Persuasion Restrainable?

[CourtFool]

This was posted in the rules section, but I had to comment.

 

Ok Well I have a member who to all ends will argue with me on this, even though I'm GM. He placed a limitation on Persuasion, Restrainable. His reason was that because if someone covered his mouth, he can't persuade. I told him that was a given. He said that because powers aren't a given and need limitations to better describe how the power works, that the same goes for skills. I'm not going to allow it.

 

Basically he wont stop unless he gets a ruling saying that he can't do that.

 

So…all Interaction Skills are Restrainable?

 

I smell munchkin. I would strongly suggest the poster tell the player their playing styles are incompatible and that they should part ways. This is merely a sign of what is to come.

 

I Smell Munchkin - Detect Munchkin (5 Active Points), Extra Time (1 Turn; -1¼), Only From Second Hand Account of Activities (-¼) (2 Active Points

 

Or, the poster could rule that being able to communicate is a necessary tool to perform this Skill. You can do it gagged, but you suffer the 'lack of proper tools' penalty.

 

Or, the poster could allow him to take the Limitation but at -0 since it is 'not limiting' in his campaign.

[Steve]

Re: Persuasion Restrainable?

 

I have to admit, I've never seen anyone try that in any game I've played or GM'd.

 

The fact that he wouldn't accept a GM call that he was being unreasonable and demanded an appeal to a "higher authority" is an extremely childish approach to take.

 

Steve Long, the Supreme Court of the Hero System.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Persuasion Restrainable?

 

By that logic (term used very lightly) almost ANY skill could be considered restrainable. Not to mention things like running.

[Vondy]

Re: Persuasion Restrainable?

 

No. Just no. I'd say more, but... no.

[Vondy]

Re: Persuasion Restrainable?

 

The fact that he wouldn't accept a GM call that he was being unreasonable and demanded an appeal to a "higher authority" ...

 

 

Its perfidy, and the GM made a mistake by agreeing to his ridiculous demand and setting the precedent that there was a higher authority. he should have just said: "you did get a ruling that you can't do it - and if you can't live with it there's the door." Heck, Steve wrote this nigh universal norm into the rules repeatedly - that the GM has the final say - probably because, besides being painfully obvious, he didn't want his time wasted with stupid questions that fall under the heading of "GM Veto."

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Persuasion Restrainable?

 

Throw him out of the game. Publicly and nastily, if necessary.

 

The GM's word goes. The fact that the player won't accept the GM's word means he's not willing to play the game. The fact that it's so very munchkin makes it a whole lot worse, but that's not even the point; the point is that he's waiting for a "ruling," when the only "ruling" he needs is the GM saying no.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Persuasion Restrainable?

 

Tell him that's already factored into the cost of the Skill.

 

Or kick him out of the group. That's what I would do.

[archermoo]

Re: Persuasion Restrainable?

 

Gotta go with VDM on this one. Just...no.

[archermoo]

Re: Persuasion Restrainable?

 

That is absolutely' date=' unequivocally illegal.[/quote']

 

Steve, could you be a little more clear?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Persuasion Restrainable?

 

Yeah, don't hold back! Tell us how you really feel!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Persuasion Restrainable?

 

I think what annoys me the most about this kind of blatant munchkinism is that the player isn't even trying to get into the spirit of Roleplaying. This is just obviously an "I want to win" mentality.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Persuasion Restrainable?

 

The GM is not always right, however what the GM says, goes.

(And if he says enough stupid s**t, his players go, too.)

 

That said, this is some extreme munchkin-ism (defined as 'doing illegal things'), and the GM is very right in saying no to this. Clovis has his ruling from on high, as it were, and I'm curious about this guy's response to it.

[archermoo]

Re: Persuasion Restrainable?

 

The GM is not always right, however what the GM says, goes.

(And if he says enough stupid s**t, his players go, too.)

 

I'll agree with 2 of the 3 statements. Within the context of their game, the GM is indeed always right. Which is covered by what they say goes. It is also balanced by the fact that the players can walk at any time.

 

Hopefully the fact that the original questioner came to the boards to get his player an answer from "on high" won't have set a precident for the problematical player. "What do you mean a can't to {abusive thing}? If you want me to not do it you'll have to get Steve Long to tell me so!" Steve, while a cool guy, isn't the final authority on what is good to go in this guys game. The Ref for the game is.

 

The fact that Steve has neither the time (nor I'm guessing the inclination) to do it is another point...

[Trebuchet]

Re: Persuasion Restrainable?

