Drhoz Posted November 13, 2007 Report Share Posted November 13, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... Dr.Destroyer and Viper would fight against them in their own way while Eurostar would probably join the Edomites in some way. *boggles* why? I suspect Eurostar would quite like a Europe to still exist next week after all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korvar Posted November 13, 2007 Report Share Posted November 13, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... *boggles* why? I suspect Eurostar would quite like a Europe to still exist next week after all... I mean, if there's no Europe, they'd have to change their name... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 13, 2007 Report Share Posted November 13, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... Do the Four Zoas(of William Blake renown) actually exist in the Hero Universe? Because those would seem to me to be the perfect foil for the Kings of Edom. Well, yes, the Four Zoas are the top of the chain of Conceptual Entities in the official Hero Multiverse. It's arguable whether they would do anything about the Kings of Edom, though. The Zoas seem to function on a Multiversal scale, and may not intervene directly to save one Malkuth universe such as Earth's. They don't appear to have been among the Powers that imprisoned the Kings in the ancient past. Also keep in mind that the Zoas aren't unified intelligences, but have different aspects which are practically separate entities, and which constantly conflict with each other on several levels. For example, I doubt that an unrestrained Orc, most destructive aspect of the Prime Avatar of Chaos, would be any better for the universe than a freed King of Edom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted November 13, 2007 Report Share Posted November 13, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... OTOH, the freed Kings of Edom are a threat to the entire multiverse, ultimately. So, I see the Zoas opposing them. . . just not in any way, or with sufficient promptness, to matter for Earth, or Earth's dimension. ( even the Prime Avatar of Chaos; while his unrestrained destructive aspect is entirely hostile to anything resembling human life, it does not threaten the continued existence of existence, merely the form in which it takes. The Kings of Edom threaten the ability for anything to exist ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alverant Posted November 14, 2007 Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... *boggles* why? I suspect Eurostar would quite like a Europe to still exist next week after all... In the CU update, it's said that Eurostar has become less interested in politics and more interested in causing chaos, fear, and destruction. That fits in with the Edomites. At the least Panthra and Durak will join up, maybe Scorpiana and Feur as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 14, 2007 Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... Well, while I strongly disagree that even the members of Eurostar are nihilistic enough to support the annihilation of all human civilization and perhaps the species itself, in any case the downside for Eurostar in throwing in with the Edomites is that they'd be treated no better than the rest of mankind. The published background for the Kings of Edom is unanimous that they make no bargains or alliances with humans. To the Kings our kind are at best food stock, at worst vermin to be exterminated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted November 14, 2007 Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... OTOH, if the attitudes of Eurostar are right, they might make good 'candidates' to be warped by the qlippothic energies of the Kings of Edom into utter monstrousities ( moreso than already ). I doubt they'd consider this a good thing, however. It'd be more like an aspect of your personality just turned you inside out into a tentacled-appendage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alverant Posted November 15, 2007 Report Share Posted November 15, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... Well' date=' while I strongly disagree that even the members of Eurostar are nihilistic enough to support the annihilation of all human civilization and perhaps the species itself, in any case the downside for Eurostar in throwing in with the Edomites is that they'd be treated no better than the rest of mankind. The published background for the Kings of Edom is unanimous that they make no bargains or alliances with humans. To the Kings our kind are at best food stock, at worst vermin to be exterminated.[/quote'] A good argument, but there are some flaws: 1) Eurostar has no mage on their team so they probably don't know just how bad the Edomites are. At best, they'll think it's some old-Pagan god who they can swindle and betray. 2) Eurostar considers themselves to be above normal humans so they'd get special treatment. It wouldn't occur to them that a shiny well groomed roach is still a roach that will get exterminated like all the rest. 3) The Edomites don't have Uncle Sam-style recruiting posters saying, "I want YOU (to be a slave or a snack)". They work slowly. The people working for them now were already psychos before they even heard of the Edomites. They corrupt people to do their bidding and it's far easier to corrupt someone who's already rotten to the core. Ignorance + big egos = huge mistakes. Eurostar would not know what they've gotten themselves into until they are well past the point of no return and probably past the point of caring. Your argument only works if Eurostar has a decent amount of knowledge about the Edomites. They don't. The only reason I think they haven't been recruited already is that the Edomites work slowly and subtly. Eurostar is neither. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted November 15, 2007 Report Share Posted November 15, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... OTOH, the freed Kings of Edom are a threat to the entire multiverse, ultimately. So, I see the Zoas opposing them. . . just not in any way, or with sufficient promptness, to matter for Earth, or Earth's dimension. ( even the Prime Avatar of Chaos; while his unrestrained destructive aspect is entirely hostile to anything resembling human life, it does not threaten the continued existence of existence, merely the form in which it takes. The Kings of Edom threaten the ability for anything to exist ) The Edomites still need to exist at some level, they are ultimately also stuck in Assiah as well - which the Four Zoas don't need to be in any particular state other than "around" which the Edomites would certainly leave it around, just kind of broken. Besides, there are bigger fish than the Edomites, things that truly do unmake creation. Quemetiel causes anything that gets near it to cease to exist effectively, including Edomites. Then there's the Solipsist. Now THAT the Zoas would oppose as the Decreator would unmake literally everything. If there's one thing an Edomite King would fear it's this entity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FenrisUlf Posted November 15, 2007 Report Share Posted November 15, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... Besides, there are bigger fish than the Edomites, things that truly do