer effective range. With the exception of the P90 most of these current weapons can probably trace their heritage to the CAR-15, H&K HK53 and similar short barrel assault "rifles". I can see why they would evolve. I'm no operator or anything, just some schlub who likes RPGs and movies, but for someone serious... I could see want for something more potent in a small package. I'm surprised that there really hasn't been more in the mid-range considering the large and varied quantity of firearms available these days and the many developers. I guess it just shows that real innovation is harder to come by than is often thought, I suppose. Well, if ever these types of weapons become available to the rest of us... sign me up. You wouldn't happen to have any pictures of some of the other PDW type weapons, would you? I wonder if that odd little AK submachine gun thing I've seen here and there counts as one of these... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Re: Cool Guns for your Games http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70900 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DusterBoy Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Re: Cool Guns for your Games You mean the AKSU-74? Could be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadmaster Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Re: Cool Guns for your Games I haven't seen an actual definition, but I would say a PDW differs from an SMG or short rifle by using a short bottleneck cartridge (miniature rifle cartridge) with similar power to a pistol. The FN P90 uses a 5.7x28mm round producing 397 ft/lbs The H&K MP7 PDW uses a 4.6x30mm round producing 421 ft/lbs By comparison Pistol 9x19mm (9mm Parabellum) produces 420 ft/lbs (from a pistol) 11.5x23mm (.45 ACP) produces 352 ft/lbs (from a pistol) Rifle 5.45x39mm (5.45mm Soviet) produces 971 ft/lbs (from a 16" barrel) 5.56x45mm (5.56mm NATO) produces 1767 ft/lbs (from a 20" barrel) 7.62x39mm (7.62mm Soviet) produces 2010 ft/lbs (from a 16" barrel) The Knight PDW blurs this a bit by using a slightly larger more powerful cartridge (optimized for an 8-10" barrel) and is really going more for that CAR-15 / M-4 carbine market. The Knight PDW uses a 6x35mm round producing 831 ft/lbs (8" barrel) The AK-74SU has very similar performance to the Knight PDW. The PDW (FN P90) entered the market as a light weapon intended for non front line troops who needed a light weapon more powerful than a pistol. This very group was the reason the M1 Carbine was adopted in WW2. 7.62x33mm (.30 carbine) produces 880 ft /lbs (from an 18" barrel) I guess there really isn't much new, just new packaging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remjin Posted April 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Re: Cool Guns for your Games I like new packages? =) Yeah, I was referring more to the power level of the Knight Arms, AKSU, and similar. Something a little less than a full rifle but more than a pistol. That's what I think of when I say PDW. If its pistol level of energy, seems like it should be a SMG. But hey, all academic to me, since I can't have either an SMG or a PDW. =P Unless, of course, I don't mind there being a much longer barrel on it... in which case, I may as well have a rifle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadmaster Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 Re: Cool Guns for your Games I like new packages? =) Yeah, I was referring more to the power level of the Knight Arms, AKSU, and similar. Something a little less than a full rifle but more than a pistol. That's what I think of when I say PDW. If its pistol level of energy, seems like it should be a SMG. But hey, all academic to me, since I can't have either an SMG or a PDW. =P Unless, of course, I don't mind there being a much longer barrel on it... in which case, I may as well have a rifle. I'm just going off the early PDWs inspired by the P90, clearly it is evolving. Initially the idea was a pistol power range with enhanced range and armor penetration. Complaints from early users have been poor knockdown. Since most 3rd world combatants don't wear body armor the enhanced armor penatration has not been a plus, so 9mm SMGs are still quite popular for the SMG role. The problem with short rifles like the CAR-15 has always been the fact the barrels are way to short for a cartridge like the 5.56mm NATO, which results in massive muzzle flash. The 6mm round used by the Knight PDW bumps the power level up, but only just enough for the barrel length. It will be interesting to see if militaries are willing to add a new round to their arsenals between the pistols/smg round and rifles. FN offered a pistol in their 5.7mm, this 6mm will not be able to offer that option. So far most seem to be resisting a move like that, but it has happend before. The US and NATO resisted 5.56mm for years because it meant their primary rifle did not use the same caliber as the machinegun. Obviously they got past that eventually. However the various 