New Advangtage: Always Hits

[CTaylor]

ALWAYS HITS: A power with this advantage requires no to hit roll, it always lands on the target. Powers bought with Always Hits do no Body damage by default (but can be bought to do Body damage with the advantage Does Body). Each power purchased with Always Hits must have a way that the victims can avoid being hit. For example, a Magical Bolt might always land unless the character has silver on them, or a magnetic charge might always hit unless the character is wearing no metal whatsoever. The GM must approve all such powers, as this can be a very potent advantage.

 

Always hits still suffers from the normal restrictions of the power it is bought for, if it is bought on a mental power, then it still requires Line of Sight, if it does stun damage, it will have no effect on an automoton that takes no stun, if it is bought on a normal energy blast, it has its normal range and will not strike a target that is completely concealed behind a barrier. Always Hits is not Indirect, it does not ignore barriers or line of sight. Normal defenses still apply, and when the character is hit, hit locations are determined (if any) and defenses apply as usual. This can be a very dangerous power if bought with certain advantages, such as NND and Autofire. Powers with this advantage are considered special attacks - thus autofire and Reduced END are increased in cost.

 

EXAMPLE: Poignard, lovely ballerina turned superheroine, can throw light-daggers at her targets, that never miss! However, they have no effect on soulless constructs and robots. If her target ducks behind a wall or is too far away, the attack misses as well, but otherwise they are absolutely unerring in their accuracy.

 

Always Hits: +1 Advantage

 

This would have a hefty stop sign next to it in the rules, but seems like a reasonable construct, an analogue to No Normal Defense.

[Comic]

Re: New Advangtage: Always Hits

 

Seems low, at +1. I'd peg it around +2, on a purely subjective basis.

 

Not being hit is an important defense, and many people invest quite a lot of points into the not beingness of hits upon themselves. Offsetting all of that investment seems like more than merely +1.

 

For comparison, AoE attacks with +1 allow dive for cover, and cover, and force walls as full or partial protection. Granted, they hit multiple targets, but they're still restricted by range, and this sounds like something that also grants extra range, too.

[Trebuchet]

Re: New Advangtage: Always Hits

 

This would be on par with creating an Advantage called "Always Knocks Out Opponent." It would be unbalancing in almost any setting I can conceive of. Not only is this unbalancing, but it would be way too cheap even at +1 or +2.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: New Advangtage: Always Hits

 

Besides we don't need an always hits, Area of Effect: Accurate gives you the ability to target a DCV of 3, and if your OCV is anywhere near decent that will almost always hit - and if you make the advantage invisible (so the target doesn't know it is an area effect accurate, just a normal attack), that gets you close to what you are after, at pretty much the same cost.

 

Target can still dive or dodge though.

[Clonus]

Re: New Advangtage: Always Hits

 

EXAMPLE: Poignard, lovely ballerina turned superheroine, can throw light-daggers at her targets, that never miss! However, they have no effect on soulless constructs and robots. If her target ducks behind a wall or is too far away, the attack misses as well, but otherwise they are absolutely unerring in their accuracy.

 

What happens when she throws them at the guy who Always Succeeds in Deflecting Missiles? Why do they always hit anyway?

[Outsider]

Re: New Advangtage: Always Hits

 

This would be on par with creating an Advantage called "Always Knocks Out Opponent." It would be unbalancing in almost any setting I can conceive of. Not only is this unbalancing' date=' but it would be way too cheap even at +1 or +2.[/quote']

 

So speaks the man who's main character's primary means of defense is DCV

 

Consider characters who's primary means of defense is high PD/ED. As the original poster alluded to , there is already an advantagec (NND) in the game that circumvents the primary defense of PD/ED characters, and it generally isnt called 'unbalancing in almost any setting'. And this advantage is +1 also. Why should DCV based characters be immune to having their defense circumvented, while PD/ED characters are not? Modelling this as the anti-DCV equivalent of NND, would mean that there'd have to be a defense power or circumstance, and that it would do no BODY, of course.

 

 

As to Comic's the comparison of this to AOEs :

 

First, I dont see why an intervening barrier wouldnt block this as well. The original poster's example even stated that the target could take cover to avoid the attack. So cover and force walls in the way still screw this up. Avoiding things like that requires Indirect, which is a whole different advantage.

