lets make this work: Instant Change

[JmOz]

OK, everyone, I have a problem with the current way to do instant change, put bluntly it is not built right. The problem is

 

A) It's a 1/2 phase combat action

It can be used on others

C) It's ranged

 

 

NOw the second & third problem is easy to fix (Self-only limitation) but the first one, well...

 

Anyways, here is my build, some thoughts?

 

Instant Change: Cosmetic Transform 2d6, Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action to reset; +1/2) (15 Active Points); Limited Target: Worn Clothes ([Very Limited]; -1), No Range (-1/2)

 

Total cost 6 points

 

Now I am questioning the no range as double dipping...

[Comic]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

I'd say you're not double-dipping at all, if anything you're not dipping enough.

 

No Range still allows adjacent targets, and adjacent targets can still wear clothes, so unless you mean to change the clothes of your opponents with this power, you haven't limited it enough to get classic Instant Change.

 

Also, you haven't specified 'Transform only to specific costume or back to clothes worn when last changed', which I believe you mean, since it's how Instant Change originally worked?

 

All in all, a pretty good point, and a pretty good solution proposed.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

Personally, I like to think I've got an easier solution... I just grandfather in the old one.

 

But not bad at putting it together with the current rules... I just miss the old version. No particular reason it *can't* be grandfathered in either, just a matter of folks streamlining things just a *smidge* more than was strictly necessary, I think.

[JmOz]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

I'd say you're not double-dipping at all, if anything you're not dipping enough.

 

No Range still allows adjacent targets, and adjacent targets can still wear clothes, so unless you mean to change the clothes of your opponents with this power, you haven't limited it enough to get classic Instant Change.

 

Also, you haven't specified 'Transform only to specific costume or back to clothes worn when last changed', which I believe you mean, since it's how Instant Change originally worked?

 

All in all, a pretty good point, and a pretty good solution proposed.

 

I'll think on the limitations some more, you bring up a good point. Irronicaly another -1/2 "Self only" would bring the cost to 5 points...

 

The second part, base level transform only permits you to transform something into one other thing (Costume), the build assumes the "reversible" form of transform, where the method of healing is resetting the trigger (Opposed to the recovery method), I guess a case could be made that this is an extremly limited version of what it transforms into, but I tend to think of the difference as a -/+0

[JmOz]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

Personally, I like to think I've got an easier solution... I just grandfather in the old one.

 

But not bad at putting it together with the current rules... I just miss the old version. No particular reason it *can't* be grandfathered in either, just a matter of folks streamlining things just a *smidge* more than was strictly necessary, I think.

 

I would actualy have prefered the old method myself, same with a only minorly tweeked regeneration (Adding the healing adders)

[Tech]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

Personally, I like to think I've got an easier solution... I just grandfather in the old one.

 

But not bad at putting it together with the current rules... I just miss the old version. No particular reason it *can't* be grandfathered in either, just a matter of folks streamlining things just a *smidge* more than was strictly necessary, I think.

 

I use the old Instant Change. There are a few heroes in the campaign I'm in who use powered armor (in the vein of Iron Man and not similar but you get the idea) and have it built in to change to their foci armor instantly. I'm not going into how they do it as that's not my point. One character has a pretty big suit of armor, coming close to 8 feet high or so with a good deal of body, far more than clothes.

 

As currently written up in the 5th (I don't have 5th revised), the power Instant Change fails to perform. No mere 2d6 Cosmetic Transform is going to cover the transformation into the big suit, i.e. 12 body rolled is twice 6 body max that can be transformed, when that suit has 18 Body. The write-up example, which goes into detail as to how it should be built but doesn't mention Trigger (unlike JmOz in his example which is nicely written up) and it should be considered for free to be a zero-phase action.

 

The original power has been changed into a Transform power and seems to be that it only works with clothing, based on the Power Example given. Also, based on the wording, it can't work with anything but clothing. I checked the 1st and 2nd edition of Champions of how Instant Change worked & was worded. First edition Instant Change states "This power allows a character to instantly change from secret identity to superhero form." The 2nd edition is likewise worded that same way, allowing the instant change to a powered suit and back.

