Why would I put Fast Draw on a superheroic character?

[JamesG]

Re: Why would I put Fast Draw on a superheroic character?

 

lapsedgamer is correct, the general rule is that powers bought with character points, even powers with the OAF Limitation and with a special effect of "weapon", do NOT not take a half phase to be drawn/readied, unless the character puts an additional Extra Time or Real Weapon Limitation on it.

 

See here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15887

 

and here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50075

 

GMs are of course free to house rule it differently, and I myself favor a house rule that OAFs must be drawn. But lapsedgamer's interpretation of the default rules is the correct one.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Why would I put Fast Draw on a superheroic character?

 

Because the way that Held actions work is now textually ambiguous. Some GMs, according to the rules in the hero system rulebook, require that any interrupt action where you are holding make a dex rolloff. A fast draw roll negates the need for a rolloff.

 

This is, in my opinion, wrong, because it makes people buy fast draw who have no business buying it.

 

That's a problem with the Players. Not the rules.

[Balabanto]

Re: Why would I put Fast Draw on a superheroic character?

 

No, Ghost Angel, it's a problem with the rules. This wasn't a problem holding to interrupt in the previous four editions of the game, so why is it a problem now?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Why would I put Fast Draw on a superheroic character?

 

No' date=' Ghost Angel, it's a problem with the rules. This wasn't a problem holding to interrupt in the previous four editions of the game, so why is it a problem now?[/quote']

 

It's a problem with the players when they break concept over a perceived Rules issue.

 

And if you're attempting an Action for which Fast Draw does not apply I wouldn't allow it anyway.

 

And you are also incorrect about previous rules editions. Fourth Edition uses the Exact Same Words when describing using Fast Draw to go first if both characters are using Held Actions. And note: Both Characters must have held actions.

 

Nothing, for the record, has changed regarding Fast Draw in Fifth Edition other than making it a Skill instead of Talent.

 

It's a Player Problem.

[Clonus]

Re: Why would I put Fast Draw on a superheroic character?

 

Understood' date=' but the distinction is between weapons and powers bought with a focus llimitation to simulate weapons. The rules specifically say that activating a power, or changing a slot in multipower, is generally a zero phase action regardless of what the special effect is. .[/quote']

 

Focus is not a special effect, though. It's a limitation.

[JamesG]

Re: Why would I put Fast Draw on a superheroic character?

 

Focus is not a special effect' date=' though. It's a limitation.[/quote']

 

And there is nothing in the Focus rules that says that a Power bought with the Focus Limitation requires any extra time to draw/ready.

 

Here is some more of lapsedgamer's post you were responding to.

 

Understood, but the distinction is between weapons and powers bought with a focus llimitation to simulate weapons. The rules specifically say that activating a power, or changing a slot in multipower, is generally a zero phase action regardless of what the special effect is. A half phase is the only time needed to make an attack most of the time.

 

Just because one character is pointing his finger and another is drawing and firing a laser pistol, there is technically no difference if the character bought the power with his/her points. The focus limitation does not in itself force an extra half phase, unless the GM says so. You would have to actually put another limitation like extra time, or maybe real weapon on top of OAF.

 

Everything in that quote is factually correct. Please see my post a couple up that contains links to Steve Long saying basically the exact same thing.

 

Of course any GM is free to house rule that OAFs must be readied if that makes more sense to them, but that is NOT the by the book rule.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Why would I put Fast Draw on a superheroic character?

 

Focus is not a special effect' date=' though. It's a limitation.[/quote']

 

OAF is the limitation. The special effect is "it's a gun."

[Tech]

Re: Why would I put Fast Draw on a superheroic character?

 

I use Fast Draw on my superhero (and other GM's figure 'sure, why not'). For every point I make my roll by, it adds 1 to my DEX only for purposes of who goes first. So, that's what I use it for.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Why would I put Fast Draw on a superheroic character?

 

And there is nothing in the Focus rules that says that a Power bought with the Focus Limitation requires any extra time to draw/ready.

 

Look. Fast Draw is something utilized depending on your character's special effects. If your character has no special effect that would require a Fast Draw, don't buy the bloody skill.

