Stun/knock outs, overwhelming the combats

[runescience]

Hi gang. If this question has been posted before than please bear with me.

 

point levels of chars are 66 - 84 for heroes, and 25 to 50 for enemies.

 

my players are currently ranging from 1-3 armor, their weapons range from 1 1/2 d6k to 2d6+1k.

 

Enemy armor is also 1-3 & swords/weapons range from 1d6k to 2d6k.

 

I use standards 1d6-1 for stun.

 

Im noticing that most strikes are resolved as no damage getting armor, or knockouts. rarely anywhere in between and rarely any deaths except when players coup de grace the unconscious .

 

What do you guys do for resolving combats?

Hit locations? ignore stun completely? used x3 for stun instead of rolling? more options?

 

I am running for hero newbies.

 

thanks in advance?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stun/knock outs, overwhelming the combats

 

I don't see a problem with cobat loss commonly being a KO rather than a kill. The game strives to emulate heroic fiction and cinematic realism. How many times has Conan been knocked our in combat? He can only be killed once. The fact that Hero combat tends to end with a KO rather than a kill doesn't bother me at all.

 

If you want more kills, have the enemy emulate the player's standard procedure of coup de grace. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Stun/knock outs, overwhelming the combats

 

I'd strongly suggest using Hit Locations & Sectional Armor for a campaign at that level. The location rules shift the Stun Lotto around a bit in a way that is really beneficial to a low powered game.

 

You also might consider increasing the non resistant defenses. Your campaign has a pretty nasty Damage to Defense ratio already, which seems to me to suggest that a fair bit of Body damage is getting done, but the foes are getting knocked out first anyway. The Location Rules will help with this, as the highest STUN locations also do more Body, and the Low Body & Stun Locations like the arms tend to eat up a lot of hits due to placement on the bell chart.

 

Adopting the Impairing & Disabling Rules will add a lot more bite to those Body-inflicting-but-not-otherwise-fatal hits, too.

You don't feel as bad about not killing someone if you've just lopped off their sword arm.

Even if you don't really apply the rules, just assuming that you're using the optional Bleeding rules inm the campaign enacts a shift too, because you end up bleeding even if you still have Body... You actually have to take care of first aid and such, and it can be safely assumed that most of the "Knocked out and badly wounded" crowd of badguys simply haven't bled out yet.

 

Finally...

Remember that in the Real World , most injuries from battle wounds didn't kill you on the field...most of the time what got you was blood loss, shock or infection, often days later.

[Comic]

Re: Stun/knock outs, overwhelming the combats

 

The players could spend points on negotiating skills, and avoid battle altogether.

 

If they've had enough battles that they're getting bored of their consistent ability to knock out their enemies, adding 'strong reputation' to them to help leverage negotiations their way could help, too.

 

Just saying.

[Netzilla]

Re: Stun/knock outs, overwhelming the combats

 

In addition to the above ideas, another that I gleefully stole from someone on the old Champs mailing list was to give all minor npcs the following Disadvantage:

 

Mere Mortal

Physical Limitation: Character takes x2 BODY from any Attack damage that penetrates defense; Frequently (10); Fully (10).

 

Example: Joe (a thug) is hit in the chest for 5 BODY and 15 STUN. He’s wearing a leather (3 DEF) and has a 3 PD of his own. As a result he’ll take (5-3) x2 = 4 BODY and (15-6) = 9 STUN. If he hadn’t been wearing the armor he would have taken (5-0) x2 = 10 BODY and (15-0) = 15 STUN.

 

This simulates how easy normal folks are to kill. Important combatants (all PCs and some NPCs) will not have this Disadvantage. Watch out for your DNPCs, and Contacts.

 

However, as was mentioned before, it was fairly common to die hours to weeks later (blood loss, infection & other complications) rather than in the heat of combat. Also, in the middle ages, there were those who's job it was to walk the field after a major battle to find those were were slowly dying a painful death and offer them the mercy of last rights and a quick death.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Stun/knock outs, overwhelming the combats

 

I'm not 100% sure how you're running the combat, so many of these comments may be way off base. Please bear with me if they are.

 

1) Are you subtracting their PD from the STUN of the attack? You wouldn't do this if they were unarmored (not against a Killing Attack), but they do get it if they are armored.

 

2) What are the PD levels of your group? As a rule of thumb, I generally suggest buying PD and ED up to twice their base level. A warrior with 15 STR has a base figured PD of 3, so I suggest buying it up to 6. It's always seemed to me that going lower than that makes the character somewhat fragile.

