Rules to ignore, or replace

[casualplayer]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

It is why the name of the power is the stumbling block. Energy blast is used to create all kinds of attack powers that are not energy or blasts. We got over that break in terminology a long time ago. Either we need to swallow the power as it reads or ask Steve to change the name of it....

 

 

 

Doc

 

I vote for Simulate or Simulation as the new name, with the power based on Images (actually supplanting Images, Shape Shift and Invisibility.) The purpose of all these powers is to fool the senses of the observer and Images is currently perfectly structured for determining the difficulty of PERing through the deception and for determing the area able to be effected. Of course, the power name Images comes with so much baggage also that people have problems with using it for anything but holograms and such.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I vote for Simulate or Simulation as the new name' date=' with the power based on Images (actually supplanting Images, Shape Shift and Invisibility.) The purpose of all these powers is to fool the senses of the observer and Images is currently perfectly structured for determining the difficulty of PERing through the deception and for determing the area able to be effected. Of course, the power name Images comes with so much baggage also that people have problems with using it for anything but holograms and such.[/quote']

 

I like that. from images to replication with everything in between....

 

Doc

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Suppose he'd been standing in a doorway, in his human shape, and then folded himself down into this box shape. Our vision is affected, because now the objects that were behind him, some of which were blocked by his body, are not the same items that are blocked now, or they are blocked differently.

 

Folding down to the size of a cereal box would require Shrinking, and it's primarily the Shrinking that's affecting our vision in this example.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Folding down to the size of a cereal box would require Shrinking' date=' and it's primarily the Shrinking that's affecting our vision in this example.[/quote']

 

 

 

Doc A. specifically said shape, not shape and size.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Doc A. specifically said shape' date=' not [u']shape and size[/u].

 

"Folding himself down" into a "cereal box" implies a change in size. If he's remaining a human-sized cereal box, our view of things behind him is not seriously altered, no more so than if he starting waving his arms or simply sat down. It's trivial, and doesn't represent a power that affects vision any more than an HKA via retractable claws or Flight via fold-out wings.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

"Folding himself down" into a "cereal box" implies a change in size. If he's remaining a human-sized cereal box' date=' our view of things behind him is not seriously altered, no more so than if he starting waving his arms or simply sat down. It's trivial, and doesn't represent a power that affects vision any more than an HKA via retractable claws or Flight via fold-out wings.[/quote']

Certainly it DOES make a difference, without having to use Shrinking. Take for example contortionists that can fold themselves up to fit into a suitcase. They most certainly occupy a smaller, more compact, area than before. Assuming Plas does the same, he most certainly IS going to block a different section of view than if he's standing there in his full human shape.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Certainly it DOES make a difference' date=' without having to use Shrinking. Take for example contortionists that can fold themselves up to fit into a suitcase. They most certainly occupy a smaller, more compact, area than before. Assuming Plas does the same, he most certainly IS going to block a different section of view than if he's standing there in his full human shape.[/quote']

 

Yes, but he does much the same if he sits down or stands sideways. It's a change, but one that is in no way significant enough to confuse it with a Power that affects Sight. If Hawkman stands in the same doorway and spreads his wings, he's having a greater effect on people's vision through the doorway than Plastic Man gets from his cereal-box shape; is his Flight also affecting Sight?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

re: Plastic Man

 

Take a look at the following examples of different forms that the character can take and then think about what HERO powers would need to be used.

 

example 1

 

example 2

 

example 3

 

Example 1 requires gliding but could use shape shift vs. touch as well.

 

Example 2 requires Shape Shift vs. Touch. In a low lighting situation it is possible that he might visually confuse someone who is only noticing the outline of the shape.

 

Example 3 requires Stretching and possibly some Growth to account for his extra height.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Example 3 requires Stretching and possibly some Growth to account for his extra height.

 

I'd let him go with just the Stretching. Since Stretching by default allows you to stretch any of your body parts (including the legs, waist, or neck) it must also allow you to be taller.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Why is it that we happily accept that fire powers might require many game powers to simulate in a power framework. EB, KA, Flash, Flight, force field etc. But, for a shapeshifting character then one power should be able to accomplish all of the game stuff that we want?