 

Can I put "Not while sleeping: -1/2" on all my Martial Arts skills?

 

I see a lot of point savings from this approach. Let's hear it for munchkinism!

 

The correct answer is, of course, that Skills should never get Limitations.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Persuasion Restrainable?

 

The correct answer is' date=' of course, that Skills should never get Limitations.[/quote']

 

I wouldn't say never.

 

Focus is a good Limitation, especially in Fantasy games.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Persuasion Restrainable?

 

I wouldn't say never.

 

Focus is a good Limitation, especially in Fantasy games.

True. The difference there is that generally magic weapons and the like should be provided by the GM, not built as part of the character.

 

It's still a good reason to use to shut down this munchkin player.

[Comic]

Re: Persuasion Restrainable?

 

Point and laugh.

 

That's all you can do.

 

Point. Laugh.

 

Maybe roll on the floor a bit, giggling and holding your sides.

 

Throw out a few words to soften the shaming, like, "We only apply limitations to skills that cost 5 pts or more," or what-have-yous, out of pity, if you have to.

 

But ridicule is appropriate in this situation.

 

(Of course, I'd never condone doing it on boards. We have a code of conduct here.)

[JmOz]

Re: Persuasion Restrainable?

 

Can I put "Not while sleeping: -1/2" on all my Martial Arts skills?

 

I see a lot of point savings from this approach. Let's hear it for munchkinism!

 

The correct answer is, of course, that Skills should never get Limitations.

 

Go for it...watch how many dream sequences I come up with...

[JmOz]

Re: Persuasion Restrainable?

 

I wouldn't say never.

 

Focus is a good Limitation, especially in Fantasy games.

 

Also certain skills more than others, skill levels are an example, as a foci, maybe with burnout or charges make skill kits. CSL's/PSL's as part of weapons, or as extra time (I'm a really good aimer)

 

Background skills also

 

but for the most part: Skill with limitation...RED FLAG. Character will be reviewed more carefully

[JmOz]

Re: Persuasion Restrainable?

 

Point and laugh.

 

That's all you can do.

 

Point. Laugh.

 

Maybe roll on the floor a bit, giggling and holding your sides.

 

Throw out a few words to soften the shaming, like, "We only apply limitations to skills that cost 5 pts or more," or what-have-yous, out of pity, if you have to.

 

But ridicule is appropriate in this situation.

 

(Of course, I'd never condone doing it on boards. We have a code of conduct here.)

 

 

I apply them to 3 point skill levels (not CSL's) all the time

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Persuasion Restrainable?

 

Can I put "Not while sleeping: -1/2" on all my Martial Arts skills?

 

I see a lot of point savings from this approach. Let's hear it for munchkinism!

 

The correct answer is, of course, that Skills should never get Limitations.

 

So I CAN have "not while sleeping, -1/2" on all the powers in my EC?

 

I suggest the issue is not whether Skills should get Limitations.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Persuasion Restrainable?

 

Correct. The issue is not whether Skills should get Limitations. The issue is not even whether the item in question is unbelievably munchkiny. The issue is, when called on it and told no, the player insisted that the GM get a ruling. That, my friends, is deserving of ostracism and shunning; the player is not fit for polite company.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Persuasion Restrainable?

 

I apply them to 3 point skill levels (not CSL's) all the time

 

edit: nevermind. carry on.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Persuasion Restrainable?

 

So I CAN have "not while sleeping, -1/2" on all the powers in my EC?

 

I suggest the issue is not whether Skills should get Limitations.

No, the issues are can a player abuse the rules with Limitations on skills and should he be allowed to? Yes, and no.

 

There are undoubtedly legitimate applications for Limitations on some Skills. Let's just remember the First Law of Limitations: A Limitation which provides no limitation is worth no points. Most Skills require the ability to move freely and/or interact, and I think it's a reasonable assumption that that requirement is already accounted for in the costs. Hands tied behind your back? Your Climbing probably won't work. You can't see at all in the dark? Then you probably can't read the ancient inscription on the tomb's wall.

 

A player trying this sort of munchkin stunt in my campaign after I'd told him no would probably be disinvited from the game.

[JmOz]

Re: Persuasion Restrainable?

 

That's harsh, I would allow you to do those things, but there would be some serious penalties involved (probably -3 on the climbing, -5 on a PER roll for the reading, the reading I see as rubbin your hands on it to feel the grooves of the inscription)

 

but I do agree in spirit with you, and firmly on the GM Has spoken, now for me I like to know what rules I am changing so I would still like the official ruling so I knew I was ignoring it