Move-Through Broken?

[Willpower]

I just had a thought concerning the maneuver Move-Through. It works this way -V/5 OCV and does Str+(V/3) damage. Now this actually concerns ALL maneuvers that deal with velocity damage, but I first thought about it concerning Move-Through. The way velocity is determined is the real problem. Typically, if character performs a move-through on another being you get their movement speed, and use that to determine how much "V" is. This however is an inaccurate account of how fast a character is really going though. I was thinking of making a speedster with lower than standard movement, but higher than standard speed. This would make him travel at the same actual velocity, but be able to act more often.

 

I may not be explaining my point here very clear, but perhaps an example will clear it up. (Quickness has a speed of 12 and runs at 15" per round and times 8 noncombat multiplier. He has an actual combat velocity of 54 KM/H and an actual noncombat velocity of 432 KM/H. Tere Trax has a speed of 5 and runs at 20" per round and times 8 noncombat mutiplier. She has an actual combat velocity of 30 KM/H and an actual noncombat velocity of 240 KM/H. Quickness is actually almost twice as fast as Tera Trax. However, when figuring out how much either one would do with a move through, you use their personal movement speed during their phase. Their Speed characteristic is not considerred in figuring the damage. So Quickness would have -3 OCV and do Str+5d6 damage with a combat speed move through (-24 OCV and Str+40d6 noncombat), and Tera Trax would have -4 OCV and do Str+7d6 damage with a combat speed move through (-32 OCV and Str+53d6 noncombat). Even though, Quickness actually has more velocity, the way the system works Tera Trax has more velocity for the sake of the maneuver.

 

The problem with this is that it would end up being too complicated to have the PC decide on how fast they are moving and then figure that in with their Speed characteristic in order to figure out what their actual velcity is. But with keeping things the way they are, if you have two speedsters that both can travel at the same velocity, the one with the lower speed actually has a greater damage output from a single attack than one that has a higher speed. Sure the one with the higher speed can hit more often and would make them, more than likely do more overall damage, but if the slower one would be able to hurt some characters the faster one couldn't.

[Comic]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

Psst. Don't use noncombat velocity for move- combat maneuvers. It riles the semantics nuts.

 

(But don't tell the permissivists that I made that suggestion, or they'll think I think there's things the Hero System can't do!)

 

This point has been mentioned before, and even discussed at some length in some of the earlier editions. For a difference of (in your example) 2 DC's on a low CV maneuver, is it really worth worrying?

 

The maneuver is balanced for the costs. If you have a character you feel does too little damage on the maneuvers based on their movement speed, I recommend buying up some DCs of attack to be used only with movement maneuvers.

 

If you feel the lower speed character ought not suffer as much of a CV penalty due to lower speed, buy up some CSLs with move- maneuvers, is what I suggest.

 

See, although the Hero System can do anything, the real beauty is that for a few points more, it can do anything the way you feel is right.

[Willpower]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

Psst. Don't use noncombat velocity for move- combat maneuvers. It riles the semantics nuts.

 

(But don't tell the permissivists that I made that suggestion, or they'll think I think there's things the Hero System can't do!)

 

This point has been mentioned before, and even discussed at some length in some of the earlier editions. For a difference of (in your example) 2 DC's on a low CV maneuver, is it really worth worrying?

 

The maneuver is balanced for the costs. If you have a character you feel does too little damage on the maneuvers based on their movement speed, I recommend buying up some DCs of attack to be used only with movement maneuvers.

 

If you feel the lower speed character ought not suffer as much of a CV penalty due to lower speed, buy up some CSLs with move- maneuvers, is what I suggest.

 

See, although the Hero System can do anything, the real beauty is that for a few points more, it can do anything the way you feel is right.

 

OK, in the EXAMPLE their is only a difference of 2 DC, but when the example varies greatly then the varience changes quite a bit. And the point isn't that the slower character gets 2 more DC out of the maneuver. The point is the character that SHOULD have the greater attack based on velocity, since it is a velocity based maneuver, comes out with less damage instead of more. So even when comparing it this way, the difference is quite a bit more than 2 DC. I can go into further detail if necessary.