 

I much prefer a separate power called Instant Change, instead of a convoluted version incompletely written up using Transform.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

Instant Change: Cosmetic Transform 2d6' date=' Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action to reset; +1/2) (15 Active Points); Limited Target: Worn Clothes ([Very Limited']; -1), No Range (-1/2)

 

Total cost 6 points

 

Now I am questioning the no range as double dipping...

 

I'd say that the ability to only change clothing worn by the user into other clothing worn by the user is very limited indeed, so much so that a -2 limitation may be appropriate. Getting there with Limited Target: Worn Clothes ([Very Limited]; -1), No Range (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2) seems reasonable.

 

I think "no range" should be added to any power that would normally have range and loses its ability to act at range.

[Force]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

This is what happens when you take something simple (and not broken) and make it complicated (and broken).

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

I'm personally more than okay with the way the cosmetic transform works, especially on powered armor builds. The player wants to shave 1/4 limitation or more on all his powers by buying them OIHD or some such, but then wants to be able to instantly change form very cheaply. This IMO makes that 1/4 limitation not actually limiting, and as a munchkin myself, I strongly suspect that's exactly the point. If you have a suit of armor thats saving you 50 points then you have limited options as far as I'm concerned.

 

One, your instant change is expensive. It's trying to change a lot of points instantly, and that ain't cheap.

 

Two, it ain't instant.

 

 

Three, it don't save you a ridiculous amount of points.

 

Pick one.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

On the Transform: I would say, if you're not using it in combat against a target who is trying to resist, then it's not a combat action.

 

That said, the cost structure for Shapeshift more closely represents the effect of the original Instant Change, except that Shapeshift costs END. But if you're willing to use it, Shapeshift vs. Sight Group, 0 END Cost, Clothes Only (-1) ought to do it. Add a Limitation if you can only shift between, say, two suits of clothing (your superhero costume and your civilian clothes you were wearing).

 

If your costume is your armor, I see no reason why activating your Powers (a la OIHID) couldn't instantly change you from your normal ID to your hero ID. If you actually had OIHID, then it would take a full Phase to switch from normal to superhero ID, but if not then it's whatever it normally takes (0 Phase to activate most Powers).

[ghost-angel]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

I always saw Instant Change mostly a redundant concept. For the majority of characters simply activating their powers, as Chris Goodwin pointed out, is the "instant change" in and of itself.

 

For the few who do need it, or those who can morph their clothes or instantly shift their clothes to something else the Transform Instant Change models it nicely. And - does say in the description in 5ER that this would be a good example of "when to break the rules for cool/good effect" and ignore the 1/2 Phase Attack Action aspect.

[Thaingar]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

I just have to throw in another vote for grandfathering in the old Instant Change power. I also still use the old Regeneration power in my campaigns.

 

I have to comment on Nekkidcarpenter's post about Instant Change negating the value of an Only In Hero Identity limitation ... if the character has a secret identity, then the limitation is valid regardless of how long it takes to change into hero identity. On the other hand, if the character does not have a secret identity to maintain, then Instant Change might well negate the value of an Only In Hero Identity limitation.

[Sean Waters]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

I wonder how much Body a sset of normal clothes has? The 2d6 transform suggests a need to transform 3 Body, but I doubt whether many 'normal' clothes or even costumes have any more than one (I've just been through and destroyed my entire wardrobbe, and my clonclusion is that once something STARTS tearing it is really no effort at all. you could save some points by making it 1d6. You could save a few more by making it all-or-nothing: presumably you KNOW how much Body the clothes have so that shouldn't be a problem.

 

As to the question you asked, in the build you created, I would not buy 'no range', I'd by 'self only'. It is the same point total/limitation, but works a little differently. Arguably, self only and 'no range' are not mutually exclusive, but I would look at you askance if you tried it.

 

The 'double dipping' question may, of course, have come from the 'limtied group' limitation.

 

Personally that limitation makes no real sense to me, and building this power as a 'general' power makes no sense either - I'd need to know HOW you go about changing the clothes. If it is just a single set of clothes that can change into anything, that indicates one build, whereas if you have the power to influence the shape and colour of cotton, that would be a slightly different one. In either case it would make little sense to limit the power to 'self only'. On the other hand if your change of clothes was part of your shapeshift power and that is just loose skin (yeuch) then it would. mind you, if you had shapeshift then you might not need instant change anyway.