 

3) Are you making sure they're getting their Recoveries? Picking up a few more points of STUN every 3 or 4 actions makes a difference...and if a character's really getting his bell rung, it would make sense for him to fall back a little to take some extra Recoveries to clear his head. Hard to do when you're fighting one on one though...

 

4) I also suggest using the Hit Location rules. It might seem weird to have people falling over unconscious when you're using the STUN multiple, but when they're hit in the head (and don't die) it doesn't seem weird at all that they'd go down. The added lethality of some locations, and really low STUNx of others, makes for rare knockouts.

 

Looking at it from a mathematical sense, without hit locations, and using the low end damage against the high end armor you have listed, and assuming the guy wearing the 3 DEF armor has 15 STR (and going by my rule of thumb for PD and ED), you should be dealing an average of 5 2/3 STUN and 2.5 BODY per hit. If CON and BODY are both 10 and STUN has not been bought up from there, it'll take 4 hits on average to bring him to 0 BODY and in immediate danger of dying.

 

Four hits will bring his STUN to 0 also, but in most cases he will have at least one Recovery before that fourth hit falls (remember, the first round of combat is always Segment 12, and everyone gets an immediate Recovery afterward), so assuming a non improved REC, he should generally have 5 STUN when he falls to 0 BODY...still up and fighting, but at that point, his enemies only have to harry him til he keels over dead.

 

Even without that last Recovery, he'll be unconscious and dying, which, in the final analysis, is as good as dead unless paramedics are already on their way. I would wager that very, very few people in the long history of combat on this planet have been struck immediately dead in a hand to hand fight...most lose consciousness and die a minute or two later.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Stun/knock outs, overwhelming the combats

 

I do one of two things:

 

-Hit Locations as AmadanNaBriona suggested; This makes combat more detailed and possibly exciting, but adds time and rolls to combat, it has the benefit of working well with less than full body armor - what armor you wear and how much suddenly means a lot.

 

-Switch to a flat x3 STUN Multiple; removes the guesswork, removes a die roll, and tends to put things towards the middle of the spectrum for Stun Damage. This one has worked excellently in many groups I've played with.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Stun/knock outs, overwhelming the combats

 

You didnt indicate which, if any, of the optional combat rules you are using. By default the HERO System combat system intentionally favors non-lethal combat. It is a heroic / cinematic resolution engine. You turn on greater lethality by turning on one or more optional rules to dial it down. Hit Locations is the heavy hitter for this as it instantly smooths out the STUN lottery and ups the BODY overall. The impairment rules go further and make residual damage common place and add a long term consideration to combat -- even a technical victory can be a net loss if serious injuries are sustained. Bleeding out is also a very real danger if you use the Bleeding rules. Etc.

 

All of these things will enhance realism, but at the cost of additional book keeping. It can also have other ramifications...at a certain point it makes combat an option of absolute last resort, and alpha strike / ambushes increase in popularity. Kill em first from surprise starts to seem like a pretty good option. Being able to deliver damage from superior range is very important. Stealth increases in value. Mooks are a real and fearsome threat because as vehicles for damage they are creditable. Melee can become passe.

 

The trick is finding the right balance for your group. There is a sweet spot, and where that is varies from game to game and group to group.

[braincraft]

Re: Stun/knock outs, overwhelming the combats

 

In real life, halfway decent armor means that most solid or powerful hits will incapacitate you until you bleed to death, and most glancing or light hits will only inconvenience you unless you get a lot of them. Getting hit in the head or neck is usually worse than getting hit anywhere else. The rules simulate this pretty well.

 

Also, as has been pointed out, it's a lot friendlier for players if their characters don't die every time the bad guys get a lucky roll. If that's what you want, you can ramp up the damage or ramp down the armor or both.

[Markdoc]

Re: Stun/knock outs, overwhelming the combats

 

I'd add to the chorus suggesting the use of hit locations - and note that if you have armour (or other resistant DEF) you get to add your PD to the DEF of the armour against STUN damage.

 

That makes combat a wee bit more complex (at least until you memorise the location chart), but be warned that it ups the lethality of the game significantly. Especially if you have skile dplayers (or foes) who can deliberately target the unarmoured bits.

 

I don't see that as a bad thing: fights in my game tend to be short and brutal, and that's how I prefer it, but I'm just saying...

