Ninjas in a Champions game

[Scifi_Toughguy]

One of my player characters is playing a Martial Artist whose background involves various ninja clans. He is now renegade and has his clan among his hunted disads. My question to the hero population at large is: I want to have (at times) hordes of ninjas as antagonists/adversaries in my game. (okay thats not really a question) How many points should I build them from? The hero group is built on standard cost. How many points should I build each ninja on? I'm thinking at least a hundred. I want them to be cannon fodder, but enough that the group of heroes has to take a gang of them seriously.

[transmetahuman]

Re: Ninjas in a Champions game

 

Duuuude, if the players have 350, ninjas have to have at least 500!!!

 

Of course, 300 of those points get the limitation "Not when with other ninjas", another 100 of his points get "Not when with four or more other ninjas", and for that Keystone Kops effect, the last 100 get "Not when with sixteen or more other ninjas".

[Trebuchet]

Re: Ninjas in a Champions game

 

Having done something similar myself and assuming 350 point PCs, I'd go with 150 point basic ninja with lieutenants at perhaps 200 - 250 points. Ultimately basic ninjas are just mooks in black bodysuits, so just build them with proportionately lower defenses and attacks. You'll find 350 point supers will wade through these fairly handily, but enough of them can still be dangerous.

[Scifi_Toughguy]

Re: Ninjas in a Champions game

 

How many ninjas should one send against 4-5 PCs? Do you simply balance out the points?

[braincraft]

Re: Ninjas in a Champions game

 

Balance how? You can't send 350 1-pt handicapped ninja after a single 350-pt super, and you can't throw a 2100-pt ubervillain against six 350-pt heroes.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Ninjas in a Champions game

 

How many ninjas should one send against 4-5 PCs? Do you simply balance out the points?

I'd send 4 or 5 ninjas against each PC to start with (plus a lieutenant to direct them all). If that proves too easy for the heroes, then increase the amount (and number of lieutenants) with each successive encounter. The first encounter should be fairly easy; perhaps testing out the renegade's new friends.

 

Normal humans, even ninjas, shouldn't be particularly capable against supers except in ambush. Their strength should lie in their numbers and organization. If you really want to get nasty somewhere down the road, build ninja groups based on the VIPER "5 Teams."

[pinecone]

Re: Ninjas in a Champions game

 

I way to get a "feel" for Ninjas is have Mr/Ms Hunted get jumped by an indeterminate number of Ninjas start with say 5, if he's laughing and mowing them down throw in the "elites", when you've seen enough they run or get captured...he can count them at that time if he wants ta...You get a good idea of how tough they need to be, and you forshadow the future senario....

 

I suggest "Mooks" really well trained normals, "Elites" Low power supers, "Old rivals" close to or equal to the Hunted PC (he fights his rival, his team mops up flunkys)

[Psylint]

Re: Ninjas in a Champions game

 

It really depends on the heroes, the ninja, and how intelligently they are played.

 

For example, I once had a Go-Go inspired martial arts villain at 225 with normal characteristic maxima that regularly mopped the floor with 350 pt. PC's, sometimes 2 or 3 at a time (Multi-power attacks + stretching + Martial arts is harsh). She had to be retired.

 

Even 50 pt. ninja well armed and coordinated can be a serious threat when used intelligently, especially against martial arts type characters as their primary defense, DCV, is so easy to counter with things like area of effect, indirect attacks, etc. When you add some devious multi-power attacks e.g. some of my "techno-ninja" would open up with a flurry of grenade type attacks: popular ones include flash bangs (AVLD flash defense), acid (drain PD penetrating), glue (entangle transparent both take take damage), darkness. So now that target is either flashed, in the dark, entangled and or prone, but at 1/2 DCV for the archers on the roof.

 

Sure if you have your ninja charge into hand to hand with a super powered martial artist, they'll get their lunch handed to them; but if they work intelligently, use powers like flash, darkness, invisibility to degrade the character's CV, use exotic attacks such as AVLD, NND and/or degrade the character's resistances with power drain, they can fall very quickly. After all, it is highly unlikely for anyone to miss a hex.