 

Second, it seems that the person would be (basically) eliminating his target's ability to Dive for Cover in exchange for not being able to hit multiple targets. Easily argued to be a wash.

 

Third, you have a point on the built in 'no range penalty' that this allows. I'd say tack on an additional +1/2 (the value of the range advantage "No Range Modifier") if it is applied to a power usable at range.

 

Fourth, If the game in question is using Hit Locations, I'd disallow aiming with any 'Always Hits' power.

[BNakagawa]

Re: New Advangtage: Always Hits

 

and how would you expect this to work with autofire?

[Outsider]

Re: New Advangtage: Always Hits

 

Autofire already has a mechanism (it is +1 instead of +1/2) for dealing with powers that don't take a normal attack roll. This would be like that, only moreso. Probably "Moreso" enough that Always Hits and Autofire are mutually exclusive.

[Trebuchet]

Re: New Advantage: Always Hits

 

So speaks the man who's main character's primary means of defense is DCV

Well, I may be guilty of a bit bias here...

 

Consider characters who's primary means of defense is high PD/ED. As the original poster alluded to , there is already an advantage (NND) in the game that circumvents the primary defense of PD/ED characters, and it generally isnt called 'unbalancing in almost any setting'. And this advantage is +1 also. Why should DCV based characters be immune to having their defense circumvented, while PD/ED characters are not? Modelling this as the anti-DCV equivalent of NND, would mean that there'd have to be a defense power or circumstance, and that it would do no BODY, of course.

Two reasons I see:

 

1) Characters with high PD/ED as their primary defense generally have correspondingly high CON and STUN numbers. IOW, so even NND or AVLD attacks will seldom one-shot those types of characters. Damage-avoidance types (high DCV) seldom have characteristics to back up that high DCV. If high-DCV types cannot avoid attacks made with this Advantage, they're going to become a lot less attractive to play. (Keep in mind that even the high-DCV types like speedsters and MAs can still be affected by NND attacks, whereas a brick may not even notice an Always Hits attack because it's too small due to the high cost.)

 

2) I dislike as a rule attacks that can't be evaded or avoided by character actions. If DfC or taking cover behind some sort of barrier stops this spiffy new attack, then it's hardly "Always Hits" anymore, is it?

 

Seems to me that this is a "solution" to a non-existant problem. With AoE attacks (perhaps purchased with Accurate and maybe No Range Mods) you can accomplish pretty much the same thing. What character can't hit a 3 DCV? (Of course, even with this new proposed Advantage, a natural roll of '18' is still going to miss.)

[CTaylor]

Re: New Advangtage: Always Hits

 

The reason I see this as a reasonable build is that it is limited in its construction to stun only and lower damage (Because of the higher cost). Were NND not in the game, people would shriek that it's broken because people who rely on high defenses would have spent all those points for naught.

 

Same deal here: people who rely on not being hit as a defense are in the same boat: this bypasses their primary means of survival. But the cost limits its power and the stun only limits its danger. Add that to logical ways to avoid being hit and you have a more realistic understanding of the advantage, I believe.

 

Missile deflection, for example, would be a valid way to avoid being hit - if it was a missile.

 

Consider this with Autofire. You have a 60 active point campaign (just an arbitrary number, although I suspect still quite common). A power with autofire and this would at best give you a 4D6 energy blast. That's not much to be afraid of, even if you're a normal. Plus it uses up (with this construction) 30 END. Go ahead and do that a few times, then pass out.

 

The cost seems reasonable, given what it does. And it simulates very well a mechanic in Hero games that is missing, but is present in every other game system and presumed for many genre standards such as magic that doesn't require a roll to hit.

[Trebuchet]

Re: New Advantage: Always Hits

 

The reason I see this as a reasonable build is that it is limited in its construction to stun only and lower damage (Because of the higher cost). Were NND not in the game, people would shriek that it's broken because people who rely on high defenses would have spent all those points for naught.

 

Same deal here: people who rely on not being hit as a defense are in the same boat: this bypasses their primary means of survival. But the cost limits its power and the stun only limits its danger. Add that to logical ways to avoid being hit and you have a more realistic understanding of the advantage, I believe.

