SFX for Darkness with IPE?

[Karmakaze]

We've been having a gentle debate a the gaming table about what the effect of Darkness (to sight group) bought with Invisible Power Effects would be.

 

Normally, the fact that you can't see through the Darkness makes the power Visible, so... Would it cause some sort of glare or other occlusion that's just not obviously artificial? Or just make whatever is inside the field difficult to notice?

[Fenixcrest]

Re: SFX for Darkness with IPE?

 

As a GM, I would let it be flexible to fit character theme. A psychic might just make everybody in the field go blind. A different psychic might make the area "unnoticeable" as you said. A light manipulator might just make a big wad of "not there any more" that looks like a crater.

I'm not surprised it's up for debate =P

[archermoo]

Re: SFX for Darkness with IPE?

 

I would say that the main effect would be that no one would be able to tell who was causing the darkness field. And that it wouldn't need to be perceivable by two other sense groups.

 

As far as how to deal with a power whose main effect is affecting a sense group being made invisible to that sense group, that seems a bit more contradictory.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: SFX for Darkness with IPE?

 

We've been having a gentle debate a the gaming table about what the effect of Darkness (to sight group) bought with Invisible Power Effects would be.

 

Normally, the fact that you can't see through the Darkness makes the power Visible, so... Would it cause some sort of glare or other occlusion that's just not obviously artificial? Or just make whatever is inside the field difficult to notice?

 

Amusingly, we have this exact same debate, but I'm with Archer on this; once you get past the mental puzzle (as my brother phrases it, hands in the air gesticulating wildly, "WHAT WOULD THAT EVEN LOOK LIKE?!" Then IPE simply means no one would notice where the power comes from (i.e., most powers are 3 senses visible; IPE renders it invisible). If you want to present Darkness as something other than "field of darkness, oonk" that's more an SFX question.

[Karmakaze]

Re: SFX for Darkness with IPE?

 

I kind of liked the description someone suggested that it would be like creating an overlay onto whatever's in the darkness field to just not reflect any major changes, so it looks like nothing's happening over there.

 

When I thought more about it, though, I decided that I'd probably do that particular effect with Images instead.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: SFX for Darkness with IPE?

 

We've been having a gentle debate a the gaming table about what the effect of Darkness (to sight group) bought with Invisible Power Effects would be.

 

Normally, the fact that you can't see through the Darkness makes the power Visible, so... Would it cause some sort of glare or other occlusion that's just not obviously artificial? Or just make whatever is inside the field difficult to notice?

 

Sense Affecting powers and IPE don't always mix well, for obvious reasons. However, in this case I think its workable.

 

An IPE (Hide Source) would make sense, in that the occlusion effect is there, but why isnt clear. This is as good as a normal Darkness, plus the user doesnt out themselves making it a good stealth power.

 

An IPE (Hide Effects) is odd, but makes sense if there is an area in which people's sense(s) are occluded while they are in it, but the area itself isn't detectable. So, walking along fine, then blammo you cant see or hear or whatever. This is in some ways less effective than a normal Darkness effect because the OPAQUE nature of a Darkness is effectively being turned off. However, the ability to use it as a trap of sorts counter acts this -- normally foes not already in the Darkness could conceivably detect and avoid entering the AoE whereas w/ this version they can't perceive it.

 

So, I'd allow either way.

[Frenchman]

Re: SFX for Darkness with IPE?

 

IPE Darkness, usually with the Hole in the Middle advantage, is actually a pretty common trope in our games as the spell "Privacy Sphere."

Basically, from the outside, it looks as though everything inside the AOE vanishes - not that there is a crater in the ground, but just that all the people an non-stationary objects become invisible. From inside looking out, the effect is the same.

In our experience, we have never come across a situation where this was used to escape or during a combat, so perhaps the vanishing bit might be better changed, for some builds, to the people/objects teleporting, exploding, keeling over dead, or continuing whatever they were doing before.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: SFX for Darkness with IPE?

 

Sense Affecting powers and IPE don't always mix well, for obvious reasons. However, in this case I think its workable.

...

An IPE (Hide Effects) is odd, but makes sense if there is an area in which people's sense(s) are occluded while they are in it, but the area itself isn't detectable. So, walking along fine, then blammo you cant see or hear or whatever. This is in some ways less effective than a normal Darkness effect because the OPAQUE nature of a Darkness is effectively being turned off. However, the ability to use it as a trap of sorts counter acts this -- normally foes not already in the Darkness could conceivably detect and avoid entering the AoE whereas w/ this version they can't perceive it.

Exactly! The Hide-Source part is fairly simple and obvious, but the Hide Effects part is a bit trickier, but still doable. How you explain it via SFX is another matter.