 

To me, ninja fight intelligently. They would use flash grenades, pepper spray, noxious fumes and other technical wizardry as they got their hands on it. They also would likely set up ambushes, have the initiative, and even occasionally take the odd super-powered target by complete surprise. If I were planning it, I would look at the ninja I had created, then assume all die rolls are 3's and the ninja act when the initiate combat (House rule, if one is "surprised" his/her phase is delayed until after they've had something to react to, i.e. a Dex 30 character who walks into an ambush of Dex 18 ninja cannot take his phase until DEX 17) and then figure out how many ninja I need to "make it close." If the ninja are to ambush a group, I do the previous calculation for each individually (too many variables to deal with PC's coordinating their efforts) subtract 10% add 25% to put in reserve.

 

Luck

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ninjas in a Champions game

 

Ninja Hero has some cool generic Ninja's you can use, I would pick that up and determine how many of those would be a good match.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Ninjas in a Champions game

 

Ninja Hero has some cool generic Ninja's you can use' date=' I would pick that up and determine how many of those would be a good match.[/quote']Yeah, those ninjas are pretty decent. Some of the higher-level ones would be good matches for many supers one on one - nevermind how tough they'd be with a horde of lesser ninjas as backup.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ninjas in a Champions game

 

The CU needs "Surbrook's Rent A Ninja" as a villain organization now.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Ninjas in a Champions game

 

The CU needs "Surbrook's Rent A Ninja" as a villain organization now.

Perhaps its public face could be RAN Corporation - of course the public would have no idea of what the initials stand for.

[Scifi_Toughguy]

Re: Ninjas in a Champions game

 

All great suggestions. I thank you for your input. While I had a hunch that premade ninjas were to be had in some martial-artsy Hero book, paying money for it while only needing one thing out of it seems a bit of a waste. My group and I are getting into the game (no one has ever really played this system before) and are using this 'intro' game/campaign to hopefully jumpstart our hero careers. As such, we don't want to invest all kinds of money and then not like it/use it. Especially as I'm the only one who buys anything!

[BoneDaddy]

Re: Ninjas in a Champions game

 

Remember "Keep on the Borderlands". Properly utilized, even kobolds are nasty.

[Scifi_Toughguy]

Re: Ninjas in a Champions game

 

I have no idea what keep on the borderlands refers to, obviously other than kobolds.

[Cygnia]

Re: Ninjas in a Champions game

 

I have no idea what keep on the borderlands refers to' date=' obviously other than kobolds.[/quote']

 

It's one of the original classic D&D modules way back when.

[BoneDaddy]

Re: Ninjas in a Champions game

 

I have no idea what keep on the borderlands refers to' date=' obviously other than kobolds.[/quote']

Callow youth, as Chiun says to Remo. Keep on the Borderlands was one of the old school dungeon crawls from back when D&D didn't have numbered editions. The entrance to the keep (if memory serves me correctly) was a series of traps and ambushes set by some nasty little kobolds who could nickel and dime the heartiest unwary adventurer into an early grave. Ninja's operate on a similar principle - they don't fight fair or openly, if at all, and they are master's of the armed retreat.

[Psylint]

Re: Ninjas in a Champions game

 

Well Scifi, gotta tip for you,

 

Dinnah build 'em at all. They're canon fodder right? So if you took the time to build them, you'd assume that at best they would be competent normals so 50/50, but you'd ignore the 50 in disads, 'cause they're ninja and surely they've got at least that much in hunteds alone. You also assume they're human, so normal characteristics, and normal weapons... blah..blah..blah.

 

So then save yourself sometime, look at the characters and ask:

1. Is a vanilla 3d6 Killing Attack enough to cause these folks pause? (that's about 1 1/2 d6 HKA + STR + Martial Arts, or a broadsword w/fencing). If not you'll have to go looking for exotic damage.

 

2. How many combat levels would be necessary to hit the characters if they didn't dodge? Is that reasonable, and if not, how do I feel about using flash, darkness, or invisibility to close the gap. I assume highly trained military folks like ninja are DEX 15 or 18, and they make up the difference with lots of skill levels/martial arts maneuvers etc.

 

3. Account for outliers among the PC's, do you have someone with abnormally high defenses? DCV? a mind controller? etc.

 

4. Assume the "30 Stun rule" i.e. any attack/combination of attacks doing 30 Stun takes spear holder #17 out of the fight. The corollary to that rule is that except where dramatically appropriate, they're highly resistant to Presence attacks, make 1 in 2 perception rolls (e.g. if 5 ninja are in a darkness field, 3 of them will make the non-targeting sense perception roll); they do not get stunned, only knocked out, excepting drains, transfers and the like mimic a combat effect e.g. drain body, stun,etc assume the canon fodder has sufficient power defense. Essentially, it is designed to limit die rolling, speed up combat, and limit book keeping.

