The intersection between Dark Champions and Champions.

[lapsedgamer]

I realize that the official position is that the characters in the mainstream Champions Universe do not interact with the folks in Hudson City, but I would like to think about it differently.

 

I'm not a big fan of the new version of Dark Champions, I liked the 4th Edition version better. I have always been more of a fan of low-powered superheroics than Avengers/JLA style books. Miller or Bendis Daredevil, Power Man/Iron Fist, and Batman's solo books are good examples of what I'm talking about. In Hero terms, I liked it more when you had Danger International and Dark Champions as seperate entities.

 

I picked up the PDF of Predators on a lark. I just like Mr. Long's writing. I find that I love it. These are the types of villains I would use more often than not, but they would not really stand up against a 350 point super in most cases.

 

What would be the solution for the kind of campaign I'm talking about: tarnished Bronze with more of an eye to street-level action.

 

Would you put the PCs back to the old 250 point level? Add a few points to the villains? A little bit of both? Has anyone esle decided to ignore the official position. What were your results?

[casualplayer]

Re: The intersection between Dark Champions and Champions.

 

As long as everyone is okay with it, it's good to remember that the Avengers, FF, Spider-Man, Daredevil and the Punisher all operate out of NYC. It's a big world.

 

Points make for a marginally good comparative when it's a stand-up fight in an open space. Terrain and timing can easily close a gap of hundreds of points, letting 150 pt snipers give 350 pt heroes a hard time.

[Vestnik]

Re: The intersection between Dark Champions and Champions.

 

I;m a fan of low-powered supers of about the 1970s X-men level (I think all but Storm count as low-powered) and I find I just can't build characters on 250 points. Not because I can't make them powerful enough, but because I like to have them able to do lots of little things, be versatile, and have lots of background flavor skills, all the stuff they should logically have and make them well-rounded. I mean, a Special Forces package is like 50 points, a lot of it on things like "KS: Military Ranks."

[Alibear]

Re: The intersection between Dark Champions and Champions.

 

A Super Agent campaign works well in conjunction with a standard Champions campaign.

 

edit: a 250 point bad guy might be a good match for 4 75/75 cops with access to big guns.

[Korvar]

Re: The intersection between Dark Champions and Champions.

 

I liked 4th ed. Dark Champions too, especially the prospect of the occasional cross-over with 4-colour champions. Putting a team of DC supers against a 4-colour villain who is basically immune to bullets would be an interesting challenge.

[JmOz]

Re: The intersection between Dark Champions and Champions.

 

I realize that the official position is that the characters in the mainstream Champions Universe do not interact with the folks in Hudson City, but I would like to think about it differently.

 

I'm not a big fan of the new version of Dark Champions, I liked the 4th Edition version better. I have always been more of a fan of low-powered superheroics than Avengers/JLA style books. Miller or Bendis Daredevil, Power Man/Iron Fist, and Batman's solo books are good examples of what I'm talking about. In Hero terms, I liked it more when you had Danger International and Dark Champions as seperate entities.

 

I picked up the PDF of Predators on a lark. I just like Mr. Long's writing. I find that I love it. These are the types of villains I would use more often than not, but they would not really stand up against a 350 point super in most cases.

 

What would be the solution for the kind of campaign I'm talking about: tarnished Bronze with more of an eye to street-level action.

 

Would you put the PCs back to the old 250 point level? Add a few points to the villains? A little bit of both? Has anyone esle decided to ignore the official position. What were your results?

 

 

Well a little bit of both, and if I may suggest while back to 250 points, I would also just use low-powered supers recomendation (100 point disads, lower damage/etc...)

[Psylint]

Re: The intersection between Dark Champions and Champions.

 

I try to work backwards. If I want a "realistic" game where heroes can handle, but not ignore high powered rifles and are scared of artillery (for the most part). I set it up that. I propose Campaign Guidelines with several different levels of "uberness" and use it as a basic guide for "balancing" things out. For example:

 

v. Low Low Medium High Extreme Very Extreme

Damage 4 6 8 10 12 12+

OCV 4 6 8 9 10 10+

DCV 4 6 8 9 10 10+

ECV 2 3 4 5 6 6+

Spd 2 3 4 5 6 6+

DEF 4/2 8/3 10/6 15/10 20/15 20/15+

 

The "average" hero should be Medium in all cases, shifts "right" are qualified by equivalent shifts "left." The antagonists are built so that even someone throwing out 6d6 will eventually knock them out (in most cases), and each shift "right" is a significant benefit. In damage for example, this usually means that a person with High Damage defeats most opponents in at least 1 fewer attacks than someone with Medium damage.

