Metaphysician Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... Yep, the Kings of Edom were banished long before life arose on Earth. Freed, they are bad on the same order as if Gravity one day decided it hated life, and was going to make life impossible by sending planets spiralling into suns and galaxy scattering into lifeless void. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... Yep' date=' the Kings of Edom were banished long before life arose on Earth. Freed, they are bad on the same order as if Gravity one day decided it hated life, and was going to make life impossible by sending planets spiralling into suns and galaxy scattering into lifeless void.[/quote'] Fortunately thier human servants are incompetent. We're talking 'makes COBRA look like a an actual threat' level incompetent here. Seriously the only reason they're considered a threat is because of all the handwaving done by the author and the various higher ups at HERO Games. [Can you tell I didn't like the DEMON book?] In my campaign it's not what if DEMON wins, it's what if DEMON survived the curbstomping they took in Boston due to thier own idiocy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... In my campaign it's not what if DEMON wins' date=' it's what if DEMON survived the curbstomping they took in Boston due to thier own idiocy.[/quote'] I'm guessing you're referring to the Demonflame Incident in 1986? The DEMON plan that partially failed only because the secret demigod patron of VIPER had a prophetic vision of it and ordered a virtual army of VIPER agents to intervene? With respect, I must say that I have difficulty viewing that as an example of DEMON's incompetence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... I'm guessing you're referring to the Demonflame Incident in 1986? The DEMON plan that partially failed only because the secret demigod patron of VIPER had a prophetic vision of it and ordered a virtual army of VIPER agents to intervene? With respect, I must say that I have difficulty viewing that as an example of DEMON's incompetence. No I'm referring to the incident described in the DEMON sourcebook where they conducted a large ritual slaying on Beacon Hill, which if memory serves is smack in the middle of the high rent district in Boston, that was described as sending multicoloured flames miles into the sky. Now, leaving aside for the moment the question of how they managed to cart several dozen unwilling victims into the middle of a rich neighborhood without anybody noticing, surely that pillar of flame is gonna alert authorities that something is up rather quickly? By all rights they ought to have been hip deep in law enforcement officials and superheroes but the book says DEMON was able to pull off thier ritual. 'Hey lets commit mass murder in a well policed area in a fashion that cannot go unnoticed by everybody for miles around' sure sounds like incompetence to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csyphrett Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... I think you guys are talking about the same thing, and Luther Black was technically broken by Viper and the Justice Squadron battling through an army of demons, morbanes, and others in a warped skyscraper after taking a little power from one of the Edom servants. CES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychonaut_raz Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... I’d suggest it would be more survivable if the PCs arrive after the Kings have moved on. There’s no reason they (or Black' date=' now that he’s one of them) would stick around Earth when they’ve got a whole universe to play in. They used the world like we would use a paper cup; drink it dry, crumple it, and throw it aside. Now the skies are red, the oceans are gone, and the cities look like a Dali painting. Only a few unlucky humans are still alive, unmutated, and sane enough to notice the new landscape. They live in tiny improvised strongholds and try to hold off the lesser things that are creeping through the shattered barrier between the Kings’ world and ours. Time and space themselves are behaving oddly, and it’s getting worse. Either the Earth is falling into the Kings’ world or the Kings’ world is taking over our universe, but either way the Sun’s getting dimmer and the meteors falling from the shattered Moon are screaming in a more disturbing way every day…[/quote'] I like this idea the best....gives a crystal clear idea of why they need to act, without having to come up with a plot device to keep them from surviving against forces they should have no hope against.