What are "vitals"

[ghost-angel]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

few posts up, p415 describes Vitals almost exactly as you have.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

few posts up' date=' p415 describes Vitals almost exactly as you have.[/quote']

 

Oh, Osmosis, how would I ever get by without you?

[Kaze9999]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

How do you define the hit location "vitals" in your game?

 

There seems to be a generally held view that the vitals equal the groin. But I can find no basis for this in the rules. Perhaps someone can point out where in the rules vitals are defined?

 

Personally I have always felt that saying the vitals is the groin is rather silly. As long as I have been playing Hero System / Champions (early 1980s) my groups have always defined vitals to be more than just the groin. The "chest" is any part of the upper trunk of the body except for vital organs (for instance, the heart). The "stomach" is any part of the abdomen except for the major arteries and or other areas likely to cause a greatly increased chance of fatal wounds. Thus we have always defined the "vitals" to be a area from the heart down through the central torso and abdomen where vital organs are located (including the groin). In our game a vitals hit is generally considered to be a heart hit.

 

How do others define the vitals?

 

 

 

I think that I can provide an authoritative answer courtesy of the latest feature to be added to Hero Designer, a die roller, with a little graphic representation of the hit locations...I just clicked through multiple attack rolls until I got a 'vitals' hit, and...well I think the image is pretty clear (attached if the link doesn't come through):

 

http://img172.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vitalshitwn7.jpg

[ghost-angel]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

That's not official though

[Edsel]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

That's not official though

Indeed, but it was this result playing with the dice roller that got me to wondering if there was an official ruling as to what location 13 was. I was happy to see the p415 reference since it reinforced what I have always remembered the official stance to be. I believe that the UMA reference deals with that specific form of attack. In other words that specific maneuver targets that particular vital area so in that case an athletic cup provides protection.

 

On page 488 the Armor Coverage Table says that a "Short Vest" protects areas 12-13. This implies to me that the short vest covers the stomach and the vital areas of the chest. A short vest that covered the stomach and the groin would basically be bullet-proof diapers which is a really silly mental image.

 

While I cannot find a specific reference in 4th Edition it uses the same armor coverage table.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

That's pretty much the way we do it as well.

 

"The Vitals" can be any vital internal organ but we usually refer to it as the groin mainly because we get such a large kick out of it.

 

This was my group also.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

I believe it's supposed to be the groin officially. I consider them to be "vital areas" on the torso/lower body. It doesn't click totally with sectional armor but I don't use that system much. It's easier for me to suspend disbelief a little than to tell a player "Your character just took significant Body to the Vitals and is now a eunuch/neuter."

 

Officially it's the groin per UMA.

 

5ER page 415 Vitals is defined as any particularly delicate or vulnerable area on the body; this can include the groin, heart, large artery, or many other areas.

 

So Mr Chest Plate hit in the vitals obviously just got nicked in an artery somewhere, perhaps the thigh.

 

The problem arises when people look at the Hit Location Chart it makes a fairly logical progression from top to bottom on the body (head down to toes) with the Vitals location stuck between "Stomach" and "Thigh" and people tend to put Stomach as "Lower Abdomen Above The Waistline" and Thigh as "Upper legs below the leg joint" leaving a few inches of body uncovered by the Hit Location Chart - so obviously the "groin and large intestinal area" are the Vitals in most gamers minds.

 

Personally, I like the rulesbooks concept.

 

For completeness:

 

"Vitals" is defined as any particularly delicate or vulnerable area on the body; this can include the groin' date=' the heart, a large artery, or many other areas. The GM should choose whatever effect is most appropriate for the attack and the situation.[/quote']

 

As to what's appropriate for any given situation, I'd say we're getting into Beavis and Butthead Hero, rather than any larger than life cinematic game, when a roll of 13 equates to:

 

HuhHuhHuhHuh He gots ya in the 'nads HuhHuhHuhHuh

 

YMMV

[Lucius]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

Bizarre. I'll ignore it.

 

Yeah, but at least he's got a citation.

 

Is this one of those perennial topics that keeps coming up for discussion, like how to fix Killing Attacks and why STR and CON are too cheap?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Buying the "Not Hit Location" power for the palindromedary

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

This was my group also.

 

Mine too, especially after one memorable Fantasy Hero character who seemed to have the power '20 STR TK, Always On, Only To Attract Hammer-Based Weapons to Location 13'.