 

To fully hide the effects, even from those within the area, is certainly wierd: You can't see, but you can't tell that you can't see - IOW, you still seem to be able to see, even though you can't. I don't know what effect would accomplish this, but if a player or GM can think of one, it can be done within the rules.

[Lucius]

Re: SFX for Darkness with IPE?

 

"Faerie Mist."

 

I've used this exact effect for a Faerie Glamour type power.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Shapechange to Palindromedary, Sight Group, Invisible Power Effects.....

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: SFX for Darkness with IPE?

 

We had a character in a Supers game with IPE Darkness. Everyone within the field was affected by Darkness (blind) but anyone outside the field could see through it normally.

 

The character was a one shot villain, however, so precise mechanics and balancing weren't really an issue. The fact that anyone outside could target those inside without penalty certainly creates a different dynamic.

[Checkmate]

Re: SFX for Darkness with IPE?

 

I'd go with KS. Matter of fact I'm about to steal this power for a Mentalist character I've been trying to make with odd mental powers, and this fits perfectly.

[Adventus]

Re: SFX for Darkness with IPE?

 

This comes down to how do you see? By reflected light. So the sfx is everything in the field stops reflecting light. You can see what you see is darkness because your eyes aren't receiving light. To some one outside the field sees a giant bubble of darkness because blackness is the absence of light.

 

Kinda cool. Darkness without darkness.

[ghost-angel]

Re: SFX for Darkness with IPE?

 

I did this once many years ago. I called it Brain Fog.

You just don't know a Darkness Field is there until you're in it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: SFX for Darkness with IPE?

 

I've done two different kinds of IPE Darkness. The first type is the "invisible until you're in it" type. Everything looks normal, then all of a sudden you've stumbled out of existence. This was the SFX/purpose actually; the character could selective "remove" sections of reality so that when you go there, everything vanishes even though that space is still visible to outsiders.

 

The second is the "it's not obvious what's blinding everybody" type. This was for an illusionist who could cause light to bend to brightly shine into a target's eyes and could make this light appear to be a normal reflection. Neither outsiders, or the targets, could tell they were in a Darkness field (i.e.: being affected by a Power as opposed to a normal environmental condition).

[casualplayer]

Re: SFX for Darkness with IPE?

 

Kinda hard to imagine but, unless you limit the Darkness field or have Personal Immunity, you wouldn't be able to see through it even if you weren't in it and you wouldn't be able to see who's in the field from outside either. It would be like Invisibility Usable as Attack with a Side Effect (Blindness.) Just a zone of imperceivability.

[Arc Esu]

Re: SFX for Darkness with IPE?

 

I have a Mutant Martial Artist NPC in my Teen Champions game with a power like this. Named, appropriately enough, "Censor," when he activates his power, everyone but him in a small radius (2 or 3 hexes from him, as I recall) loses their sight. I built it as a Darkness, Personal Immunity, IPE, No range, Custom Limitation: Does not block Line of Sight from outside the field (rated at -1/2). I built it this way rather than as a Flash or Mental Illusions because it was simpler and basically undefeatable unless you relied on a sense other than sight, which is what I wanted. As for SPX, the idea is that he can steal the sight from those near him to enhance his own senses... you don't know whether his power is on or not until you get close to him, and then your eyes stop working. Then he proceeds to beat you up with Martial Arts while you're at reduced CV and he has extra CSL (bought with limitationh "Only when another being is in the Darkness field). It was great in the first fight with him when the PC martial artist ran at him with superspeed, intending to do a passing strike, then he suddenly went blind. As I recall, he succeeded on the check to not fall on his ass, but it was good to really shock the player.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: SFX for Darkness with IPE?

 

A long ago campaign used this power for one very simple purpose- to obscure targeting. I'm puzzled by several poster insistence that this effect somehow generates Darkness that is only detectable if you're in it (or outside of it, whichever). Darkness with IPE creates a field which duplicates the game effects of Darkness but can't be detected. So you think you're seeing normally, but when you try to attack someone whifff! Also, you don't actually have line of sight so you might try a mental power only to find you can't

target your intended victim.

 

It's more about paying attention to what Darkness does in the game and not basing your interpretation on the name, sort of like Shape shift.

[Lucius]

Re: SFX for Darkness with IPE?

 

A long ago campaign used this power for one very simple purpose- to obscure targeting. I'm puzzled by several poster insistence that this effect somehow generates Darkness that is only detectable if you're in it (or outside of it, whichever). Darkness with IPE creates a field which duplicates the game effects of Darkness but can't be detected. So you think you're seeing normally, but when you try to attack someone whifff! Also, you don't actually have line of sight so you might try a mental power only to find you can't

target your intended victim.