[Outsider]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

Yeah, it doesnt make sense. its because how fast a person actually runs isnt dependent only on how much Running they have, but also on their SPD stat. Normally in HERO you're supposed to buy what you want directly if there is a power that does it directly, rather than simulating what you want using some other power. Movement, however, is heavily dependent on SPD, even though there is a whole category of powers called 'movement powers'.

 

Another reason to divorce SPD from movement, in my book.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

I may not be explaining my point here very clear, but perhaps an example will clear it up. (Quickness has a speed of 12 and runs at 15" per round and times 8 noncombat multiplier. He has an actual combat velocity of 54 KM/H and an actual noncombat velocity of 432 KM/H. Tere Trax has a speed of 5 and runs at 20" per round and times 8 noncombat mutiplier. She has an actual combat velocity of 30 KM/H and an actual noncombat velocity of 240 KM/H. Quickness is actually almost twice as fast as Tera Trax. However, when figuring out how much either one would do with a move through, you use their personal movement speed during their phase. Their Speed characteristic is not considerred in figuring the damage. So Quickness would have -3 OCV and do Str+5d6 damage with a combat speed move through (-24 OCV and Str+40d6 noncombat), and Tera Trax would have -4 OCV and do Str+7d6 damage with a combat speed move through (-32 OCV and Str+53d6 noncombat). Even though, Quickness actually has more velocity, the way the system works Tera Trax has more velocity for the sake of the maneuver.

 

The problem with this is that it would end up being too complicated to have the PC decide on how fast they are moving and then figure that in with their Speed characteristic in order to figure out what their actual velcity is. But with keeping things the way they are, if you have two speedsters that both can travel at the same velocity, the one with the lower speed actually has a greater damage output from a single attack than one that has a higher speed. Sure the one with the higher speed can hit more often and would make them, more than likely do more overall damage, but if the slower one would be able to hurt some characters the faster one couldn't.

 

You can fix this (and open up a bunch more cans of worms) by chnaging the Movement rules to work on a movement per turn basis. I believe there are also optional tables for damage by actual velocity, rather than by Hero speed.

 

Once you fix that, have a look at Megascale Movement. A character with 6" Megascale (1" = 100 km) flight, and a 5 SPD, is moving at 900,000,000 kph and his Move Through adds 2d6 damage, since it's based on inches.

 

[bTW, I wouldn't worry a lot about those noncombat movement movethrough examples. Your OCV is so penalized that you're not going to hit, and if you did, the backlash damage should take you out anyway.]

 

I may be in the minority, but I don't see a lot of benefits in trying to create "more realistic" rules for humans capable of movement at the speed of sound. Buy a few dice of Hand Attack, only when using an attack that adds velocity-based damage, and call it a day.

[Willpower]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

Yeah, it doesnt make sense. its because how fast a person actually runs isnt dependent only on how much Running they have, but also on their SPD stat. Normally in HERO you're supposed to buy what you want directly if there is a power that does it directly, rather than simulating what you want using some other power. Movement, however, is heavily dependent on SPD, even though there is a whole category of powers called 'movement powers'.

 

Another reason to divorce SPD from movement, in my book.

 

How do you go about divorcing SPD from movement?

[Willpower]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

[bTW' date= I wouldn't worry a lot about those noncombat movement movethrough examples. Your OCV is so penalized that you're not going to hit, and if you did, the backlash damage should take you out anyway.]

 

Except this is just what happened in my game. A Player, playing an NPC named Lightning Lass, who I converted from a randomly rolled up Marvel Superheroes character did a noncombat move-through on Viperia. You would normally be right on everything, but the player rolled a 3, hitting Viperia, and doing TONS of Damage. Lightning Lass being converted from MSH isn't incredibly offensive. She has 23 Dex, 5 SPD, and 50 Str, and no levels. Hardly a real powerhouse for our game, where our Brick has 65 Str, and 25 Dex, and 6 Spd. Her one Schtick is she is incredibly invulnerable. (True Invulnerability at UnEarthly in MSH) Which I converted over to 35 PD, ED and 50% DR. Defensively she is just NASTY. Though she can be nickle and dimed, its hard to take her out with one hit. After the Move-Through, she only took 5 Stun, since she did in fact knock Viperia back. It also happened to knock Viperia out. It wouldn't have, had Viperia been fresh (It did 89 Stun to her and she has 90), but she had taken a few points of damage already.