 

cheers, Mark

[Old Man]

Re: Stun/knock outs, overwhelming the combats

 

1. Hit Locations.

2. Bleeding.

3. Hit Locations.

4. Sectional Armor.

5. Hit Locations.

 

I think that about covers it.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Stun/knock outs, overwhelming the combats

 

I find long combats tedious, and was enormously pleased by how quickly hit locations tended to end them with massive BODY to the unfortunate recipient. It has the additional advantage that you don't need a mook rule. PCs will mow the mooks down with called shots in no time.

[Old Man]

Re: Stun/knock outs, overwhelming the combats

 

Note that hit locations work both ways, so if your PCs aren't wearing helmets, they'd better start now.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Stun/knock outs, overwhelming the combats

 

Note that hit locations work both ways' date=' so if your PCs aren't wearing helmets, they'd better start now.[/quote']

 

Well, there's a stack of alternate rules through the Combat Handbook, Dark Champions and Fantasy HERO that specifically cover increasing lethality or getting rid of the whole "I knocked out the mook and all I got was this lousy t-shirt" mentality that seems to permeate the system. As KS pointed out, HERO is designed to emulate dramatic fiction. With that in mind:

 

Your heroes should continue to get the full benefit of armor, regular BODY ratings and STUN ratings for damage and such. Your minions (those who fight the heroes) may suffer from one or more of the following:

 

-- Double BODY damage from the Hit Location Table. If you use it, yes, combat becomes a bit more specific and takes a little longer, but doubling the damage (instead of using it straight) means that mooks can take full damage to a limb, or extra damage on a torso hit. This will greatly ratchet up the lethality of your heroes. You can then use 'regular' damage (or listed damage) for higher-level foes.

 

-- Somewhere in the text it suggests that Stunned = Dead. I never did hold with this one, although my players do know that for mooks, I often substitute KO with Dead, unless they specifically want to keep someone alive. As Steve points out in the book, there's nothing 'heroic' about dealing coup-de'grace's to your fallen foes.

 

There are some others in there ars well. My players eschew hit locations, something I find infuriating, but there are some battles I'm willing to let go of. However, for my Wild West campaign, I have begun using them, especially for cover situations. Dead useful.

[Old Man]

Re: Stun/knock outs, overwhelming the combats

 

-- Somewhere in the text it suggests that Stunned = Dead. I never did hold with this one, although my players do know that for mooks, I often substitute KO with Dead, unless they specifically want to keep someone alive. As Steve points out in the book, there's nothing 'heroic' about dealing coup-de'grace's to your fallen foes.

 

We always treated mook KO=dead (and mook impaired/disabled = KO), not for heroic reasons but for bookkeeping ones. Nothing drags out a fight longer than mooks who recover consciousness. How dare they?

[Markdoc]

Re: Stun/knock outs, overwhelming the combats

 

As noted, I use hit locations and keep a tight reign on the use of armour ("no, you can't come in to see the duke in armour: go home and get dressed in something suitable", etc)

 

That means the problem is more often keeping PCs alive than worrying about STUN.

 

As for Mooks, the same applies. Players tend to drop most of them with severe or lethal wounds as often or more often than they just knock them unconscious. Mooks in general rarely have the best armour available, making aimed shots practical and lethal. I've never needed a "mook rule" for the simple reason that I GM my NPCs intelligently.

 

A thug or a man at arms who recovers consciousness after having been beaten insensible and likely leaking blood from one or several wounds is unlikely to spring up and go "Huzzah! Now that we are injured, let us hurl ourselves into the fray against opponents who wiped the floor with us when we were more numerous and all hale and hearty!"

 

No, like any injured warrior with hardly any STUN or END, they tend to moan and try to crawl away inconspicuously, or lie there and play dead until their enemies go away. And if they meet the PCs again, their morale is hardly going to be high....

 

That makes the coup de grace thing relatively rare (actually, all but unknown) in my games and in addition has the benefit that when the players face fanatics - who do spring up when allowed to recover - they tend to think the fanatics are a lot tougher than they actually are (because they won't stay down). It also makes the players go "Wow! Those guys were fanatics! We had to kill them all!"

 

In too many games, all NPCs are fanatics - which is why there's this coup de grace problem.

 

There are a few exceptions - occasionally an unconscious warrior will stand up and re-enter the fray - but it is most definitely the exception rather than the rule.

 

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stun/knock outs, overwhelming the combats

 

As noted' date=' I use hit locations and keep a tight reign on the use of armour ("no, you can't come in to see the duke in armour: go home and get dressed in something suitable", etc)[/quote']

 

Very true. Of course, the same must apply to the NPC's - if everyone else is in armour, the PC's seem out of place NOT wearing theirs.