 

Missile deflection, for example, would be a valid way to avoid being hit - if it was a missile.

 

Consider this with Autofire. You have a 60 active point campaign (just an arbitrary number, although I suspect still quite common). A power with autofire and this would at best give you a 4D6 energy blast. That's not much to be afraid of, even if you're a normal. Plus it uses up (with this construction) 30 END. Go ahead and do that a few times, then pass out.

 

The cost seems reasonable, given what it does. And it simulates very well a mechanic in Hero games that is missing, but is present in every other game system and presumed for many genre standards such as magic that doesn't require a roll to hit.

You raise some points worth considering. Perhaps you could post some example builds (similar to what they do in 5ER for each Power) so we can see how you view it being constructed with SFX and typical defenses?

[Outsider]

Re: New Advangtage: Always Hits

 

1) A brick won't be one-shotted by an NND attack, no. But neither will a Martial Artist be one-shotted by an Always Hits attack. Just as the brick wont even notice an Always Hits attack because it is too small due to the cost, the Martial Artist/Speedster won't be one-shotted by the AH attack for the same reason. They still get their PD/ED against it, and I've not seen too many Martial Artists who's PD/ED was so low that a campaign standard Active Point AoE attack would one shot them. Also, while the brick's primary defense may shrug off Always Hits attacks, so too does the martial artist's primary defense shrug off NND ones.

 

Example :

 

Brick : 35 PD, 23 CON, 60 STUN : Base DCV (attacks have a 10- to hit him (50% hits))

Martial Artist : 15 PD, 18 CON, 35 STUN : +5 DCV over the Brick (Attack has a 5- to hit him (~5% hits))

 

vs NND attack (6D6 NND, 60 AP) :

 

Brick : Is hit 50% of the time, and when hit takes 21 STUN. Nearly stuns him, and 3 such hits (6 attacks on average) will put him to negative STUN.

 

Martial artist : is hit 5% of the time and when hit takes 21 STUN. Barely Stuns him, and 2 such hits (40 attacks) will put him to negative STUN. Only theoretically effective against the Martial Artist. While one lucky hit will stun him, odds are his high speed will allow him to unstun before the attacker can hit him again at low DCV. The odds of getting 2 hits close enough together to overcome the targets post 12 recoveries and put him under are pretty low. The martial artist's primary defense makes him nigh immune to this attack.

 

Advantage : Martial Artist.

 

vs Always Hits attacks (6D6 AH, 60 AP) :

Brick : Is hit 100% of the time, and when hit takes 0 STUN. Bricks primary defense makes him actually immune to this attack.

 

Martial artist : Is hit 100% of the time and when hit takes 6 STUN. It doesnt Stun him, and it takes 6 such hits (6 attacks) to put him to negative STUN.

 

Advantage : Brick.

 

In the example given (which I didnt work out ahead of time) both characters are put out of the fight by 6 attacks that circumvent their primary defense, and are effectively (or actually) immune to attacks that don't circumvent their primary defense.

 

 

 

2) Call it "No To Hit Roll" instead of "Always Hits" then.

 

The use of this advantage would be that it simplifies making the 'never misses' type power that one sees in various genres. No rigamorole of buying an (AOE, Accurate, No Range Mod, Only hits one target in the AOE etc etc) construct to simulate hyper-accuracy. It also provides balance vis-a-vis NND. Again, why should PD/ED based characters have their primary defence be easily circumventable by a standard power advantage, while circumventing DCV based character's primary defense takes a complex melange of advantages and some hand-waving?

[Outsider]

Re: New Advangtage: Always Hits

 

The reason I see this as a reasonable build is that it is limited in its construction to stun only and lower damage (Because of the higher cost). Were NND not in the game, people would shriek that it's broken because people who rely on high defenses would have spent all those points for naught.

 

Same deal here: people who rely on not being hit as a defense are in the same boat: this bypasses their primary means of survival. But the cost limits its power and the stun only limits its danger. Add that to logical ways to avoid being hit and you have a more realistic understanding of the advantage, I believe.

 

Missile deflection, for example, would be a valid way to avoid being hit - if it was a missile.