[Comic]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

How do you go about divorcing SPD from movement?

Same process to prorate velocity applies generally.

 

A./ Find the character's SPD. Find their movement rate. Multiply. This gives movement/Turn.

 

B./ Take the movement/Turn and divide by a standard combat SPD. That gives your character's 'combat movement' rate, independent of their actual SPD.

 

To decide on a standard SPD for combat damage for your campaign can be a matter of balance. (Test your characters' CV and DC values for move-through and move-by for each of SPD 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 12 using the above B./ formula and decide which range of values you as a GM find most acceptable.) That SPD is your campaign's combat SPD. You can make this SPD a fraction (e.g. 3.5) if you like, since no actual actions or phases depend on it and it's only meaningful for this formula.

 

Should you use noncombat rates when deciding on campaign combat SPD? Since the odds of hitting are low, and the penalty is usually high, I wouldn't recommend it. In fact, I recommend for consistency sake treating NCBT speed as the base movement speed for determining Damage DCs, ignoring the NCBT multiple -- so 15" x32 is does no more damage than 15" or 15" x2, but still suffers the full CV penalty.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

It almost seems like you're saying Move-throughs should do More damage?

 

Don't think I've ever heard that before.

 

Did you add up the total amount of Move Through damage your guys could do in a Turn? If your idea of their velocity damage is based on their velocity per turn then you should consider how many dice each of them throw around per 12 seconds. Your high Speed guy's not at a disadvantage then.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

You would normally be right on everything' date=' but the player rolled a 3, hitting Viperia, and doing TONS of Damage.[/quote']

 

There is a point at which I, as a GM, would say "this has moved beyond even a 1 in 216 'incredible odds' chance of success to a 'simply can't be done; no need to roll' no chance at all of success.

 

In any case, it's important to remember that noncombat movement takes considerable time for aceleration (one phase for each noncombat multiple, as I recall), so a character should generally be able to note that someone is gearing up for a full NCM move into them before it happens.

 

When you're at OCV 0 with a -10 penalty for velocity, I'm inclined to say "no longer possible to target precisely enough to hit a normal sized human target".

[Outsider]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

How do you go about divorcing SPD from movement?

 

 

Double the number of inches of movement people start with. (A base character will now have 12" Running & 4" Swimming). This represents the number of inches that character can move per turn.

 

Halve the cost of movement powers. (Running costs 1 point per inch, swimming 1/2 point per inch, etc) and when people buy them, they're adding movement to their per turn rate.

 

Determine a character's movement per phase by dividing their inches of movement per turn by their SPD. Players are heavily encouraged to have their inches of movement per turn be evenly divisible by their SPD, so every phase their movement is the same. A SPD 4 character who didnt actually buy any extra Running would move 3" per phase, covering the same 12" per turn that a SPD 2 character who didnt buy any Running would. If you want to Run faster, buy Running!

 

What does this do to move throughs? The do STR+v per turn/6 instead of STR+v per phase/3. The OCV penalty becomes -1 per v per turn/10 instead of -1 per v per phase/5

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

Double the number of inches of movement people start with. (A base character will now have 12" Running & 4" Swimming). This represents the number of inches that character can move per turn.

 

Halve the cost of movement powers. (Running costs 1 point per inch, swimming 1/2 point per inch, etc) and when people buy them, they're adding movement to their per turn rate.

 

Determine a character's movement per phase by dividing their inches of movement per turn by their SPD. Players are heavily encouraged to have their inches of movement per turn be evenly divisible by their SPD, so every phase their movement is the same. A SPD 4 character who didnt actually buy any extra Running would move 3" per phase, covering the same 12" per turn that a SPD 2 character who didnt buy any Running would. If you want to Run faster, buy Running!