 

I am not sure that this is a power that is easily built as a general template. Well, it can, but it is probably better not to. Mind you, the same might be said of the old instant change power...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

I just have to throw in another vote for grandfathering in the old Instant Change power. I also still use the old Regeneration power in my campaigns.

 

I have to comment on Nekkidcarpenter's post about Instant Change negating the value of an Only In Hero Identity limitation ... if the character has a secret identity, then the limitation is valid regardless of how long it takes to change into hero identity. On the other hand, if the character does not have a secret identity to maintain, then Instant Change might well negate the value of an Only In Hero Identity limitation.

 

The character already got points for Secret ID. Why should he get more points for not having his powers in Secret ID? That's sometimes an advantage ("Come on, Clark, we're all going to the blood drive!") when trying to maintain a secret ID.

 

I would not say Instant Change negates the limitation of OIHID, however there must be some restriction to the hero's ability to change into HID. So I would not allow Iron Man to take OIHID for his armor powers, and Instant Change to have the armor materialize around him. His only restriction is time and access to the armor. I would allow Don Blake/Thor to take OIHID and Instant Change - take away the walking stick/hammer, and he can't change/changes back. I would also allow Billy Batson/Captain Marvel to have OIHID and Instant Change - if Billy can't speak, or Cap is somehow tricked or forced to "Tell me the name of the Wizard", OIHID becomes quite restrictive.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

I use the old Instant Change. There are a few heroes in the campaign I'm in who use powered armor (in the vein of Iron Man and not similar but you get the idea) and have it built in to change to their foci armor instantly. I'm not going into how they do it as that's not my point. One character has a pretty big suit of armor' date=' coming close to 8 feet high or so with a good deal of body, far more than clothes. [/quote']

 

You're not supposed to be able to use Instant Change to pop in and out of foci ... did you buy it as Only In Hero ID?

[Tech]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

You're not supposed to be able to use Instant Change to pop in and out of foci ... did you buy it as Only In Hero ID?

 

First, I don't want to get off-topic of JmOz's point. However, to reply to CrosshairCollie, I am curious where in the rules is it stated what you mentioned? I can go into detail as to the justification of allowing the Instant Change and they are good reasons. Again, if 5th ed Revised is quoted, I don't have it.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

First' date=' I don't want to get off-topic of JmOz's point. However, to reply to CrosshairCollie, I am curious where in the rules is it stated what you mentioned? I can go into detail as to the justification of allowing the Instant Change and they are good reasons. Again, if 5th ed Revised is quoted, I don't have it.[/quote']

 

Neither do I.

 

Simply put, if a character can pop in and out of his OIF Power Armor, eliminating the fact that he's no longer limited by it being a Focus (no time to put on/take off, no risk of being separated from it), it's not worth as big a limitation. Basic foundation of the HERO System; a limitation that doesn't limit isn't a limitation.

[JmOz]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

Neither do I.

 

Simply put, if a character can pop in and out of his OIF Power Armor, eliminating the fact that he's no longer limited by it being a Focus (no time to put on/take off, no risk of being separated from it), it's not worth as big a limitation. Basic foundation of the HERO System; a limitation that doesn't limit isn't a limitation.

 

However the instant transformation is not in itself proof of the foci not being valid

 

Ex. A characters who power armor is controled by a bracelet, it ports in when he presses a button on his watch, if the armor is taken away the watch control goes with it, preventing him from transforming until he gets it back, this follows the mandate of the foci limitation

[Trebuchet]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

I have some problems with unrestricted Instant Change and OIHID or Focus. There needs to be some balance between the ability to instantly change into Hero ID and the cost savings from OIHID and/or Focus. I suppose the best way is to put Limitations on the Instant Change that require certain conditions to Instant Change; perhaps something requiring the Focus to be nearby. Another option is to halve the value of the OIHID or Focus Limitation.

[GAZZA]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

As currently written up in the 5th (I don't have 5th revised)' date=' the power Instant Change fails to perform. No mere 2d6 Cosmetic Transform is going to cover the transformation into the big suit, i.e. 12 body rolled is twice 6 body max that can be transformed, when that suit has 18 Body.[/quote']

See, I'm curious. 18 BODY? Presumably the suit is a Focus of some sort. Foci have DEF, sure, but they don't have BODY. Where do you get the number?