 

Consider this with Autofire. You have a 60 active point campaign (just an arbitrary number, although I suspect still quite common). A power with autofire and this would at best give you a 4D6 energy blast. That's not much to be afraid of, even if you're a normal. Plus it uses up (with this construction) 30 END. Go ahead and do that a few times, then pass out.

 

The cost seems reasonable, given what it does. And it simulates very well a mechanic in Hero games that is missing, but is present in every other game system and presumed for many genre standards such as magic that doesn't require a roll to hit.

 

If it were -just- this advantage, yeah, it wouldnt be that bad. End Cost and Small Attack size would make it not all that effective. But combine it with other advantages and you can get some real trouble pretty easy.

 

60 (60) Energy Blast : 2D6

___(+1) Always Hits

___(+1) No Normal Defense

___(+1) AutoFire (10x)

___(+1) Autofire Surcharge for not having a normal attack roll.

___(+1) Reduced END Cost (0 END)

 

Now you're doing 20D6 that always hits, avoids PD/ED, and isnt prohibitively END consuming. Dropping it to 1D6 and upping the number of AF doublings makes it even worse.

 

60 (60) Energy Blast : 1D6

___(+1) Always Hits

___(+1) No Normal Defense

___(+7) AutoFire (10240x)

___(+1) Autofire Surcharge for not having a normal attack roll.

___(+1) Reduced END Cost (0 END)

 

Now you're doing 10,240 D6 that never misses and bypasses defenses.

 

Even if you double the Autofire surcharge since it doesnt have a normal attack roll AND doesnt apply to normal defenses, this only removes 2 doublings and drops things to 2560 D6...

 

 

This is why I said earlier that I'd probably make AF and AH mutually exclusive. You can have volume OR accuracy, not both.

[Trebuchet]

Re: New Advangtage: Always Hits

 

On the basis of that analysis I think I may withdraw my objections, at least until I've seen some examples.

 

I disagree with changing it to "No Hit Roll." That bypasses too many possible Limitations, such as Jammed or Burnout. I think we should keep the die roll, with the understanding that in addition to the built-in method of avoidance a natural 18 roll is still a miss.

 

How would this Advantage interact with Missile Deflection/Reflection?

 

EDIT: I think it should probably be considered a ! or Stop Sign Advantage and require close GM scrutiny (just as NND should).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Advangtage: Always Hits

 

Well, let's look at a 60 AP attack.

 

6d6 EB Always Hits will cost 60 points, and do 6d6 normal damage with no BOD. If you wanted it to do BOD, it costs 90 points.

 

For 60 points, I can buy 6d6 EB, 1 hex area, accurate (45 points) and +7 OCV with a single attack (1 point left over). That's going to hit pretty much everyone anyway, and it does BOD and Knockback.

 

For 90 points, I can buy 6d6 EB, 1 hex, accurate, no range modifers (60 points) and +15 OCV with that attack.

 

I think +1 feels about right.

[TaxiMan]

Re: New Advangtage: Always Hits

 

How much do you plan to charge for the Advantage "Never Gets Hit" or the even better "Never Takes Damage"?

[Outsider]

Re: New Advangtage: Always Hits

 

On the basis of that analysis I think I may withdraw my objections, at least until I've seen some examples.

 

I disagree with changing it to "No Hit Roll." That bypasses too many possible Limitations, such as Jammed or Burnout. I think we should keep the die roll, with the understanding that in addition to the built-in method of avoidance a natural 18 roll is still a miss.

 

How would this Advantage interact with Missile Deflection/Reflection?

 

EDIT: I think it should probably be considered a ! or Stop Sign Advantage and require close GM scrutiny (just as NND should).

 

 

Agreed on all points. Its an interesting idea, and as a bypass of DCV it balances the bypass of PD that is NND. But I'd need to actually play with or think about it a good bit more to see if/how it really works.

 

It definitely doesnt work with Autofire, anyway.

 

And I'd make ranged attacks with it +1/2 more than melee attacks with it to account for its bypassing of range modifiers as well.

[Outsider]

Re: New Advangtage: Always Hits

 

How much do you plan to charge for the Advantage "Never Gets Hit" or the even better "Never Takes Damage"?