 

What does this do to move throughs? The do STR+v per turn/6 instead of STR+v per phase/3. The OCV penalty becomes -1 per v per turn/10 instead of -1 per v per phase/5

 

Of course, it's not perfect. That 4 SPD character will cover 8" with a half move each pahse, while the 2 SPD character only covers 6". That's a 1/3 increase. But it's not double, like the present system.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

I just had a thought concerning the maneuver Move-Through. It works this way -V/5 OCV and does Str+(V/3) damage. Now this actually concerns ALL maneuvers that deal with velocity damage, but I first thought about it concerning Move-Through. The way velocity is determined is the real problem. Typically, if character performs a move-through on another being you get their movement speed, and use that to determine how much "V" is. This however is an inaccurate account of how fast a character is really going though. I was thinking of making a speedster with lower than standard movement, but higher than standard speed. This would make him travel at the same actual velocity, but be able to act more often.

 

I may not be explaining my point here very clear, but perhaps an example will clear it up. (Quickness has a speed of 12 and runs at 15" per round and times 8 noncombat multiplier. He has an actual combat velocity of 54 KM/H and an actual noncombat velocity of 432 KM/H. Tere Trax has a speed of 5 and runs at 20" per round and times 8 noncombat mutiplier. She has an actual combat velocity of 30 KM/H and an actual noncombat velocity of 240 KM/H. Quickness is actually almost twice as fast as Tera Trax. However, when figuring out how much either one would do with a move through, you use their personal movement speed during their phase. Their Speed characteristic is not considerred in figuring the damage. So Quickness would have -3 OCV and do Str+5d6 damage with a combat speed move through (-24 OCV and Str+40d6 noncombat), and Tera Trax would have -4 OCV and do Str+7d6 damage with a combat speed move through (-32 OCV and Str+53d6 noncombat). Even though, Quickness actually has more velocity, the way the system works Tera Trax has more velocity for the sake of the maneuver.

 

The problem with this is that it would end up being too complicated to have the PC decide on how fast they are moving and then figure that in with their Speed characteristic in order to figure out what their actual velcity is. But with keeping things the way they are, if you have two speedsters that both can travel at the same velocity, the one with the lower speed actually has a greater damage output from a single attack than one that has a higher speed. Sure the one with the higher speed can hit more often and would make them, more than likely do more overall damage, but if the slower one would be able to hurt some characters the faster one couldn't.

 

 

Most of your concerns can be addressed by using the optional Velocity Factor rules.

 

Here is a suite of powers that have their use highlighted in the notes. They assume a character with a speed of 6.

 

80 Hyper-Multipower: Higgs-Boson (Mass & Kinetic Powers), 120-point reserve, all slots OIHID * (-1/4), All Powers in Multipower are Affected by Adjustment Powers as if they were in an Elemental Control !! (-1/4) [Notes: Can use ANY 2 Ultra Slots in Multipower at same time (All are 60 active points).]

 

3u 4) Hyper-Movement I: Teleportation 10", No Relative Velocity, Position Shift, x2 Increased Mass, Safe Blind Teleport (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4); Must Pass Through Intervening Space (-1/4) [Notes: Can be used to immediately stop after moving at megascale speeds.] - END=2

 

4u 5) Hyper-Movement II (Variable Flight): Flight 15", Variable Advantage (+1/2 Advantages; Combat Acceleration/Deceleration (+1/4), IPE Hearing (+1/4), MegaScale 1" = 1 or 10 km (+1/4 or +1/2), No Turn Mode (+1/4), Reduced End (+1/4 or +1/2), Sideways Maneuverability Half Or Full Velocity (+1/4 or +1/2), Usable By Other (+1/4), Usable As Gliding, Running or Swimmng (+1/4).; +1) [Notes: Combat Velocity ~34 mph (VF=5). MegaScale Minimum Velocity = 500" (~1125 mph, VF=16), Absolute Maximum = 75,000" (~168,750 MPH, ~Mach 225, ~94 Miles/phase)(@6 End/phase for about 1 minute), No Turn Mode Sustainable Maximum ~Mach 8, Absolute Sustainable Maximum ~Mach 75 (@2 End/phase could circle the Equator in < 10 minutes).] - END=6

 

4u 6) Hyper-Movement III (Straight Flight): Flight 20", x32 Noncombat [Notes: Combat Velocity of ~45 mph (VF=6), Non-Combat Velocity of ~1440 mph (VF=16): Bridges gap between Trick Flight's Combat maximum and Megascale minimum. Move By Damage is STR/2 + (VF)d6. Move Through OCV penalty is -(VF) and Damage is STR + (VF)d6. The Velocity Factor value (5ER pg 436) is equal to the (relative) Velocity Based DCV value (5ER page 364).] - END=6