 

I can see where you'd have BODY if you built it as a Vehicle or something, but if you're using Instant Change to instantly get into your Mecha, then you're using it in a fashion somewhat different to that which was originally intended.

[Tech]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

However the instant transformation is not in itself proof of the foci not being valid

 

Ex. A characters who power armor is controled by a bracelet, it ports in when he presses a button on his watch, if the armor is taken away the watch control goes with it, preventing him from transforming until he gets it back, this follows the mandate of the foci limitation

 

Exactly. Instant Change doesn't negate the foci limitation but merely allows the hero to change instantly into the armor. The concept of using Instant Change as a viable way to overcome the foci limitation just doesn't happen in our campaign. There are so many cases where the armor has been damaged and/or made useless, as well as putting the hero in even greater danger because of the powered armor that I see no problem in allowing the Instant Change. A foci is still a foci, regardless of how quickly you get to it; it remains the fault or glory of a GM to forget or use that limitation against the player's character. One campaign may not use OIHID because the campaign doesn't allow for such a concept whereas another may require OIHID; it depends on the campaign and the GM to use limitations that have been granted to characters.

 

GAZZA, the 18 BODY is how much body the powered armor I referenced has. My mistake for not mentioning that.

[GAZZA]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

GAZZA' date=' the 18 BODY is how much body the powered armor I referenced has. My mistake for not mentioning that. [/quote']

I meant: how did you calculate that it had 18 BODY? Foci normally don't have any BODY, just DEF.

[Oruncrest]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

 

Neither do I.

 

Simply put, if a character can pop in and out of his OIF Power Armor, eliminating the fact that he's no longer limited by it being a Focus (no time to put on/take off, no risk of being separated from it), it's not worth as big a limitation. Basic foundation of the HERO System; a limitation that doesn't limit isn't a limitation.

 

However the instant transformation is not in itself proof of the foci not being valid

 

Ex. A characters who power armor is controled by a bracelet, it ports in when he presses a button on his watch, if the armor is taken away the watch control goes with it, preventing him from transforming until he gets it back, this follows the mandate of the foci limitation

 

That's because you altered the Instant Change power (giving it the focus and gestures limitations). CC's talking about a straight Instant Change. No Foci. No Gestures. No Incantations. No restrictions. Would you allow a Power Armor focus to be instantly summoned with no restrictions for the same bonus that another Power Armor wearer would get for using the watch you mentioned earlier in your campaign?

[JmOz]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

As long as if the armor is taken away from the character he could not use instant change to resummon it, then yes. With the understanding that there is a difference between removing the armor and unsummoning it, if the armor was unsummened then he could resummon it, if it was removed then no.

[ghost-angel]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

Focus: bracers that, when activated, expand and cover the wearer in powered armor.

 

Instant Change: Activating the Bracers.

 

Extraneous Concept: Instant Change, activating the bracers should not require a second power.

 

--

Focus: Armor sitting in a transporter, waiting for the button on our hero's wristwatch to be pressed, thereby summoning it around him.

 

Instant Change: summoning the armor by pressing the button on the wristwatch.

 

Extraneous Concept: Instant Change. A second power should not be required to activate another power.

 

----

Instant Change and Focus aren't so much mutually exclusive as completely redundant.

 

I always thought the "Instant Change" Power was completely unnecessary.

Activating your armor, Saying the Power Word, shapeshifting into BeastGuy, activating your Fire Powers....

 

All these have the Instant Change concept built right into them. Turning your powers on is all that's needed. They might or might not use "Focus," "Only In Hero ID," "Multiform," "ShapeShift," etc...

 

Now, your powers are always active, you don't need to do anything to use them. But if you want to look cool you gotta jump into that phone booth and switch from the business suit to the Superman threads...

 

Well, you know - Instant Change fits the bill there. You're "instantly changing from one costume to another" (or one set of clothes to another).

 

Transform: These Clothes Into Those Clothes.

Technically, by the rules of Transform that's a 1/2 Phase Attack Action to "Attack your own clothes" (not you, so you're not breaking the can't use Transform on yourself rule, your clothes).

Seems silly don't it.

 

Meh, as long as it's just the clothes your wearing, call it a 0-Phase Action and be done with it.

 

Does ANYONE follow all the rules to the letter? Even Steve Long doesn't do that. There's nothing to fix. just play.