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted November 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... Now' date=' leaving aside for the moment the question of how they managed to cart several dozen unwilling victims into the middle of a rich neighborhood without anybody noticing, [/quote'] Yes, nothing illegal or immoral ever goes on in the high rent district, and the police routinely patrol inside rich people's apartments looking for sacrificial victims. surely that pillar of flame is gonna alert authorities that something is up rather quickly? By all rights they ought to have been hip deep in law enforcement officials and superheroes Umm... they were. They were powerful enough to hold off the Justice Squadron for a day until VIPER showed up. (I'm guessing Boston PD wasn't much of a threat by comparison.) I really don't see how that equates to incompetence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... I think you guys are talking about the same thing, and Luther Black was technically broken by Viper and the Justice Squadron battling through an army of demons, morbanes, and others in a warped skyscraper after taking a little power from one of the Edom servants. CES No I'm pretty sure the book treated it as two seperate incidents. Either way, there seemed to be a lot handwaving to allow DEMON to remain a threat after all the people they'd have pissed off after those two seperate incidents. Or for that matter, to even allow them to set up those incidents successfully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted November 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... No I'm pretty sure the book treated it as two seperate incidents. I've got the book in front of me - same incident, started on the evening of August 1st and concluded the morning of August 2nd. Either way' date=' there seemed to be a lot handwaving to allow DEMON to remain a threat after all the people they'd have pissed off after those two seperate incidents. [/quote'] You could say the same thing about VIPER, Dr. Destroyer, Takofanes, or any other recurring villain. Why do they remain a threat once people know about them? Because they stay hidden most of the time, and have the power to hold their own when they do surface or are uncovered. How is DEMON any different in your eyes? Or for that matter' date=' to even allow them to set up those incidents successfully.[/quote'] Really? The villains in your world are always stopped before they can set their evil plans in motion? Doesn't that make for some boring games? Edit: Sorry, on reading that it came out much more snarky than I intended. I just genuinely don't see where you're coming from on this one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... I've got the book in front of me - same incident, started on the evening of August 1st and concluded the morning of August 2nd. You could say the same thing about VIPER, Dr. Destroyer, Takofanes, or any other recurring villain. Why do they remain a threat once people know about them? Because they stay hidden most of the time, and have the power to hold their own when they do surface or are uncovered. How is DEMON any different in your eyes? Really? The villains in your world are always stopped before they can set their evil plans in motion? Doesn't that make for some boring games? Isn't superheroes thwarting the villains evil plans the entire point of superhero gaming? Naturally as a GM I give the heroes a chance to thwart the villains plans especially if the villain is stupid enough to be as obvious about things as DEMON was. I mean if they were working in a secretive location someplace I could see it, but the book makes it clear that they were out in the open killing people out in the open with a display that could likely be seen several states over. I just felt the whole thing was poorly written and contrived to be honest. No offence to the author or anything, I'm sure he tried his best and all but it didn't click for me at all. Black's plan seems far to overcomplicated to have gotten as far as it has, there seems to be no good reason why DEMON hasn't gotten stomped flat in any of it's major operations (for example, butchering the UNTIL office) aside from handwaving magic. Perhaps I'm just overcritical but I found the whole thing icky and badly set up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted November 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... Isn't superheroes thwarting the villains evil plans the entire point of superhero gaming? Of course. It sounded (to me) like you were saying they shouldn't have been able to set the plan in motion in the first place. Heroes defeating the villains at the last possible second is as genre as it gets. And the heroes (and VIPER) did stop Black's plan, at least mostly. Black failed to assume Sharna-Gorak's power, was left physically crippled, and barely escaped with the aid of the Left Hand. I'd call that a win, tho obviously not an unconditional one. (BTW, I just re-read that section of the book, and I can see how you might've come away with the impression it was two separate incidents from the way it's written up.) I mean if they were working in a secretive location someplace I could see it' date=' but the book makes it clear that they were out in the open killing people out in the open with a display that could likely be seen several states over. [/quote'] Hmmm. I guess I didn't read it as they started sacrificing people out in the middle of the street, and 2 weeks later the heroes showed up. The ceremony started on the roof of a skyscraper - presumably screened from casual observation. Once the ritual got going and the "display" became obvious, the Justice Squadron responded and assaulted the building, but were initially repulsed. A few hours later, VIPER showed up and helped turn the tide. I just felt the whole thing was poorly written and contrived to be honest. No offence to the author or anything' date=' I'm sure he tried his best and all but it didn't click for me at all. Black's plan seems far to overcomplicated to have gotten as far as it has, there seems to be no good reason why DEMON hasn't gotten stomped flat in any of it's major operations (for example, butchering the UNTIL office) aside from handwaving magic. Perhaps I'm just overcritical but I found the whole thing icky and badly set up.