unmake creation. Quemetiel causes anything that gets near it to cease to exist effectively, including Edomites. Last I read, the Edomites and Qemetiel were both Qlippoth. So while they wouldn't necessarily get along, they might not see each other as enemies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted November 15, 2007 Report Share Posted November 15, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... Haven't read the whole thread, but has anyone brought up the Neil Gaiman story in Shadows Over Bakerstreet? Great little piece, with the roles of Holmes and Moriarty reversed in a world in the process of succumbing to Lovecraftian horrors. Very good example of a setting where man and Edomite might (briefly) co-exist, before the final curtain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FenrisUlf Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... Haven't read the whole thread' date=' but has anyone brought up the Neil Gaiman story in Shadows Over Bakerstreet? Great little piece, with the roles of Holmes and Moriarty reversed in a world in the process of succumbing to Lovecraftian horrors. Very good example of a setting where man and Edomite might (briefly) co-exist, before the final curtain.[/quote'] I read it, great piece of work. The whole collection is pretty cool, actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... I read it' date=' great piece of work. The whole collection is pretty cool, actually.[/quote'] Yup, I enjoyed the collection as a whole as well. Some of the stories are just begging for adaptation in a Pulp game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... Last I read' date=' the Edomites and Qemetiel were both Qlippoth. So while they wouldn't necessarily get along, they might not see each other as enemies.[/quote'] All the things I mentioned are from the Qliphothic World. The Edomites are kind of at the bottom of that chain. In fact if you go back far enough the Kings started in a realm in Assiah; And then that realm went into oblivion (Becoming Qliphothic), and the Kings moved on and through other Realms like Earth, making things go not so well. And then they were imprisoned in "prison dimensions" and "barren worlds" -- most of this is infered rather than stated out right from Arcane Adversaries. So, you could assume the Kings aren't native Qliphothic Entities, unlike the Solipsist and Quemetiel which are inherent and "native" to that realm. And by strict definition EVERYTHING is an enemy to those two entities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... Last I read' date=' the Edomites and Qemetiel were both Qlippoth. So while they wouldn't necessarily get along, they might not see each other as enemies.[/quote'] Actually, DEMON made it fairly clear that not all the Qlippothic forces cooperate. In particular, the Ravens of Dissolution were among the forces that confined the Kings of Edom to their prisons in the early cosmos, and they are basically scavengers that circle Qumetiel. I don't really see Qumetiel getting along with anything, as they are pretty much mindless, having no intent or desire other than consumption of all existence that passes in their reach in order to prolong their own. As for the Solipsist itself. . . *he* has intent, but I doubt he interacts in any meaningful way with anything on a lower order of existence than 'cosmic archetype'. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... As for whether the Edomites are native or alien. . . I'd say the distinction is moot. They have embraced the Qlippoth, which is to say, Unbeing. Their continued 'existence' is solely as an aspect and agent of multiversal decay. There is nothing left of them that is not Qlippoth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... As another point... while nothing in the Qliphothic Realm opposes each other in a way we relate to things... it's more like a bigger fish comes along and eats the smaller fish. Edomites are Qliphothic guppies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... No, the Kings of Edom are sharks in that sea. The guppies would be things like what Cloaca is turning into. Its just, there's sharks, and then there's kraken. . . and then there's Godzilla. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... From the Arcane Adversaries descriptions, Edomites seem to range from guppies (well, more like piranha) up to megalodonts, and indeed, even kaiju at the upper end. On that scale Quemetiel is probably the Midgard Serpent. (BTW I think it's rather cool that we've gotten into a pseudo-metaphysical discussion over a completely fictional roleplaying game universe.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matrix3 Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... Haven't read the whole thread' date=' but has anyone brought up the Neil Gaiman story in Shadows Over Bakerstreet? Great little piece, with the roles of Holmes and Moriarty reversed in a world in the process of succumbing to Lovecraftian horrors. Very good example of a setting where man and Edomite might (briefly) co-exist, before the final curtain.[/quote'] Yes, "A Study in Emerald", a great story which Neil posted as a free PDF on his site. EDIT: People might also be interested in "I, Cthulhu" where a reporter interviews Cthulhu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FenrisUlf Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... Yup' date=' I enjoyed the collection as a whole as well. Some of the stories are just begging for adaptation in a Pulp game.[/quote'] Like one of the few non-Holmes and Watson stories, "Tiger! Tiger!" You know, the one wit Colonel Sebastian Moran and Irene Adler, together with some British on safari, hunting some -- thing -- in India? And I like it all the better because the words 'Cthulhu Mythos' are never mentioned. Why does every Lovecraft knockoff story have to have at least one guy with an 85% Cthulhu Mythos knowledge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted November 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... Why does every Lovecraft knockoff story have to have at least one guy with an 85% Cthulhu Mythos knowledge? So they have someone to hand the exposition to the reader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FenrisUlf Posted November 17, 2007 Report Share Posted November 17, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... So they have someone to hand the exposition to the reader. Or so the writer can contribute their own piece of mythos lore, to be neatly slotted in between the contributions of Lin Carter and Brian Lumley? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted November 17, 2007 Report Share Posted November 17, 2007 Re: After DEMON wins... Or so the writer can contribute their own piece of mythos lore' date=' to be neatly slotted in between the contributions of Lin Carter and Brian Lumley?[/quote'] The shredder, IOW? ( have only read one or two Lumley books. . . and have heard they get much, much worse ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt the Bruins Posted August 16, 2008 Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 Re: After DEMON wins... Are Quemetiel and the Ravens of Dispersion detailed in DEMON, The Mystic World, or some other book? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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