 

If, however, you take a Limitation OAF the special effect of which happens to be something that you need a sheath or holster for, you have a reason. And, if your OAF Special Effect is something you need a sheath or holster for, the GM is well within his rights to say, 'you'll need to draw that, of course' and put a 1/2 Phase penalty on it. If he's feeling nice, he may always assume that as soon as trouble threatens, you draw your weapon -- but when the fit hits the shan, and you're surprised or something, your weapon is going to be away, and Fast Draw will come in frelling handy, won't it?

 

Also, if you don't put that weapon into a sheath/holster, then you're walking around with a weapon in hand, and your GM is -- or bloody well should be -- perfectly in his rights to have cops start whipping THEIR OAF (Pistol) 1.5d6 RKA weapons out and saying, "Police! Freeze!!" every time they see you.

 

Me, I'd be perfectly willing to screw you over. Repeatedly, if you insisted. This is what defining your power's Special Effects are ALL ABOUT. Don't like that? Buy 'Variable Special F/X'.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Why would I put Fast Draw on a superheroic character?

 

While there's nothing technically in the rules about needing a 1/2Phase Action to ready an AOF it makes some sense.

 

If you're playing a Superhero Gunslinger and he's the fastest draw in the lands - sure he can draw his own weapon super fast per the RAW. But when he's gotta improvise and pick up someone else's weapon that Fast Draw will not only come in handy but fit concept quite nicely.

[Balabanto]

Re: Why would I put Fast Draw on a superheroic character?

 

Ghosty, that's a problem with held actions, not a problem with your players.

 

The problem is that in 5th ed, if I hold until the DEX of ralph, and wait for him to do something, I have to make a DEX roll against Ralph to get the action off.

 

However, if I hold until the DEX of Ralph, and I have Fast Draw, I automatically win the contest and shoot.

[archermoo]

Re: Why would I put Fast Draw on a superheroic character?

 

Ghosty, that's a problem with held actions, not a problem with your players.

 

The problem is that in 5th ed, if I hold until the DEX of ralph, and wait for him to do something, I have to make a DEX roll against Ralph to get the action off.

 

However, if I hold until the DEX of Ralph, and I have Fast Draw, I automatically win the contest and shoot.

 

Not correct. If you wait for Ralph, who then uses his normal Action, then Fast Draw doesn't apply. It only applies when both are using Held Actions.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Why would I put Fast Draw on a superheroic character?

 

Ghosty, that's a problem with held actions, not a problem with your players.

 

The problem is that in 5th ed, if I hold until the DEX of ralph, and wait for him to do something, I have to make a DEX roll against Ralph to get the action off.

 

However, if I hold until the DEX of Ralph, and I have Fast Draw, I automatically win the contest and shoot.

 

Just having the skill Fast Draw in that situation does not guarantee success.

 

See Archemoo's previous response.

 

In the situation where 2 characters are holding an action and 1 has Fast Draw it just becomes a Fast Draw vs. DEX roll contest. Since Fast Draw is based on DEX it is still essentially a DEX vs. DEX contest. Having Fast Draw just makes the cost and choice of the appropriate skill levels more economical.

 

Per 5er page 70:

 

2 +1 with single Skill or Characteristic (DEX) Roll

5 +1 with a group of similar Skills (like Agility Skills)

10 +1 Overall

 

The 5 point skill level seems like a better fit than the 2 point one.

 

But is it?

 

It is as long as the character has the appropriate skill to apply it to. The 5 point level cannot be applied to a Characteristic Roll. Only the 2 point and 10 point (Overall) levels can be used that way.

 

If Fast Draw Guy faces off vs. a DEX-Only guy (character without Fast Draw) in a mutual held action stare off both characters are still essentially just making DEX rolls. Fast Draw Guy just has the option of applying any Agility Skill Levels he might have to the roll where DEX-Only guy can only apply 2 point DEX or Overall Levels to the roll.

 

EDIT.

 

Extra Time can also be used to get bonuses to Skill Rolls. This rule (5er page 45) does not apply to Characteristic Rolls.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Why would I put Fast Draw on a superheroic character?

 

Ghosty, that's a problem with held actions, not a problem with your players.

 

The problem is that in 5th ed, if I hold until the DEX of ralph, and wait for him to do something, I have to make a DEX roll against Ralph to get the action off.

 

However, if I hold until the DEX of Ralph, and I have Fast Draw, I automatically win the contest and shoot.