 

 

In the plastic man examples above what is it that the player is wanting to achieve (game wise) with them?

 

Example 1 - To slow his fall from a great height or to travel faster than he might be able to walk. Definitely seems like Gliding to me and the fact that he shapeshifts is the SFX of that power.

 

Example 2 - Not sure what exactly the character is trying to achieve here. If it is comic relief then its free and might attract a beanie. If it is a way of communicating - pop in a letter and information or a delivery is made to the character then it is more like telepathy, two way radio senses or a small gadget VPP. Again the shift to a letter box is SFX - indicating the power in use.

 

Example 3 - stretching limbs to allow better access ot reach - definitely stretching of some kind.

 

In none of these do I see a particular need for Shapeshift as a power unless the player indicated to me that they wanted the ability to use these SFX forms regularly in non-standard ways - such as shielding people with glider wings and blocking their sight, or fooloing someone into posting their letters in my mouth etc etc.

 

That would kick in the need for shapeshift - a game effect need, not something based on what the character looks like or how he achieves other game effects....

 

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Certainly it DOES make a difference' date=' without having to use Shrinking. Take for example contortionists that can fold themselves up to fit into a suitcase. They most certainly occupy a smaller, more compact, area than before. Assuming Plas does the same, he most certainly IS going to block a different section of view than if he's standing there in his full human shape.[/quote']

 

 

Shapeshift costs END, so it is visible to three sense groups, commonly including Sight. Even if your Shape Shift does not include the Sight group, its use would commonly be visible.

 

Shape Shift doesn't just allow the character to create a manifestation perceivable by one or more sense groups - every visible power already does that. It allows the character to fool one or more sense groups into believing they are something which they are not. Of the three Plastic Man examples, only the mailbox might have that effect.

[CTaylor]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Yes, but he does much the same if he sits down or stands sideways. It's a change, but one that is in no way significant enough to confuse it with a Power that affects Sight. If Hawkman stands in the same doorway and spreads his wings, he's having a greater effect on people's vision through the doorway than Plastic Man gets from his cereal-box shape; is his Flight also affecting Sight?

 

Flight's special effect of restrainable wings that look like a hawk's have a minor combat effect of being able to block off sight. That's a pretty different area of rules than being able to have shrinking without buying the power, in my book.

[CTaylor]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Incidentally, while we're talking about Shrinking, I'd change that too, to be more in line with Growth and Density Increase.

 

The present cost structure is an attempt to make it more like Growth: 15 points to double your size. The problem is, it's only 10 points per level of shrinking, which negates that aspect by 1/3rd the cost. It just doesn't fit.

 

In real game terms, becoming half as big just isn't worth 10 points - heck its not worth 5 points - so the power was stacked with bonuses to make it seem worthwhile.

 

Here's what I'd do: dump the growth momentum attack. If you want to hit harder, buy more dice. Then I'd cut the DCV and PER roll bonuses in half: -1 PER to be seen and +1 DCV per level of Shrinking.

 

Then I'd cut the price of shrinking in half, 5 points per level. This would bring the cost of being tiny down to a rational level while not being overpowered. In any case, being half as big is not worth 2 more DCV. Look at how every small, spry creature is built in the rules: lots of Dex. That's why they are hard to hit, not because they are just small.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Flight's special effect of restrainable wings that look like a hawk's have a minor combat effect of being able to block off sight. That's a pretty different area of rules than being able to have shrinking without buying the power' date=' in my book.[/quote']

 

Shapeshift doesn't get you any of the benefits of Shrinking, even if it alllows you to contort into a smaller space. Similarly, those wings don't make you any easier to hit, even though you cover the same surface area.

 

Incidentally, while we're talking about Shrinking, I'd change that too, to be more in line with Growth and Density Increase.

 

The present cost structure is an attempt to make it more like Growth: 15 points to double your size. The problem is, it's only 10 points per level of shrinking, which negates that aspect by 1/3rd the cost. It just doesn't fit.