 

That'd be 40 points, would take END, would disallow the character from attacking himself without taking a +2 advantage on his attack, and would not work against some common special effect. Its called "Desolidification" and is already in the game

[BNakagawa]

Re: New Advangtage: Always Hits

 

Well, let's look at a 60 AP attack.

 

6d6 EB Always Hits will cost 60 points, and do 6d6 normal damage with no BOD. If you wanted it to do BOD, it costs 90 points.

 

For 60 points, I can buy 6d6 EB, 1 hex area, accurate (45 points) and +7 OCV with a single attack (1 point left over). That's going to hit pretty much everyone anyway, and it does BOD and Knockback.

 

For 90 points, I can buy 6d6 EB, 1 hex, accurate, no range modifers (60 points) and +15 OCV with that attack.

 

I think +1 feels about right.

 

This advantage is just begging for advantage stacking.

 

for 60 AP, you can do 4d6 NND that never misses. That's what this is going to be used for, because nobody ever bothers doing 6d6 damage unless it's tricked out with penetrating, AP, FW, or something else.

 

Which brings up a point. This power is brutal combined with FW.

[Vondy]

Re: New Advangtage: Always Hits

 

It depends whether you always want a damage roll with it, or whether its just a neato special effect like "bullseye's" ability with thrown objects. In the first case I would require a +1 advantage (hitting doesn't always mean a sufficient damage roll and may amount to nickel and diming your opponent), but it a game with a notable disparity between damage and defenses I wouldn't allow it at all.

 

In the latter case - its just a special effect - I would give it a +1/4 because the special effect may have some minor uses in play (always wins at darts, forces a dex roll from a fleeing opponent, etc) but would still require a to hit roll. A miss would simply result in "superficial" damage, whereas a to hit roll would have an accompanying damage roll.

 

As it is there is already a very similar effect you can use "area of effect, one hex, accurate." It doesn't always hit, but hitting a hex is extremely easy, especially if you have a few PSLs and/or a few 2 pointers with that specific attack. This is, generally, how such attacks would be modeled in my game.

 

I would point out, however, that the first application of the idea leaves me cold. It strikes me as being ripe for abuse and would need a "stop sign" attached to it - GM permission only.

[Trebuchet]

Re: New Advangtage: Always Hits

 

This advantage is just begging for advantage stacking.

Which is precisely why all builds, especially ones with Advantages, should be carefully vetted by the GM for balance. Just because something is legal by the book doesn't mean it should be automatically allowed. Advantage stacking always has to be watched very carefully. When I give permission for such a build as a GM, it's always with the caveat that I reserve the right to withdraw that permission pending actual play experience with it. If it's unbalancing, out it goes.

 

I'm not sure this is potentially more unbalancing than (say) Find Weakness working in tandem with AoE Accurate and a few levels. It could be very powerful, but so can a lot of other potential combinations.

[CTaylor]

Re: New Advangtage: Always Hits

 

I agree, autofire can be brutal when stacked with other advantages as well, especially if clever players build them the right way. Does that make it broken, or does it mean the GM needs to keep an eye out? Each one of those advantages makes the power do less damage: I don't care if your blast is NND and always hits with 0 END Cost and autofire: it's still only doing 1D6, and even a normal is going to be able to take that.

[Force]

Re: New Advangtage: Always Hits

 

How nasty is this advantage with a penetrating, autofire, low pip rka?

 

Can someone do the math on 60-90 point active points and build the nastiest thing you can?

[Trebuchet]

Re: New Advangtage: Always Hits

 

Killing Attack - Ranged 1 point (standard effect: 1 BODY, 2 STUN), Penetrating (+1/2), Always Hits (+1), 16000 Charges (+1), Autofire (640 shots; +4) (37 Active Points)

 

 

I'd say this is sufficiently lethal - it would chew a battleship in half, maybe an entire fleet.

 

To me, this is more about the danger of mixing PEN with AF than any inherent problem with Always Hits.

[pawsplay]

Re: New Advangtage: Always Hits

 

I think conceptually it doesn't work. If it can be avoided by taking cover, can't you then Dive for Cover?

 

How does someone block or missile deflect this attack?

 

What kind of attacks actually never miss? It just doesn't make sense.

 

How would you stat Armor, "Never gets penetrated?" Or Martial Dodge, "Attacks always miss?"