[/quote'] That's fine; if you didn't like it, you didn't like it. (I admit it was a bit more Iron Age than most CU books; but IMO that's the nature of the beast.) I'm just genuinely trying to understand why you feel the continued existence of DEMON requires any more handwaving than the continued existence of any other recurring villain group? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellgate:_london this came to mind when I read this thread... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... It just seems to me that they're not being terribly subtle about the whole thing. I mean the whole mess on top of the Boston skyscraper aside, they openly murdered a bunch of UNTIL agents in one of thier bases (doesn't UNTIL have agents to prevent that sort of thing ) and basically don't seem to be that careful about avoiding conflict. Now I grant you, that's true of many other supervillain groups as well. However, HERO has gone out of it's way to establish that DEMON's goal is abbhorent to the magical community that even the evil mages loath them. So they're basically opposed by the entire magical community, have brassed off VIPER and UNTIL on top of it and committed an act that would be considered an act of war against the US had they been agents of another country. With all that being true, one would think they'd be taking quite a few casualties rather then encircling the globe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... I think I should point out that when I say I dislike the DEMON sourcebook, I mean I -really- dislike it. It's not just not liking the material presented but, for reasons I can't quite explain, I found the book really squicky to the point where I tossed it into the back of a cupboard because I didn't even want to look at the book let alone use it in a game. This is of course quite unreasonable but I hope it explains my distaste for 5th Edition DEMON. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... DEMON remains unstomped as a whole for the same reason the IRA remains unstomped as a whole in the real world: Decentralized cells, different cells going for different goals, very few public displays, social camouflage, Laws. It's fine you don't like it... but DEMON's plans are no more far fetched than, say, Dr. Destroyer secretly building AN ENTIRE ISLAND. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... DEMON remains unstomped as a whole for the same reason the IRA remains unstomped as a whole in the real world: Decentralized cells, different cells going for different goals, very few public displays, social camouflage, Laws. It's fine you don't like it... but DEMON's plans are no more far fetched than, say, Dr. Destroyer secretly building AN ENTIRE ISLAND. I'd say it was slightly OTT for even a superhero campaign but I'll just agree to disagree on that one. Not sure your IRA example works though as the Boston incident was very much a public display, not to mention that big battle over the Baslisk Orb and what not. Still, I agree to disagree if only to avoid huge arguments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted November 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... It just seems to me that they're not being terribly subtle about the whole thing. I mean the whole mess on top of the Boston skyscraper aside, they openly murdered a bunch of UNTIL agents in one of thier bases (doesn't UNTIL have agents to prevent that sort of thing ) and basically don't seem to be that careful about avoiding conflict. Now I grant you, that's true of many other supervillain groups as well. However, HERO has gone out of it's way to establish that DEMON's goal is abbhorent to the magical community that even the evil mages loath them. So they're basically opposed by the entire magical community, have brassed off VIPER and UNTIL on top of it and committed an act that would be considered an act of war against the US had they been agents of another country. With all that being true, one would think they'd be taking quite a few casualties rather then encircling the globe. Fair enough. Personally, I still don't think it's any more OTT than some VIPER plots I could name. Also most of the world - even the mystic community - has no idea about DEMON's real leadership or true goals. Black's perfectly happy to sacrifice cultists left & right (their robes aren't red for nothing!), as long as there's no trail leading back to him. And he's covered his tracks pretty well. I do understand the ick factor; as I said, it's a lot more Horror Show than most CU stuff. To me that makes for good contrast, but YMMV (and obviously does). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... I'd say it was slightly OTT for even a superhero campaign but I'll just agree to disagree on that one. Not sure your IRA example works though as the Boston incident was very much a public display, not to mention that big battle over the Baslisk Orb and what not. Still, I agree to disagree if only to avoid huge arguments. IRA: Heathrow Airport bombed, while Peter Jennings was filming LIVE. Accidentally detonating a school bus in another incident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... Fair enough. Personally, I still don't think it's any more OTT than some VIPER plots I could name. Also most of the world - even the mystic community - has no idea about DEMON's real leadership or true goals. Black's perfectly happy to sacrifice cultists left & right (their robes aren't red for nothing!), as long as there's no trail leading back to him. And he's covered his tracks pretty well. I do understand the ick factor; as I said, it's a lot more Horror Show than most CU stuff. To me that makes for good contrast, but YMMV (and obviously does). Yeah I like my mystic baddies to be more Baron Mordo or Dormammu and less Lovecraft. Or at the very least less 'horror villain crammed into a supers game.' That's my opinion and of course, I don't expect it to be taken up by anybody else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted November 12, 2007 Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... I'm torn between telling you "You're a genius" or "Get therapy." I game with him. It's genius. (Granted, there's often a fine line between the two in anyone fitting the former description...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alverant Posted November 12, 2007 Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... The Edomites would be milking Earth for everything its worth as it tries to spread. Supervillains who aren't psychotic and casual killers would side with the heroes to stop them. At this point the whole issue of morality is put on hold. Dr.Destroyer and Viper would fight against them in their own way while Eurostar would probably join the Edomites in some way. One issue that I haven't seen addressed yet is how Earths imaginarium dimensions (Elysum, Hells, Babylon, and Fairie) would be affected. The phrase "above as below" would be applied and I wouldn't be surprised if all four united against the Edomites, even Hell (Hell is for human demons, the Edomites are much much worse). I think some of the sub-dimensions would try for an evacuation of Earth in some form like the Rapture then try to break away and become independent dimensions. The Dragon with/supporting Hells and Fairie would become a dimension lord only needs enough humans to sustain it and allow the Edomites to assume his "duties". Elysum would save the faithful but would still be loyal to Earth which would likely cause their downfall. Same with Babylon. The only other ones I can see breaking away are the Pagan and some Eastern heavens on the promise of an exodus to a more habitable plane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 12, 2007 Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... One issue that I haven't seen addressed yet is how Earths imaginarium dimensions (Elysum, Hells, Babylon, and Fairie) would be affected. The phrase "above as below" would be applied and I wouldn't be surprised if all four united against the Edomites, even Hell (Hell is for human demons, the Edomites are much much worse). I think some of the sub-dimensions would try for an evacuation of Earth in some form like the Rapture then try to break away and become independent dimensions. While I agree with you that the Imaginal Realms would oppose the Edomites for the reasons you mention, in the official CU there isn't much they could do to help Earth directly. The Mystic World specifically states that the gods of the Parterres can't protect Earth from mystic dimension lords and the like. Their magic has no effect on powerful magic entities from dimensions beyond those near Earth, such as Tyrannon or Skarn. I assume that decision was made to put the burden of protecting Earth on heroes based here, especially PCs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted November 12, 2007 Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... Indeed, about the best the Imaginal Realms could do is each grant boon or item of Power to the strongest mage on the planet, hope someone finds the Quarternion Banishment for that mage to use and have him cast it... fast like. And then pray it works on Edomites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alverant Posted November 13, 2007 Report Share Posted November 13, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... Indeed, about the best the Imaginal Realms could do is each grant boon or item of Power to the strongest mage on the planet, hope someone finds the Quarternion Banishment for that mage to use and have him cast it... fast like. And then pray it works on Edomites. Or worse since the gods are shaped by human thoughts, would that mean that if the Edomites warp the human psyche then the gods will be warped as well? Is it possible that through sacrifice some gods will be able to become free beings able to separate themselves from the Earth dimension? Yes, their power will be greatly reduced and they won't technically be gods anymore but they won't require worship and they would be free of the Ban. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted November 13, 2007 Report Share Posted November 13, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... Do the Four Zoas(of William Blake renown) actually exist in the Hero Universe? Because those would seem to me to be the perfect foil for the Kings of Edom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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