6.??? rounds being developed for the M4 have not gone far beyond development despite their obvious performance improvement in short barrel weapons vs short barrelled 5.56mm weapons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remjin Posted April 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 Re: Cool Guns for your Games Are you talking about the FN Five-Seven with regards to the pistol version accompanying the P90? Yeah, i see all this 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, etc. stuff every once in awhile. Thing is, I've never been that into the whole AR-15/M-15/M-4/etc. system. I mean, I like the idea, but I have never liked the platform that much. I can see the benefits, and if I were to get one, I'd probably go with a Lewis Machine & Tool version with the gas system and the integrated fore-end. I find it surprising, considering its modularity, that they can't just adjust to whatever suits their needs. Its just a matter of swapping parts. Especially for those in the special forces community, who don't use as much standardized stuff in any case. I'm even seeing the armed forces bringing the M-14 back in limited quantities. Its not like cost is a restrictive factor compared to all the other toys. *shrug* Then again, I don't have to equip that many people... so who knows what the logistics and such are. Eh. Oh, and another pic, just to be somewhat on topic... 1. The Tussey stealth-comp in commander size, I believe. 2. The Detroit Cell Phone 3. An interesting glock (notice the muzzle inscription) 4. Belt-fed 1911 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadmaster Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 Re: Cool Guns for your Games Yes, the Five seven is the pistol I meant. The various 6mm somethings for the AR-15 look like they have a lot of promise, and if one were adopted I'm sure there will be other rifles chambered for the round. 7mm was selected as the "perfect" assault rifle cartridge back in the 50s, but politics resulted in the 7.62mm NATO. Later politics again brought about a change to the 5.56mm NATO. So the various 6mm cartridges once again show there is little new, it would be funny if 60 years after first proposed a 6-7mm cartridge was adopted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 Re: Cool Guns for your Games Heh, the Knight PDW is written up for the Kazei 5 sourcebook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remjin Posted April 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 Re: Cool Guns for your Games Heh' date=' the Knight PDW is written up for the Kazei 5 sourcebook.[/quote'] sweet. Post it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 Re: Cool Guns for your Games <4>KNIGHTS ARMAMENT COMPANY PERSONAL DEFENSE WEAPON Effect: RKA 2d6, Autofire (5 shots) Target: One character Duration: Instant Range: 100” Charges: 30 STR Min: 12 Description: Designed to have the size and weight of a submachine gun with the range and power of an assault rifle, the KAC PDW is a popular with corporate security, street samurai, and military support troops (such as artillery crews, truck drivers, tank crews, and so on). In addition to its side-folding stock and 30 round box magazine, the KAC PDW uses a new 6mm round capable of muzzle velocities equal to the standard military 5.56mm cartridge, while optimized for the PDW’s shorter barrel length. This grants the PDW excellent accuracy at longer ranges. Game Information: 22 Knights Armament Personal Defense Weapon: RKA 2d6, 30 Charges (+1/4), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2) (52 Active points); OAF (-1), Beam (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), STR Minimum (-1/4), Limited Range (100"; -1/4) (total cost: 17 points) plus +1 OCV (5 Active points); OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (total cost: 2 points) plus +2 versus Range Modifiers (6 Active points); OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (total cost: 3 points) 6 Flash Suppressor: Invisible to Normal Sight (+1/4) for up to 52 Active Points of RKA; OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) Total cost: 28 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 Re: Cool Guns for your Games Oh yeah, forgot about that for some reason. Similar sort of thing, I suppose. I don't know much about the ballistics, honestly. I think the P90 looks funky, and that magazine just seems awkward. Then again, I've never handled one, so who knows... =) Oh, and to be a tad on subject, a gun pic... I want one similar to this in a commander length, with novak half-moon rear, XS regular dot front, and possibly stainless safety lever, slide release, and hammer. Not sure on the details, yet. Thinkin' of it as a dressy pistol. Something about a black frame, high polish hard chrome slide, and ivory stocks tickles my "pretty" button. Probably have the top and back in satin/matte chrome though. I'd forgo the rubber finger grooves for some checkering, a serrated top, and a mag well. Probably even go with melonite on the