 

Archermoo has already pointed out how wrong you are.

 

But since you insist it is a 5E issue I think I'll press it.

 

Fast Draw, Held Actions, Going First, et al. works the same in 5E as it did in 4E. NO CHANGE. They even use the same wording of the same set of rules listed under Fast Draw.

 

You misrecollection of the rules aside. . .

 

For The DEX Off:

1) Both Characters must have a held action

2) You roll a Dex Roll to determine who goes first.

3) Those performing a Defensive Action automatically go first.

 

For those with Fast Draw:

1) Both Characters must have a held action

2) You must succeed at a Fast Draw Roll to go first, it is not automatic.

 

Please read the rules before attempting to quote them at people.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Why would I put Fast Draw on a superheroic character?

 

Look. Fast Draw is something utilized depending on your character's special effects. If your character has no special effect that would require a Fast Draw, don't buy the bloody skill.

 

If, however, you take a Limitation OAF the special effect of which happens to be something that you need a sheath or holster for, you have a reason. And, if your OAF Special Effect is something you need a sheath or holster for, the GM is well within his rights to say, 'you'll need to draw that, of course' and put a 1/2 Phase penalty on it. If he's feeling nice, he may always assume that as soon as trouble threatens, you draw your weapon -- but when the fit hits the shan, and you're surprised or something, your weapon is going to be away, and Fast Draw will come in frelling handy, won't it?

 

Also, if you don't put that weapon into a sheath/holster, then you're walking around with a weapon in hand, and your GM is -- or bloody well should be -- perfectly in his rights to have cops start whipping THEIR OAF (Pistol) 1.5d6 RKA weapons out and saying, "Police! Freeze!!" every time they see you.

 

Me, I'd be perfectly willing to screw you over. Repeatedly, if you insisted. This is what defining your power's Special Effects are ALL ABOUT. Don't like that? Buy 'Variable Special F/X'.

 

Though I agree with your logic, and have stated that I would consider doing it that way, I have to insist that there is nothing in the rules to support what you are saying here. In fact, the rules say just the oppposite. That being said, it might add something to do it the way you suggest. If you were GMing me, I would fork over the points for Fast Draw. It's your world, and I just want to play in it.

 

My question was why is this skill showing up on official published characters written for the CU setting. I can go with it fits the character concept, but unless my GM has your philosophy, and voices it, I could just as well leave the skill off and get away with 85% of what I want to do with the character. The links provided by James G above indicate that the designer of the game does not share your philosophy. It seemed mildly inconsistent to me, but not Earth shattering.

 

By the way, thanks for all the input folks.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Why would I put Fast Draw on a superheroic character?

 

Were Clips mentioned?

 

If you buy charges with Clips it takes 1/2 Phase to "change clips" even in Superheroic games. Gadget Supers with Clips can use Fast Draw to do that as a 0-Phase Action.

 

I haven't looked for the official builds that use Fast Draw, so I can't say that's what they're using it for.

[JamesG]

Re: Why would I put Fast Draw on a superheroic character?

 

However' date=' if I hold until the DEX of Ralph, and I have Fast Draw, I automatically win the contest and shoot.[/quote']

 

This is not correct, though the wording in the rulebook is far from clear. But basically all Fast Draw does is substitute for DEX in an opposed roll contest to see who goes first. See here in the FAQ for clarification:

http://www.herogames.com/rulesFAQ.htm?ruleset=&section=&keywords=fast+draw+automatic&dateString=

 

 

If you wait for Ralph' date=' who then uses his normal Action, then Fast Draw doesn't apply. It only applies when both are using Held Actions.[/quote']

 

Also not correct, though again the rule book is poorly worded. See here for the question of whether Fast Draw can be used in the contest to see who goes first when one character waits for another's normal action:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59942

 

In both cases, the confusion is caused by this passage in 5ER:

"If two characters simultaneously use Held Actions, a character who succeeds with a Fast Draw roll (instead of a DEX Roll) acts first. Fast Draw has no effect in this situation unless both characters use a Held Action — it does not allow a character to act before his DEX (to do this, buy Lightning Reflexes, or use the Combat Maneuvers Hipshot or Hurry)."