 

In real game terms, becoming half as big just isn't worth 10 points - heck its not worth 5 points - so the power was stacked with bonuses to make it seem worthwhile.

 

Here's what I'd do: dump the growth momentum attack. If you want to hit harder, buy more dice. Then I'd cut the DCV and PER roll bonuses in half: -1 PER to be seen and +1 DCV per level of Shrinking.

 

Then I'd cut the price of shrinking in half, 5 points per level. This would bring the cost of being tiny down to a rational level while not being overpowered. In any case, being half as big is not worth 2 more DCV. Look at how every small, spry creature is built in the rules: lots of Dex. That's why they are hard to hit, not because they are just small.

 

This would also require changing the DCV modifiers for objects, and logically mean that being twice as big should only reduce your DCV by 1, not 2. With that in mind, we probably need to change the base DCV for a hex. Range modifiers may also need to change - does the reduction to OCV at range stem from the fact that the targets look smaller?

 

As to Growth Momentum, it could certainly go - most characters with Shrinking rely on it for DCV, so they don't often grow up and attack, losing that DCV bonus until their next phase, anyway.

[CTaylor]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

This would also require changing the DCV modifiers for objects, and logically mean that being twice as big should only reduce your DCV by 1, not 2. With that in mind, we probably need to change the base DCV for a hex. Range modifiers may also need to change - does the reduction to OCV at range stem from the fact that the targets look smaller?

 

While I understand your logic with this, the game already treats PCs differently than Hexes. If you want to hit a prone, unconscious, unmoving PC, he's DCV 0. An entire Hex is DCV 3.

 

So the change to Shrinking need not mean a change to mechanics elsewhere. That said, I wouldn't oppose such changes - the hit locations for example are absurdly restrictive. Lets say you and I get into a fight. How many times out of 10 do you think I could hit you in the head? Not with you blocking me, but with you just trying to move your head out of the way? I guarantee it would be more than the present hero system makes feasible.

[archermoo]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I think you may have hit the nail on the head with that. Consider this: here is Plastic Man, who's folded himself in the the shape of a cereal box...

 

 

Now, according to the HERO rules, he has only used Shape Shift vs. Touch, as he's changed his shape, but you can plainly see he's still Plastic Man, so he hasn't used Shape Shift vs. Sight.

 

BUT.

 

Suppose he'd been standing in a doorway, in his human shape, and then folded himself down into this box shape. Our vision is affected, because now the objects that were behind him, some of which were blocked by his body, are not the same items that are blocked now, or they are blocked differently.

 

So using Shape Shift vs. Touch to change his physical shape does in some fashion also interact with our vision, how we see him. And that is, I think, if not the stumbling block, at least a big part of it.

 

In your example our vision is only effected as much as it would've been if he sat down. Using Shapeshift vs Touch to change your physical shape will indeed be noticable to other senses, as your physical shape has indeed changed. Just like changing your physical configuration by sitting down on the floor is a physical change that is noticable to many senses. Do you require players buy Shapeshift vs Vision to be able to sit down?

[SteveZilla]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Do you require players buy Shapeshift vs Vision to be able to sit down?

 

Of course not!

 

That would need Shape Shift vs Touch Group!

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Of course not!

 

That would need Shape Shift vs Touch Group!

 

I prefer Extradimensional Movement: To dimension where sight is blocked by me sitting down.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

In your example our vision is only effected as much as it would've been if he sat down. Using Shapeshift vs Touch to change your physical shape will indeed be noticable to other senses' date=' as your physical shape has indeed changed. Just like changing your physical configuration by sitting down on the floor is a physical change that is noticable to many senses. Do you require players buy Shapeshift vs Vision to be able to sit down?[/quote']

 

Oh har har. Thank you so much for reducing an attempt at a valid point to a laughing point. Very well done oh noble mod.

 

(And yes, I actually am pissed off, archermoo.)