 

5. Throw in an odd gadget or two for fun, flash powder, caltrops, smoke pots, etc.

 

If you really want a write up, send me a PM, I think I've got one or two lying around somewhere.

 

Peace

[Mark Rand]

Re: Ninjas in a Champions game

 

Callow youth' date=' as Chiun says to Remo. Keep on the Borderlands was one of the old school dungeon crawls from back when D&D didn't have numbered editions. The entrance to the keep (if memory serves me correctly) was a series of traps and ambushes set by some nasty little kobolds who could nickel and dime the heartiest unwary adventurer into an early grave. Ninja's operate on a similar principle - they don't fight fair or openly, if at all, and they are master's of the armed retreat.

 

To be precise, the kobolds, and other nasties, were in the nearby Caves of Chaos, the map of which was inside the cover. I played and DMed it several times. It was nasty.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Ninjas in a Champions game

 

Here's a neat trick for using ninjas.

 

Generally, they all look the same. Assuming you're sticking fairly close to the source material, they're all about the same size and they're wearing loose fitting clothing that conceals them fully.

 

Obviously, this does not apply if you're opening up membership in ninja clans to everyone who applies. Traditionally, you don't find any 7 footers in ninja gear.

 

Think of about a dozen ninja tricks. Clinging to walls, scurrying around like a spider is a good one. Gliding using some hidden flaps sewn into their gear is another. Special attacks, special defenses, exotic maneuvers or movement modes are all good candidates.

 

Anyway, just make sure you have some of the ninjas show off their moves. Then let the players assume that all of the ninjas know all of the tricks. Make sure the ninjas move through smoke clouds or obscured terrain so they're not entirely sure which one was the one with clinging or which one used the gas bomb.

 

Make sure you have a few more ninjas lurking around the background that aren't actively engaged in combat. These guys are responsible for picking up the wounded and unconscious ninjas. If one of them gets knocked through a display window, then one of the fresh ones can come jumping out while his buddies get the hurt one out of the area.

 

Little tricks like this can get you a lot of bang for the buck. This way you can generate an opponent that causes fear without creating real monstrousities.

[braincraft]

Re: Ninjas in a Champions game

 

Here's a neat trick for using ninjas.

 

Generally, they all look the same. Assuming you're sticking fairly close to the source material, they're all about the same size and they're wearing loose fitting clothing that conceals them fully.

 

Obviously, this does not apply if you're opening up membership in ninja clans to everyone who applies. Traditionally, you don't find any 7 footers in ninja gear.

 

Think of about a dozen ninja tricks. Clinging to walls, scurrying around like a spider is a good one. Gliding using some hidden flaps sewn into their gear is another. Special attacks, special defenses, exotic maneuvers or movement modes are all good candidates.

 

Anyway, just make sure you have some of the ninjas show off their moves. Then let the players assume that all of the ninjas know all of the tricks. Make sure the ninjas move through smoke clouds or obscured terrain so they're not entirely sure which one was the one with clinging or which one used the gas bomb.

 

Make sure you have a few more ninjas lurking around the background that aren't actively engaged in combat. These guys are responsible for picking up the wounded and unconscious ninjas. If one of them gets knocked through a display window, then one of the fresh ones can come jumping out while his buddies get the hurt one out of the area.

 

Little tricks like this can get you a lot of bang for the buck. This way you can generate an opponent that causes fear without creating real monstrousities.

 

In theory, you could use this technique on other types of enemies, too.

 

You could have a group of several identical-looking guys, each with only one or two powers, rotating in and out in a confusing way to make it seem that each has an array of awesome powers. It'd look like an army of Super-Skrulls!

[assault]

Re: Ninjas in a Champions game

 

Of course, you could always look at braincraft's avatar, and use an Australian ninja. That could be scary.

[Susano]

Re: Ninjas in a Champions game

 

And for the commander, you can use Tsukikage, the 500-point anime ninja in Ninja Hero. She's pretty powerful and has some rather unusual powers. Oh, and she's got a way-cool costume.

 

 

*pause*

 

Or lack thereof.

[Scifi_Toughguy]

Re: Ninjas in a Champions game

 

You must spread some rep around before giving it to Susano.

 

(Not for the picture but for the pause, excellent delivery)

[Kevin Schultz]

Re: Ninjas in a Champions game

 

Interestingly, the second place my eye was drawn to in that picture was her highly developed upper calf muscles. That woman has excellent definition!