 

It would be better if 5ER had said what the actual rule was, something like this:

"If two characters are trying to act at the same time, a character with Fast Draw can choose to substitute a Fast Draw roll for the Dex roll in the required opposed roll (per the Who Goes First section on page 360). Fast Draw does not allow a character to act before his DEX (to do this, buy Lightning Reflexes, or use the Combat Maneuvers Hipshot or Hurry)."

 

Now that we have straight what Fast Draw does and does not do in terms of gaining initiative, lapsedgamer's original contention is more or less proved out. In a superheroic setting, where "weapons" are bought with character points, there is very little mechanical benefit to purchasing Fast Draw. You don't need it to ready your weapon, since readying an OAF bought with character points already is a zero phase action. And since a base Fast Draw roll is equal to a Dex roll, there is no benefit to substituting a base Fast Draw roll for the Dex roll when determining who goes first.

 

But if you want to improve your 'initiative' roll, per Hyper-Man, more Skill Levels apply to Fast Draw rolls than Dex rolls.

 

And as ghost-angel mentions, Fast Draw is still good for 'clips' based powers even in a superheroic settings.

 

But these are pretty minor mechanical advantages, and may not apply to the published characters lapsedgamer noticed that have Fast Draw.

 

But not every skill on a character sheet has to have real in-game significance. If Fast Draw fits a character's conception, I see no issue with buying it. Even if it does not really help a superheroic genre character.

[archermoo]

Re: Why would I put Fast Draw on a superheroic character?

 

Were Clips mentioned?

 

If you buy charges with Clips it takes 1/2 Phase to "change clips" even in Superheroic games. Gadget Supers with Clips can use Fast Draw to do that as a 0-Phase Action.

 

I haven't looked for the official builds that use Fast Draw, so I can't say that's what they're using it for.

 

Not quite. Clips require a full Phase Action to change. Fast Draw allows you to do it as a 1/2 Phase action.

[SuperPheemy]

Re: Why would I put Fast Draw on a superheroic character?

 

I try to keep my Superheroic games as simple as possible. Considering the Superheroic HERO games tend to be the most complex to begin with. Thus, in my games Fast Draw doesn't come into play very often. When I want a super-fast gunslinger (or bowslinger, knifeslinger, etc...) I buy a couple of points worth of Lightning Reflexes keyed to the weapon of choice. It retains the effect of benefiting the gunslinger's Initiative while eliminating the need for an extra skill roll.

[input.jack]

Re: Why would I put Fast Draw on a superheroic character?

 

Since OAF can be denied with an Entangle' date=' it could be reasonable that part of the OAF Limitation is that it must also be "readied" in some fashion such as drawn from a holster.[/quote']

 

Thats how its worked in every HERO game Ive played in, ever since "Espionage" came out and we got real skills.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Why would I put Fast Draw on a superheroic character?

 

Though I agree with your logic, and have stated that I would consider doing it that way, I have to insist that there is nothing in the rules to support what you are saying here. In fact, the rules say just the oppposite. That being said, it might add something to do it the way you suggest. If you were GMing me, I would fork over the points for Fast Draw. It's your world, and I just want to play in it.

 

My question was why is this skill showing up on official published characters written for the CU setting. I can go with it fits the character concept, but unless my GM has your philosophy, and voices it, I could just as well leave the skill off and get away with 85% of what I want to do with the character. The links provided by James G above indicate that the designer of the game does not share your philosophy. It seemed mildly inconsistent to me, but not Earth shattering.

 

By the way, thanks for all the input folks.

 

... okay, so you're NOT asking our interpretation, you're asking 'why did they do this?!?' Since you're clearly wanting an OFFICIAL ANSWER, we aren't the people to ask. Go ask Steve.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why would I put Fast Draw on a superheroic character?

 

... okay' date=' so you're NOT asking our interpretation, you're asking 'why did they do this?!?' Since you're clearly wanting an [b']OFFICIAL ANSWER[/b], we aren't the people to ask. Go ask Steve.

 

My guess is Steve's answer will sound a lot like "I don't discuss game philosophy questions."

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Why would I put Fast Draw on a superheroic character?

 

My guess is that Steve's answer will be, "well, I typically run it this way, so that's how I build my characters..."

[Enforcer84]

Re: Why would I put Fast Draw on a superheroic character?

 

My Guess is Steve will hit me again and say "Enough with the questions!"

 

 

He does that a lot