 

My point was... as I thought was obvious... that changing the physical form (via Shape Shift Touch) also affects how we see him, because we see the shape... we don't have to go up and feel him in order to notice that he's changed shape using Shape Shift Touch... we can do that with our eyes.

 

And that because there is a VISUAL difference, when using Shape Shift Touch, people may be getting hung up on that.

 

But no. Mocking derision instead. Very nice. Very nice way to obscure things.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

My take on shapeshift (September 2007)

So, what does shapeshift do?

5ER says that it enables a character to change their form as perceived by other characters.

What it does mechanically is:

• Causes opponents to perceive the character, as normal, but with a different appearance.
  
• If touch shapeshift is taken, actually change his shape or mass distribution.

Now a lot of the problems that people perceive about shapeshift are caused by #2 above.

If, the argument goes, and I’ve used it myself, you ONLY have touch shapeshift, and you turn into something that has a different shape or mass distribution from your normal self (as opposed to just using it to retexture your skin), how/why can that also be perceived visually?

Good question, but not one that should be directed at the rules, but at whoever built the character. If you do LOOK different, then why did you not buy ‘Sight shapeshift’, possibly in a limited form to indicate you cannot change anything but outline?

Built right, the power causes no real problems, but if you deal with individual components, without looking at the whole, you will see inconsistencies. The power is NOT Touch Shapeshift – it is Shapeshift, and you build the whole thing to do what you want. The tools are there and, used correctly, the power should not cause problems.

[JmOz]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

My take on shapeshift (September 2007)

 

So, what does shapeshift do?

 

5ER says that it enables a character to change their form as perceived by other characters.

 

What it does mechanically is:

 

• Causes opponents to perceive the character, as normal, but with a different appearance.
  
• If touch shapeshift is taken, actually change his shape or mass distribution.

Now a lot of the problems that people perceive about shapeshift are caused by #2 above.

 

If, the argument goes, and I’ve used it myself, you ONLY have touch shapeshift, and you turn into something that has a different shape or mass distribution from your normal self (as opposed to just using it to retexture your skin), how/why can that also be perceived visually?

 

Good question, but not one that should be directed at the rules, but at whoever built the character. If you do LOOK different, then why did you not buy ‘Sight shapeshift’, possibly in a limited form to indicate you cannot change anything but outline?

 

Built right, the power causes no real problems, but if you deal with individual components, without looking at the whole, you will see inconsistencies. The power is NOT Touch Shapeshift – it is Shapeshift, and you build the whole thing to do what you want. The tools are there and, used correctly, the power should not cause problems.

 

I would contend that if touch only is taken then a difference in sight can be considered part of the F/X as long as the appearence is still recognisable as your character, Plastic Man is an excelent example of what I am refering to here

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Hmm. This keeps tumbling through my head and Sean keeps making the words spin. I blame his professional training.

 

I think Steve needs to think about how this is presented. I would also make a change to the basic concept. As follows:

 

When I have changed shape people look and see the shape I have turned into. Shapeshift does that for me. There is a base cost to this of 10 points for four predefined shapes. (You can take a -5 adder for being limited to one shape).

 

If I have Shapeshift and I change shape into a tree - I do not look like a tree, I look like a tree shaped man; I do not feel like a tree, I feel like a man.

 

Now if the sight group is purchased then not only do I have the shape of a tree, I look like a tree, though when touched I still feel like a man. If the shapeshift includes touch then I have the shape of a tree, look like a tree and feel like a tree but I dont have a pine fresh scent...

 

 

I think that this makes the power very much like Steve had it with the emphasis on senses and yet provides that basic power to change your shape. The addition of senses makes it more and more difficult to 'notice' that you are shape-changed (though I'm wondering what the SFX for IPE Shapechange would be. Should the purchase of all senses be equivalent to making the power IPE?)

 

 

Doc

[Vondy]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Hmm. This keeps tumbling through my head and Sean keeps making the words spin. I blame his professional training.

 

I think Steve needs to think about how this is presented. I would also make a change to the basic concept. As follows:

 

When I have changed shape people look and see the shape I have turned into. Shapeshift does that for me. There is a base cost to this of 10 points for four predefined shapes. (You can take a -5 adder for being limited to one shape).