frame portions. Actually, I think the COlt SCAMP or even the M1 Carbine started the PDW theme... I still think a Scamp would be great fun. Or a evolved version of the "Bushmaster" "Arm Pistol"/submachine gun. I don't even need full auto. I think it would be GREAT fun to make a similar gun in something like .35 remington, or other hunting rounds. Though a version of the FN 5.7 pistol with a longer barrel and a three round burst, fitted with a laser sight and a muzzle break... oh, and maybe an extended magazine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 Re: Cool Guns for your Games Actually, I think the COlt SCAMP or even the M1 Carbine started the PDW theme... I still think a Scamp would be great fun. Or a evolved version of the "Bushmaster" "Arm Pistol"/submachine gun. I don't even need full auto. I think it would be GREAT fun to make a similar gun in something like .35 remington, or other hunting rounds. Though a version of the FN 5.7 pistol with a longer barrel and a three round burst, fitted with a laser sight and a muzzle break... oh, and maybe an extended magazine? I was gonna mention the Bushmaster "armpistol" as a conceptual ancestor to the P90. I've always had a soft spot for them, m'self. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadmaster Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 Re: Cool Guns for your Games I was gonna mention the Bushmaster "armpistol" as a conceptual ancestor to the P90. I've always had a soft spot for them' date=' m'self.[/quote'] The Sidewinder 9mm SMG was an "armgun" similar to the Bushmaster. The High Standard M10 shotgun was another armgun. None seem to have done well though, the swiveling stock they used seems to have been a problem. It was apparently common for the stock to be fixed on the M10 which was the only one of these guns to actually reach regular production. I saw an M10A in a gun store years ago, I would have loved to buy it, but the price was way out of my budget. I don't believe it was listed yet so the High Standard M10 http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh26-e.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 Re: Cool Guns for your Games The Sidewinder 9mm SMG was an "armgun" similar to the Bushmaster. The High Standard M10 shotgun was another armgun. None seem to have done well though, the swiveling stock they used seems to have been a problem. It was apparently common for the stock to be fixed on the M10 which was the only one of these guns to actually reach regular production. I saw an M10A in a gun store years ago, I would have loved to buy it, but the price was way out of my budget. I don't believe it was listed yet so the High Standard M10 http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh26-e.htm I found some stuff on the Sidewinder armgun SMG a couple years ago in "Small Arms Review." It was a very simple design, firing from an open bolt. I have given some thought to how to build a semi-auto only variant. I think it might be possible to put the trigger operating mechanisms inside the pistol grip. Then use about a 10-15" barrel, and put a laser sight on it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadmaster Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 Re: Cool Guns for your Games I found some stuff on the Sidewinder armgun SMG a couple years ago in "Small Arms Review." It was a very simple design, firing from an open bolt. I have given some thought to how to build a semi-auto only variant. I think it might be possible to put the trigger operating mechanisms inside the pistol grip. Then use about a 10-15" barrel, and put a laser sight on it... One of those Calico guns with the helical magazines might work for you,they may have even been a bullpup, but I don't recall now. I think they were only available in .22 LR but I assume you are primarily looking at a plinker so that shouldn't be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted May 3, 2009 Report Share Posted May 3, 2009 Re: Cool Guns for your Games One of those Calico guns with the helical magazines might work for you' date='they may have even been a bullpup, but I don't recall now. I think they were only available in .22 LR but I assume you are primarily looking at a plinker so that shouldn't be a problem.[/quote'] They made a couple of 9mm versions, but... Much bulkier than I had in mind. IIRC the AWB killed the company. I have read that when it was enacted they were working on a 5.56mm gun with a helical magazine. My main idea was to make a semi-automatic "hunting pistol" that would handle a serious round. It was sort of inspired by my brother's TC Contender in .375 Winchester. I have even thought of making something along those lines that would have a tubular magazine to keep the total bulk down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted May 3, 2009 Report Share Posted May 3, 2009 Re: Cool Guns for your Games Any opinion on my PDW post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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