 

This system, still not fully tweaked, requires some rather bizarre antagonist builds. For example, my "senior mooks" are running around with less than 10 DEF but 50-60 Stun. It also suffers from an "eye ball check" Speed is really hard to balance, particularly when paired with high levels of OCV and damage simply because taking folks out quickly is great defense.

 

All that said, I can easily build 350 pt. characters with not more than 10 dc's and really like them. They just tend to have lots of other neat stuff a great deal of which has limited or no actual use in a campaign, e.g. when was the last time you had to make a Quantum Physics skill roll? or the value of that Persistent monocolor light sculpture?

 

I prefer limiting power levels in this way, rather than having to resort to making antagonists that regularly combine killing attacks or well thought out tactics. I'd also prefer to see Brick types take huge Stun Body totals and Damage Reduction than literally be able to bounce artillery shells off their hides, but that's just me.

 

Peace

[assault]

Re: The intersection between Dark Champions and Champions.

 

I'd consider going with 350 point characters. The extra points allow for more balanced characters. They also allow for equally unbalanced characters with more points poured into their combat abilities, but that is something you have to negotiate with your players about.

 

300 points is an interesting compromise. (200 base + 100 disads.) Use low-powered superhero guidelines as though building 250 point characters.

 

I personally favour 350 points (250+100), using low-powered guidelines, for Golden Age settings. This might work well for the kind of game we are discussing here. After all, I had Batman in mind when I came up with the idea.

 

As far as defences go, take the time to work out various combinations of PD, ED, Damage Resistance, Damage Reduction, CON and STUN. Find the levels that give you the feel you want. I personally favour combining very low levels of Resistant defences with Damage Reduction when I am trying to build characters that "aren't bulletproof". After all, Batman doesn't get taken out all that often, even when he does take a hit. In effect he actually has relatively high defences.

 

On the other hand, he should be able to take out mooks handily. Frankly, I'm not even sure they should be able to do anything to him on a lucky shot. More or less by definition, anyone who gets lucky like that isn't "really" a mook!

 

More serious opponents, like the ones in Predators, should, of course, generally be able to present a more difficult challenge. They need to be benchmarked against the PCs. The PCs shouldn't be benchmarked against them so much as against the mooks. After all, mooks are a constant factor, like the damage done by guns. "Boss" villains are variable factors, like superpowers.

 

Always benchmark against constant factors. Otherwise it's not meaningful.

[pinecone]

Re: The intersection between Dark Champions and Champions.

 

I realize that the official position is that the characters in the mainstream Champions Universe do not interact with the folks in Hudson City, but I would like to think about it differently.

 

I'm not a big fan of the new version of Dark Champions, I liked the 4th Edition version better. I have always been more of a fan of low-powered superheroics than Avengers/JLA style books. Miller or Bendis Daredevil, Power Man/Iron Fist, and Batman's solo books are good examples of what I'm talking about. In Hero terms, I liked it more when you had Danger International and Dark Champions as seperate entities.

 

I picked up the PDF of Predators on a lark. I just like Mr. Long's writing. I find that I love it. These are the types of villains I would use more often than not, but they would not really stand up against a 350 point super in most cases.

 

What would be the solution for the kind of campaign I'm talking about: tarnished Bronze with more of an eye to street-level action.

 

Would you put the PCs back to the old 250 point level? Add a few points to the villains? A little bit of both? Has anyone esle decided to ignore the official position. What were your results?

 

I call this particular creature "Street level Champions" i.e. DC with super powers...I'd say 250 is just fine...I've also ran it at 350, as long as people observe some build limits it works fine...the extra points dump into KS's and Contacts (and deep covers etc.. ) I usually require the hero's be able to endanger with guns, and like to see the damage on the lower side as well. The heros save the city by preventing plots, rather than slugging it out with Black Paladin on the town square. It can be very enjoyable ..if the players buy into it...

[Trebuchet]

Re: The intersection between Dark Champions and Champions.

 

We're using 250 points for our Hudson City-based DC supers campaign and it's worked out very well. The characters couldn't stand up to many 350 pointers*, but doesn't prevent them from being interesting in their own right.