 

As for Mooks, the same applies. Players tend to drop most of them with severe or lethal wounds as often or more often than they just knock them unconscious. Mooks in general rarely have the best armour available, making aimed shots practical and lethal. I've never needed a "mook rule" for the simple reason that I GM my NPCs intelligently.

 

A thug or a man at arms who recovers consciousness after having been beaten insensible and likely leaking blood from one or several wounds is unlikely to spring up and go "Huzzah! Now that we are injured, let us hurl ourselves into the fray against opponents who wiped the floor with us when we were more numerous and all hale and hearty!"

 

Rephrased, they aren't player characters . But I agree. Only a fanatic (as you discuss below) is going to behave like this. In fact, I also like the theory that, should the PC's move to a standard of slitting the throats of the fallen "just to be sure", then they must have learned this behaviour from somewhere, so the opposition will likely have similar tactics. IOW, if you want to kill off fallen NPC's as a standard operating procedure, don't expect to get back up again should you fall.

 

That makes the coup de grace thing relatively rare (actually' date=' all but unknown) in my games and in addition has the benefit that when the players face fanatics - who [b']do[/b] spring up when allowed to recover - they tend to think the fanatics are a lot tougher than they actually are (because they won't stay down). It also makes the players go "Wow! Those guys were fanatics! We had to kill them all!"

 

This is a very strong point. If you overuse anything, it becomes routine. That means the stakes need to be upped to make things "impressive" again. How many times can you save the world, before it's just not exciting any more and we have to raise the stakes to saving the universe?

 

That's why most serialized fiction isn't a steady stream of higher and higher stakes, but tend to feature some episodes that are much lower key after a "major stakes" event has played out.

[Markdoc]

Re: Stun/knock outs, overwhelming the combats

 

Very true. Of course' date=' the same must apply to the NPC's - if everyone else is in armour, the PC's seem out of place NOT wearing theirs.[/quote']

 

Absolutely. Even off-duty soldiers don't lounge about in their armour while having a drink and playing cards. And stealthy assassin-types waiting to ambush the PCs somewhere in town are going to risk interrogation and/or arrest if they get caught skulking about in it - just like the PCs.

 

Basically the only people in my game who wear armour are those expecting an imminent fight and those for whom (like guards on duty) it's expected.

 

As a result most PCs wear at most, a stout leather jerkin (DEF1), or a concealed sleeveless mail shirt (since padding is minimal and it's made of light links, DEF4), if they are not gearing up for a fight. Barring head shots, that'll usually keep 'em alive for a brief combat, but won't stop 'em getting injured.

 

As an aside - one other thing which I find very useful is the house rule that you cannot stack free equipment with things you buy with points: so a mage can't throw a DEF4 forcefield over a mail shirt to get DEF10, and a nimble character can't add his combat luck to his mail shirt to get DEF9: they get the better of whatever defences they have, not both.

 

That makes a huge difference and IMO should be a standard house rule in FH games if you don't want incredibly resilient characters.

 

Likewise, a warrior can't buy 1d6 HKA and add it to his free dagger to do two-handed sword damage. If you want DEF10, buy DEF 10. If you want a one-handed 2d6 HKA, buy one. If you want free stuff, then you get to live with its limitations: that's why it has the limitation "real"

 

cheers, Mark

[swobeas]

Re: Stun/knock outs, overwhelming the combats

 

In my current campaign (started with 50+50 points) we are ignoring stun from kiling attacks completely. That speeds up combat a lot, as we also don't use END and therefore normally don't take post-12-recoveries.

I raised the DC of every weapon by 1, just to make sure, that some damage get's through. If a PC reaches 0 BODY or below, he has to make a CON roll -1/2 negative BODY to keep going. NPCs reaching 0 BODY are considered dead.

We of course use Hit Locations...

All in all the system looses some complexity, but IMHO the speeding up is worth it by far. (The campaign bevore the current one had fight's lasting for more than one evening...)

 

hope that helped:thumbup:

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Stun/knock outs, overwhelming the combats

 

Did I mention I also employ the Wounding rules?

 

Ego rolls. Lots of EGO rolls when people are getting shredded.

 

Heroes have strong wills, thus high ego's, thus decent EGO rolls, and the occasional Resistance Talent to help.

 

Mooks very seldom do.