 

If I have Shapeshift and I change shape into a tree - I do not look like a tree, I look like a tree shaped man; I do not feel like a tree, I feel like a man.

 

Now if the sight group is purchased then not only do I have the shape of a tree, I look like a tree, though when touched I still feel like a man. If the shapeshift includes touch then I have the shape of a tree, look like a tree and feel like a tree but I dont have a pine fresh scent...

 

 

I think that this makes the power very much like Steve had it with the emphasis on senses and yet provides that basic power to change your shape. The addition of senses makes it more and more difficult to 'notice' that you are shape-changed (though I'm wondering what the SFX for IPE Shapechange would be. Should the purchase of all senses be equivalent to making the power IPE?)

 

 

Doc

 

Without the touch group its just images; with only the touch group its ridiculous (unless you're a stretchy guy - which makes you pretty ridiculous... ).

 

Touch only shape shift does work for a narrow set of applications, but without the touch sense you haven't changed shape (and should be buying images instead).

 

The only issue I have is that you can buy the power without the touch group and there is an EXTANT POWER that covers all such possibilities.

 

Essentially, you should only be able to purchase sense groups in addition to touch.

[schir1964]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Without the touch group its just images; with only the touch group its ridiculous (unless you're a stretchy guy - which makes you pretty ridiculous... ).

 

Touch only shape shift does work for a narrow set of applications, but without the touch sense you haven't changed shape (and should be buying images instead).

 

The only issue I have is that you can buy the power without the touch group and there is an EXTANT POWER that covers all such possibilities.

 

Essentially, you should only be able to purchase sense groups in addition to touch.

Repped.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

It is certainly an interesting thought that the sfx of shapeshift could be that your appearace changes. I mean the sfx of a force field could be that you appear to be coated in a rocky shell, which makes you look bigger and quite different, and presumably that would appear that way to at least 3 senses.

 

Arguably then, any manifestation of shapeshift, even a 'smellshift' could make you LOOK different

 

As for IPE shapeshift, well, the actual sense or senses you are shifting would be obviously changing BUT, given that shapeshift is a constant power SHOULD mean that it is obvious to three senses that you are using a power, even afterrt he change is accomplished. You could certinaly use IPE to prevent anyone just looking at you and knowing that you are using a power, which is theoretically what SHOULD happen when you are in a different form.

 

I hope that stopped the thoughts tumbling, Doc

 

The other way to look at it is simply this: the power does what it says. A touch shapeshift allows you to take a different outline, but vision will never be fooled - you are still the same character to normal vision, even if you are oddly contorted. Whilst you may be able to fool normal vision with a touch shapeshift occasionally - for instance if you are seen in silhouette - that is more by way of a power trick. The base ststse is shapeshift does not deceive normal vsiion unless you buy that feature.

 

That of course comes into what shapeshift is actually going to be sued for, and therein lies the question.

 

As a 'perfect disguise' it works, well, perfectly, for fooling people into thinking that you are someone else. Mystique would need shapeshift - and she rarely does any real changing of 'shape' just of features, maybe a little height adjustment, girth adjustment. She can probably escape ropes. She's got shapeshift.

 

OTOH, Plastic Man rarely fools anyone with his shapeshifts (although he can, and has it is rare - power trick?) and I'd suggest he has a combination of stretching and growth (I don't actually know if his mass changes - if not it is just stretching). HOWEVER, stretching, whilst it may look pretty wild, all it actually does is allows you to use reach and a form of indirect. it specifically does not let you, for instance, squeeze under doors. Common and dramatic sense may say that if you can redistribute mass you can escape ropes, but the power is not actually about mass redistribution, and escaping ropes is not something that the power technically allows you to do. So, it may be that Plastic Man has shapeshift (touch), and the shapes he 'throws' are the vsiual representation of the stretching power in combination with the touch shapeshift, rather than seperate purchase of even a limited form of sight shapeshift.

 

Am I helping?