 

 

*Our unanimous appraisal is that any member of our 350+ (most exceed or are fast approaching 400 points with XP) mainstream Champions team could beat all four of our DC characters combined in a fight. The power levels and combat values are just that much different. OTOH, a thug with a rifle is a serious threat to everyone but our brick (and even she'll probably some Stun).

[ghost-angel]

Re: The intersection between Dark Champions and Champions.

 

...While DC: The Animated Series is my least favorite 5E book (someone had to be at the bottom of the pile) . . .

 

The character write-ups in it do well to serve as helpful examples of low-powered supers.

[Gadodel]

Re: The intersection between Dark Champions and Champions.

 

I think it's about purpose.

 

For example, IMC; The Harbinger's purpose would be to assist or operate against villains in the 350+ point range. Whereas the player's characters would operate against villains mostly under the 350 range. However, it's not always cut and dry this way. For example, a character that put all of its points in martial arts might be able to compete againt more powerful characters whom only dabbled in martial arts. It makes for plenty of 'what ifs?'....

[lapsedgamer]

Re: The intersection between Dark Champions and Champions.

 

...While DC: The Animated Series is my least favorite 5E book (someone had to be at the bottom of the pile) . . .

 

The character write-ups in it do well to serve as helpful examples of low-powered supers.

 

I liked some of the ideas in that book. It is not my favorite book either, but it does have some interesting ideas. To me, DC:TAS had too much 1960's Batman in the mix.

 

Street-Level Champions is a good name for what I'm talking about. I would also say that you could play with the gray area there as well. If you aren't talking about the absolute JLA/Avengers class characters, I don't see why they can't interact with some of the standard Champions world.

 

Many years ago, I ran a game where one of the players was Moon Knight clone with some superpowers based on the phases of the moon. We had fondly remembered arc where he went undercover as a Viper trainee to get access to the local nest. One of his deep cover identities had a criminal record, so it worked well. The other players had various power and backgrounds, but all were around 250-300 points. They eventually took out a nest and had fights with blaster-wielding agents and guys in Turtle armor, but it started off as a street-level drug investigation.

[ghost-angel]

Re: The intersection between Dark Champions and Champions.

 

Oh I didn't mean the SFX of the write-ups for the characters. But the general mechanical levels they fall in to (Defenses, Damage Classes, CVs, Skill Rolls, etc).

[lapsedgamer]

Re: The intersection between Dark Champions and Champions.

 

Oh I didn't mean the SFX of the write-ups for the characters. But the general mechanical levels they fall in to (Defenses' date=' Damage Classes, CVs, Skill Rolls, etc).[/quote']

 

Understood. I like the idea of playing with the mechanics to get the right feel.

[assault]

Re: The intersection between Dark Champions and Champions.

 

Looking at the source material, Batman, Green Arrow and Black Canary all happily cross the line between "the street" and "the JLA". Hawkman could too.

 

Green Lantern, of course, famously reoriented to street-level stuff in the early 70s. He got himself downpowered for his efforts, of course. The Martian Manhunter was, of course, originally a detective (manhunter!).

 

There was no particular differentiation between "street level" and "higher powered" characters in the Golden Age either. The Spectre was as likely to chainsaw gangsters as he was to fight cosmic threats. Of course the Sandman, or the Atom, rarely fought cosmic threats except as part of the JSA.

 

I suppose what I am saying is that the separation probably shouldn't be absolute. In fact, in many ways, Hudson City is my favourite of the published cities for Champions. It's bigger than Vibora Bay, and more "normal" than Millenium City.

 

As I mentioned earlier, I would probably use relatively low-powered standard characters for a street-level game. 350 pointers, but built more for breadth than power.

 

Essential teammates for the combat monsters.

 

(Consider: 20 CON, 8/8 PD/ED, 3/3 PD/ED Combat Luck, 1/2 Damage Reduction. Adjust to taste.)

[Lord Fyre]

Re: The intersection between Dark Champions and Champions.

 

Isn't this intersection called "Dark Champions: The Animated Series"? (https://www.herogames.com/viewItem.htm?itemID=194323)

[lapsedgamer]

Re: The intersection between Dark Champions and Champions.