 

If they do, they are rather nasty mooks, like the Huntsmen of Annwyn

 

But your average mook holding what was once his left arm has got a pretty sizable Ego roll to do much other than cower and whimper and hurt.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stun/knock outs, overwhelming the combats

 

I find the STUN rules a major strength of Hero. Games where characters are either up, dead or dying, but can never be knocked out, don't do a great job simulating the source material. How many times is Conan knocked out? He can only be killed once.

[swobeas]

Re: Stun/knock outs, overwhelming the combats

 

I find the STUN rules a major strength of Hero. Games where characters are either up' date=' dead or dying, but can never be knocked out, don't do a great job simulating the source material. How many times is Conan knocked out? He can only be killed once.[/quote']

Basically the STUN rules are a big point for the hero system, but it slowed down combat a lot (in my experience, exspecially if the players aren't very familiar with the HERO System).

In my current game (Warhammer) combat should be lethal and characters have some fate points to jump the grimm reaper from the scythe:tonguewav

so combat works fine so far.

We still use STUN for bar-room-brawls and Powers.

[sbarron]

Re: Stun/knock outs, overwhelming the combats

 

I find the STUN rules a major strength of Hero. Games where characters are either up' date=' dead or dying, but can never be knocked out, don't do a great job simulating the source material. How many times is Conan knocked out? He can only be killed once.[/quote']I think you're absolutely right. But in my games, only the STUN of the PCs and major bad guys gets tracked. Mooks, mini-monsters, and minions all get treated like the set pieces they are. If they take a heavy Body or Stun shot, they're dead. Shot to the head, stomach, vitals...dead. Fall more than a few feet...dead.

 

Tracking STUN can slow the game down a lot, especially if you're trying to figure out whether Goblin #6 is stunned because of a headshot, or whether Goblin #4 will be recovering from unconciousness this phase or next. Better to just let them die a quick, noble death at the hands of the PCs than to bog the game down with mathematic calcs that won't change the course of the campaign one bit. It's a game for heaven's sake. Make it fun!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stun/knock outs, overwhelming the combats

 

I think you're absolutely right. But in my games' date=' only the STUN of the PCs and major bad guys gets tracked. Mooks, mini-monsters, and minions all get treated like the set pieces they are. If they take a heavy Body or Stun shot, they're dead. Shot to the head, stomach, vitals...dead. Fall more than a few feet...dead.[/quote']

 

I'd expand this to simply have a heavy BOD shot = dead and a heavy STUN shot = KO'd for the duration.

 

Golden Heroes had the interesting approach that one hit from a superpowered attack or two from a normal attack took a mook down.

 

Tracking STUN can slow the game down a lot' date=' especially if you're trying to figure out whether Goblin #6 is stunned because of a headshot, or whether Goblin #4 will be recovering from unconciousness this phase or next. Better to just let them die a quick, noble death at the hands of the PCs than to bog the game down with mathematic calcs that won't change the course of the campaign one bit. It's a [u']game[/u] for heaven's sake. Make it fun!

 

I generally track STUN, BOD, etc. for my mooks, but this depends a lot on how fast the GM is with the figures. I also find it helps to have standardized mooks so the defenses are constant, and ideally make the defenses easy subtractors. Giving mooks defenses with activation rolls or sectional defenses really slows down the game.

 

As for Stunned, I keep a bit of space above each number on my "stun sheet" so I can put a mark if the mook is stunned, which I then cross out when its phase comes up.

 

The Recovery issue never bugs me that much, since I would generally not have recovering mooks rejoin the fight. If things look bad, they're far more likely to slink off and try to get help, report to the boss, or just escape. For that matter, uninjured mooks who see the battle is clearly not going well are also inclined to flee, not fight to the death. Again, I use my Stun Sheet for this. Once the target is gone for the fight, I put an X through the headnote. If he escapes, I circle the headnote. I casn add up the "escapees" and "downed bodies" quite easily after the battle.

 

 

But a general rule that the mooks get X hits and then they're KO'd/killed speeds things up admirably if that's the goal.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Stun/knock outs, overwhelming the combats

 

Frankly, one of the reasons I recently converted my fantasy game to HERO from a homebrew system is because of the wonderful stun system. It really makes it nice to be able to be relatively easily incapacitated instead of just killed. I like stabbed bad guys being stunned or knocked out of action by a non fatal wound.

Having your generic mooks of classes in which all basic guardsmen are alike speeds up things tremendously. I put a graph down on a 3 by5. and just notate things as they go. My paperwork is usually much faster than my players dramatic descriptions or decision making. Just a quick note here and there.