 

3u 7) Hyper-Movement IV (Leaping): Leaping +28" (3"/36" forward, 1 1/2"/18" upward) (Accurate), Combat Acceleration/Deceleration (+1/4), Usable By Other (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4); No Noncombat Movement (-1/4) [Notes: Combat Velocity ~ 81 mph, VF of 8.] - END=2

 

3u 8) Hyper-Movement V (Running): Running +30" (36" total); no Noncombat movement (-1/4) [Notes: Running has No Turn Mode by default.] - END=6

 

3u 9) Hyper-Kinesis I (Inertial Shield): Force Wall (12 PD/12 ED); No Range (-1/2) [Notes: Special Effect is like a Personal Force Field. Defenses from Combat Luck do not get added IF takes a hit on purpose (protecting another, showing off, etc..). Can only attack with Hyper-Uppercut (Indirect) when using Force Wall. Effectively functions as 12" of Knockback Resistance. Costs END to use EVERY phase.] - END=6

 

3u 12) Hyper-Strike I (Variable): Hand-To-Hand Attack +6d6, (Maximum of 30 STR can be combined with HA; +0), Variable Advantage (+1/2 Advantages; Affects Desolidified, AOE 1 Hex (Can be Blocked but not Dodged), Armor Piercing, Autofire x5, Penetrating; +1); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) [Notes: Haymaker adds +4 DC. Move By subtracts -3 DC's (1/2 STR 30) and adds +1 DC/10". Move Through adds +1 DC/6". Replace bonus for movement with VF/2 if using those optional rules. Move By Damage: (20"/VF=6, 11d6/12d6), (15"/VF=5, 10d6/11d6), (36"/VF=8, 12d6/13d6) . Move Through Damage: (15d6/15d6), (14d6/14d6), (18d6/16d6). Cannot combine Autofire with other manuevers. Each shot costs 9 END per shot w/STR 30] - END=6

 

3u 13) Hyper-Strike II (Uppercut): Hand-To-Hand Attack +6d6, (Maximum of 30 STR can be combined with HA; +0), Indirect (Same origin, always fired away from attacker; Cannot Be Blocked; +1/4), Double Knockback (+3/4); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) [Notes: Indirect allows this attack to be used with Hyper-Kinesis I (Force Wall).] - END=6

[Willpower]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

It almost seems like you're saying Move-throughs should do More damage?

 

Don't think I've ever heard that before.

 

Did you add up the total amount of Move Through damage your guys could do in a Turn? If your idea of their velocity damage is based on their velocity per turn then you should consider how many dice each of them throw around per 12 seconds. Your high Speed guy's not at a disadvantage then.

 

No, that is not what I am saying at all. What I am saying is that if two characters move at the same velocity per turn, but one has a higher SPD than the other, the one with the higher SPD will actually do less damage even though both characters move at the same speed. This seems wrong to me. I already acknowledged that the one with the higher SPD may do more damage due to more attacks per round, but they will not do as much with a single attack. This becomes more of a problem when the one with the lower SPD is actually slower than the one with the higher SPD, but still does more damage because they move more inches in the fewer rounds they do go. This allows them to be able to do damage based on velocity to those that the faster one cannot, simply beause they paid LESS points for something.

[Willpower]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

There is a point at which I, as a GM, would say "this has moved beyond even a 1 in 216 'incredible odds' chance of success to a 'simply can't be done; no need to roll' no chance at all of success.

 

In any case, it's important to remember that noncombat movement takes considerable time for aceleration (one phase for each noncombat multiple, as I recall), so a character should generally be able to note that someone is gearing up for a full NCM move into them before it happens.

 

When you're at OCV 0 with a -10 penalty for velocity, I'm inclined to say "no longer possible to target precisely enough to hit a normal sized human target".