 

Isn't this intersection called "Dark Champions: The Animated Series"? (https://www.herogames.com/viewItem.htm?itemID=194323)

 

To me, not really. That genre book was more campy Batman than anything else. I harken back to the time when Spider-Man would take on gangsters and run into Shang Chi during the investigation. Eventually, they have to team up to take on Jigsaw and Electro. That kind of thing.

 

The way the 5th Edition CU is set up, Jigsaw and Shang Chi are Hudson City material, and Electro and Spider-Man are in Millenium City and they cannot or should not meet.

[assault]

Re: The intersection between Dark Champions and Champions.

 

Isn't this intersection called "Dark Champions: The Animated Series"?

 

It's supposed to be. Unfortunately the actual book doesn't do it all that well.

 

In any case, I personally prefer characters that are more at the Champions power level, even though they are built with street level scenarios in mind.

 

Damage Reduction is a key tool for doing that, since its effects are greater against more powerful attacks, and less against less powerful ones. That means you can build characters that can be threatened by low powered characters, and survive against high powered ones.

 

The other major drama is Combat Value and Speed.

 

Once you deal with these issues, building dual purpose characters is easy.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: The intersection between Dark Champions and Champions.

 

Here's an idea. It used to strike me as odd that there was so much "normal" crime in the Marvelverse New York. How overconfident do you have to be to rob a bank in Manhattan, when you know the only question is which superhero(es) get to you first? Move to Chicago, Philly, Dallas, or wherever -- it's not like the banks there have less money in them than NYC banks, but the risk is much lower.

 

So "realistically" I could see a sort of supervillain self-segregation, where the World Conquest type ubervillains tend to descend on NY, DC, and maybe LA. Meanwhile, the I Just Want To Get Rich villains avoid the main cities and go where the pickings are easier. As a result, superheroes get similarly distributed, with the Avengers and the FF watching the main cities, while guys like Shang Chi, Moon Knight, or Cloak & Dagger migrate to the second & third-tier cities, where they can do more good. (I can even see such cities offering incentives to get heroes to move there, not unlike the way they court sports teams.)

 

So maybe your Street-Level game is set in a smaller city. The heroes spend most of their time fighting Predators-level villains. CKC-level villains pop up now and then: maybe Superthief is tired of getting slapped around by the Champions and the Justice Squadron. Or Dr. Conquest needs a quick, easy score to fund his latest world domination scheme. Etc. The nice thing here is that many of the CKC solo-villains would make good opponents for a team of lower-powered PCs, without having to form supervillain teams all the time.

 

And then occasionally the PCs get to play in some big world-shaking event like an alien invasion or whatever. While the Premiere Hero Teams fight the enemy head-on, the PCs find some crucial weakness that allows them to save the day. This would keep the players from feeling like they're just a bunch of second-stringers.

 

Hmm...yeah, I'd play in that game.

[pinecone]

Re: The intersection between Dark Champions and Champions.

 

Understood. I like the idea of playing with the mechanics to get the right feel.

 

I've run Street level champs...if fact it's my favorite style...But not everyone "gets it"....I ran a street level at Dundracon once and it was Terrible....the players just did not get the "vibe"...

[Vann the Red]

Re: The intersection between Dark Champions and Champions.

 

Yeah, Street Champions is also my favorite (as evidenced by the piles of Batman, Daredevil, Power Man/Iron Fist comics laying about) genre to play or run. And I agree with the previous poster that it's a vibe thing -- that visceral connection to protecting one's home.

 

I usually go with 100/100, but I've yet to play one under 5e, so that point level may no longer be tenable.

 

VtR

[Vestnik]

Re: The intersection between Dark Champions and Champions.

 

Actually I think Iron Fist would be pretty expensive.

[pinecone]

Re: The intersection between Dark Champions and Champions.

 

If the players are with it 250 works just fine, even 350 is cool as long as defences stay below the gun proof level. The thing I ran a Dundracon was a mix of "I buy equipment with money" Vigilantes and Supers, there was even one "4 color" super. But they refused to act like crime fighters. And as comic book chars they were Way underpowered. I may have put a Rant in the DC area lo! those many years ago...

[lapsedgamer]

Re: The intersection between Dark Champions and Champions.

 

Actually I think Iron Fist would be pretty expensive.

 

Probably in the 350 range in the game I envision. The DEX and SPD of the other characters in the setting would determine the cost, as well as the level of defenses available. In many games he could be 27 DEX, 7 SPD easily, but I probably would set it up so that he could be just as effective at 25 DEX, 5 SPD.