 

It's more about paying attention to what Darkness does in the game and not basing your interpretation on the name, sort of like Shape shift.

 

That makes me stop and think.

 

You should post more often.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says the problem is, he often doesn't start again...

[McCoy]

Re: SFX for Darkness with IPE?

 

"WHAT WOULD THAT EVEN LOOK LIKE?!"

Alpha Flight #6?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: SFX for Darkness with IPE?

 

Alpha Flight #6?

 

Oh, McCoy... it's too early for your full frontal nerdity. Don't show that to me man, I haven't had breakfast yet...

[Fedifensor]

Re: SFX for Darkness with IPE?

 

Exactly! The Hide-Source part is fairly simple and obvious, but the Hide Effects part is a bit trickier, but still doable. How you explain it via SFX is another matter.

 

To fully hide the effects, even from those within the area, is certainly wierd: You can't see, but you can't tell that you can't see - IOW, you still seem to be able to see, even though you can't. I don't know what effect would accomplish this, but if a player or GM can think of one, it can be done within the rules.

 

I'm currently working on a character called Gremlin, who has an always-on Darkness with IPE (only versus senses with technological SFX). The visible effect is that the devices only see static or otherwise behave as if they're malfunctioning. Basically, the target can't sense it is Gremlin causing the effect (Hide Source), and may simply think his equipment is on the fritz (Hide Effects)

[Sean Waters]

Re: SFX for Darkness with IPE?

 

Darkness stops one or more senses from perceiving IN or THROUGH the area of effect.

 

Normally you know that you are about to enter a darkness field because you can see it, or otherwise perceive it.

 

IPE prevents you from perceiving the power.

 

You shouldn't be able to perceive witht he appropriate sense IN the field. That is easy: you don;t notice that there is a field, you just have a sense stop working when you are in it.

 

Far more problematic is the sensing THROUGH bit. If I am on one side of a field, not inside it, I should not be able to see anything ont he other side of the field.

 

IPE doesn't allow some sort of 'static illusion' or other oddness. As a 'straight power' I'd probably rule that it is just one of those combinations that doesn't work as it is muually contradictory. If you want to limit the power (to 'only affects those IN the field', or somesuch), go for it, otherwise I probably wouldn't allow it.

 

Nekkidcarpenter's 'affects targeting' idea is a neat solution; it involves limiting the power. Even then I'd be wary as you are (probably) getting a lot more mileage from IPE than normal given the very unusual situation - normally if someone is in a darkness field you wouldn't even aim at them, whereas here you have people wasting shots, and it is only a tiny step to a personal targeting darkness field with personal immunity, which is something I've actualy had to kill someone for suggesting in the past.

[Dust Raven]

Re: SFX for Darkness with IPE?

 

Nekkidcarpenter's 'affects targeting' idea is a neat solution; it involves limiting the power. Even then I'd be wary as you are (probably) getting a lot more mileage from IPE than normal given the very unusual situation - normally if someone is in a darkness field you wouldn't even aim at them' date=' whereas here you have people wasting shots, and it is only a tiny step to a personal targeting darkness field with personal immunity, which is something I've actualy had to kill someone for suggesting in the past.[/quote']

 

Affects Targeting is probably better served by using Images or CSLs UBO or even Aid DEX (only affects DCV).

 

After giving this a lot more thought, I'm not sure how to adjudicate a few issues involving targeting into IPE Darkness. If the Darkness is only perceptible from the inside, so that you can see into it and through it, but not out of it, what is fair for targeting? Should attackers be penalized for taking a shot when there is no apparent reason for their aim to be off? Should the target be penalized and the attack not, effectively making anyone inside a sitting duck? I'm kind of in favor for the sitting duck option, but this may make IPE Darkness too powerful for the cost... I need more play testing.

[Adventus]

Re: SFX for Darkness with IPE?

 

I was thinking the other night that this would be a great way to do a hall of mirrors effect.

 

You can see. the only thing you see though is yourself.. i.e. The power causes you to only see the light being reflected from you. You can still hear the other people you just can't see them. You just see endless reflections of yourself.

 

Now this coupled with Images with IPE that affect hearing and your sense of direction would be all kinds of fun. It messes with where the sound is coming from and your sense of right and left , forwards and backwards.

 

From the outside it shows as a huge reflective dome. You can't see in, however you enter the dome freely. It is finding your way out that is the problem.

[casualplayer]

Re: SFX for Darkness with IPE?

 

I would just say that the area is a big zone of Full Cover for targeting and PER Rolls. Can't perceive out of the field, can't perceive through it and, because of the IPE, can't perceive that the field exists or the source.