 

Yeah well, I play the game based on the rules, and according to those a 3 on 3d6 always hits. So that is how I play it. I don't simply disallow actions because they are hard. As for building up speed, that did happen. Lightning Lass had been ejected from the Jet before it crashed and was chasing it as fast as she could for several rounds, before Viperia started chasing after the other members of the group. So the attack was still unseen.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

....This becomes more of a problem when the one with the lower SPD is actually slower than the one with the higher SPD' date=' but still does more damage because they move more inches in the fewer rounds they do go. This allows them to be able to do damage based on velocity to those that the faster one cannot, simply beause they paid LESS points for something.[/quote']

 

Let me repeat, most of your concerns can be addressed by using the optional Velocity Factor rules on pg 436 of 5ER.

[Greywind]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

Yeah well' date=' I play the game based on the rules, and according to those a 3 on 3d6 always hits. So that is how I play it. I don't simply disallow actions because they are hard. As for building up speed, that did happen. Lightning Lass had been ejected from the Jet before it crashed and was chasing it as fast as she could for several rounds, before Viperia started chasing after the other members of the group. So the attack was still unseen.[/quote']

Which, all in all, adds to the overall drama of the scene. Not to mention the satisfaction of the player.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

what's really broken about move-throughs is cheap movement.

 

 

It's been fairly established that a die of normal damage should cost 5 active points (or more, if you're using a non-standard power like TK or the like)

 

If you use move throughs (or passing strike) and you're using something like gliding for movement, then you're getting a die of normal damage for 3 points.

 

So, if you've got a nice handy 30 point movement multipower, you can get one slot with 15" of flight to gain some altitude (or even cheaper, just get 30" of superleap) and then 30" of gliding in another slot and drill people for 10d6 + STR damage.

 

A simple workaround would be to adjust damage to 1d6/6 active points in movement power. So, a running or flying move through would be unaffected. A leaping or gliding move through would be nerfed somewhat.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

While I like Comic's standardized SPD for move-throughs/move-bys, you could always simply buy a HA Only When Using a Move-through or Move-by.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

MT isn’t broken but can be broken.

 

Mind you, it can also be fixed, if you manage to break it.

 

MT for a high SPD character with a relatively low movement does an unrealistically low damage for their m.p.h. velocity.

 

So add in a few extra Hand Attack dice, linked to their running, to oomph up the damage.

 

I’ve tried to make stuff work on ‘per turn’ movement rates, and whilst it is doable, it is a far bigger change than just building the character you want in the first place.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

Yeah well' date=' I play the game based on the rules, and according to those a 3 on 3d6 always hits. So that is how I play it. I don't simply disallow actions because they are hard. As for building up speed, that did happen. Lightning Lass had been ejected from the Jet before it crashed and was chasing it as fast as she could for several rounds, before Viperia started chasing after the other members of the group. So the attack was still unseen.[/quote']

 

Cite me the page that says "no matter how absurdly impossible the task, a roll of 3 will always succeed".

 

In any case, if the character could get by the acceleration requirements, be unperceived despite the use of a power which is visible to three sense groups (unless the character paid for IPE, of course), navigate the turn mode requirements to be able to aim at a single target, and make a successful to hit roll with the noncombat base OCV of 0 and the penalties imposed by noncombat velocity for a Move Through, I'd be inclined to allow them the benefits of that Move Through.

 

It's not like that's going to happen very often. Just rolling that 3 to hit (which, with an OCV of 0, is required if the defender has a DCV of 8, even if we ignore velocity penalties) will happen less than 1/2% of the situations when all the other criteria are met. And meeting those other criteria will be pretty scarce in and of itself.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

what's really broken about move-throughs is cheap movement.

 

 

It's been fairly established that a die of normal damage should cost 5 active points (or more, if you're using a non-standard power like TK or the like)

 

If you use move throughs (or passing strike) and you're using something like gliding for movement, then you're getting a die of normal damage for 3 points.

 

So, if you've got a nice handy 30 point movement multipower, you can get one slot with 15" of flight to gain some altitude (or even cheaper, just get 30" of superleap) and then 30" of gliding in another slot and drill people for 10d6 + STR damage.

 

A simple workaround would be to adjust damage to 1d6/6 active points in movement power. So, a running or flying move through would be unaffected. A leaping or gliding move through would be nerfed somewhat.

 

This is true, but consider that movement can only be converted to damage if the hero is willing to potentially injure himself. Call that a -½ Limitation on the extra DC, and the 3 pts per DC isn't so bad.

 

While I agree that on the surface the high SPD low-movement character gets penalized in the move through damage, he has the advantage of having a high SPD. Look at it from the low-SPD character's standpoint: "we are moving at the same velocity, but the high-SPD guy gets to act more often than me!" Logically you are completely correct that the same velocity should do the same damage, but sometimes to make a build fit the conception you have to tack on a power or limitation to get the right feel. It may be a little kludgy sometimes, but at least HERO gives you option of a workaround.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

While I agree that on the surface the high SPD low-movement character gets penalized in the move through damage' date=' [i']he has the advantage of having a high SPD[/i]. Look at it from the low-SPD character's standpoint: "we are moving at the same velocity, but the high-SPD guy gets to act more often than me!" Logically you are completely correct that the same velocity should do the same damage, but sometimes to make a build fit the conception you have to tack on a power or limitation to get the right feel. It may be a little kludgy sometimes, but at least HERO gives you option of a workaround.

 

Viewed from another angle, if we have a 3 SPD and a 6 SPD character moving at the same velocity, the 3 SPD character spent twice as much on his movement as the 6 SPD character did.

 

Let's assume the 3 SPD character has 30" of Flight and the 6 SPD character has 15" of flight. Otherwise, they are identical (15" flight and +3 SPD cost the same).

 

It seems to me the only advantage the 3 SPD character has received for his 30 points is the ability to add twice as much velocity-based damage (at twice as much velocity-based penalties) as the 6 SPD character. They noth get to move 90" per turn, at the cost of 18 END per turn. The 6 SPD character gets to move 48" in half moves, a little more than the 3 SPD character's 45". The 6 SPD character gets twice as many opportunities to use a velocity-based attack (or any other attack). It seems to me that the 6 SPD character is not really suffering by comparison.

 

All too often, too much realism spoils the game balance.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

Viewed from another angle, if we have a 3 SPD and a 6 SPD character moving at the same velocity, the 3 SPD character spent twice as much on his movement as the 6 SPD character did.

 

Let's assume the 3 SPD character has 30" of Flight and the 6 SPD character has 15" of flight. Otherwise, they are identical (15" flight and +3 SPD cost the same).

 

It seems to me the only advantage the 3 SPD character has received for his 30 points is the ability to add twice as much velocity-based damage (at twice as much velocity-based penalties) as the 6 SPD character. They noth get to move 90" per turn, at the cost of 18 END per turn. The 6 SPD character gets to move 48" in half moves, a little more than the 3 SPD character's 45". The 6 SPD character gets twice as many opportunities to use a velocity-based attack (or any other attack). It seems to me that the 6 SPD character is not really suffering by comparison.

 

All too often, too much realism spoils the game balance.

 

Good point. I had neglected the low-SPD character's extra inches of movement. That said, in my experience, a high-SPD is significantly more useful than just extra movement.

 

But your best point: too much realism spoils the game. Repped.

[Comic]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

I've only once had a character do a noncombat speed movethrough.

 

She was the highspeed flyer, (towing the lowspeeders behind her as they flew/glided/were carried) pursuing a jet carrying Eurostar (only), who were on their way to join forces with Professor Muerte.

 

The jet set down. This was a low power team. They had no hope of defeating Eurostar head-on.

 

And so she cut loose the rest of the team, and crashed into the aircraft before Eurostar deplaned, while it was still moving on the ground.

 

She took only one Stun over Con through her pushed FF. And was still moving at noncombat speed into the South American jungle.

 

The rest of the team had an interesting combat with the one member of Eurostar who was back on his feet by the time they got there. And then they went on to have an interesting combat with Muerte's forces. Several days later their search found the still unconscious speedster in a tree, miles from the landing strip.

 

It was a heroic sacrifice that made the difference between certain defeat and possible victory, was dramatic and exciting, and took a PC out of the action in time to make a run to the store for snacks.

 

And as it turns out, the dice of move-through damage didn't matter at all. The GM ruled the plane was a structure, used wall damage (5 DEF, 4 Body/Hex) to determine the maximum she could inflict on herself. So the flyer punctured one side of the fuselage going in (taking 9d6), one side going out (taking 9d6), and ignited the fuel tanks (taking 15d6 explosion). If not for the explosion, the team would have had to fight Eurostar head on.