[ghost-angel]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

Yeah, but at least he's got a citation.

 

Is this one of those perennial topics that keeps coming up for discussion, like how to fix Killing Attacks and why STR and CON are too cheap?

 

It is indeed. It was a Fantasy Hero thread a little while back.

 

At least this one, IMO, has some legitimate basis in confusion as the texts constantly contradict themselves as to where the vitals might be exactly.

 

If a short vest protects the vitals (locations 12-13), but the vitals may be an artery hit in the leg (somewhere near location 14ish) does that mean a short vest actually covers the thigh somewhat? Or are the Vitals indeed that area below the belly button and near your waist? including the groin and area just above it.

 

IMO the "Vitals" would have been better off being place on one extreme of the Hit Chart or the other... if a Vital Hit were an 18 it would avoid the whole disrupting the flow down the body issue it currently creates.

 

Thus Hit Locations 3-17 are predetermined body parts, location 18 is a Vital Hit that tags somewhere very important or is just a really lucky hit anywhere. And then could easily be seen as only full body armor covering Location 18 at all, everything else pertains to a specific body part somewhere else on the chart (i.e. Locations 3-17).

[Beast]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

for me the vitals is that 3"wide strip from the bottom of the neck to your belly button

it is where you will find the heart, spine, good potion of your liver, stomach and major north/south running blood vessels

[Edsel]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

for me the vitals is that 3"wide strip from the bottom of the neck to your belly button

it is where you will find the heart, spine, good potion of your liver, stomach and major north/south running blood vessels

That just about perfectly agrees with my line of thinking about it.

[Beast]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

I seem to remember that from The Morrow Project and the hit location chart they had

 

That just about perfectly agrees with my line of thinking about it.

[Comic]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

Vitals: anything that, if it were on a sheep, one would find in haggis.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

 

Thanks, comic.

[Toadmaster]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

I like the concept that Vitals is a good shot in the torso area, however the hit location chart pretty much says NADS dude you got hit in the NADS. Of course there are also those who suggest "vitals" as put on the hit location chart should extend to 14 and an 11- chance on a roll of 15.

 

 

Personally I say adjust the hit location chart so that torso armor protects 13.

[Edsel]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

On page 488 the Armor Coverage Table says that a "Short Vest" protects areas 12-13. This implies to me that the short vest covers the stomach and the vital areas of the chest. A short vest that covered the stomach and the groin would basically be bullet-proof diapers which is a really silly mental image.

I still think that this is the strongest evidence that 13 is not necessarily the nads.

[Comic]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

Some languages lack words that correspond to anatomy the rest of the world knows is obviously distinct.

 

In Polish, for example, the same word equally means legs and feet. (That is, undiluted Polish prior to strong external influence.)

 

In the same way, let's face it, there are 16 locations available from 3-18. I don't care who you are, your 13 is just not big enough to warrant 1/16th your total volume.

 

(And if it is, please do not send me photographic evidence. Again. You know who you are.)

 

So.. the 13 _might_ be, or might not be, at GM's discretion. And we all know how discrete GM's are. Unless at character creation time, you specify your hit location to be something special.

 

Which reminds me of the time I was asked by the other players to veto a character for my campaign, because the player wanted all his powers based on 'Stretching, One Limb Only.' And he had a complete character sheet.. with artwork. It was not good.

 

So, I guess the point is.. oh. Yeah. Haggis.

[MorpheousXO]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

This is actually a really good point; the thirteen can easily represent that rare "lucky hit" that just does colossal damage, like the rare puncture to the femoral artery, a hiccup as a piece of armor skips upwards and jams into the throat, a nasty shot into an unprotected arm pit.

 

Any "vital area" or wicked lucky shot could qualify without going into the gruesome details.

 

It is indeed. It was a Fantasy Hero thread a little while back.

 

At least this one, IMO, has some legitimate basis in confusion as the texts constantly contradict themselves as to where the vitals might be exactly.

 

If a short vest protects the vitals (locations 12-13), but the vitals may be an artery hit in the leg (somewhere near location 14ish) does that mean a short vest actually covers the thigh somewhat? Or are the Vitals indeed that area below the belly button and near your waist? including the groin and area just above it.

 

IMO the "Vitals" would have been better off being place on one extreme of the Hit Chart or the other... if a Vital Hit were an 18 it would avoid the whole disrupting the flow down the body issue it currently creates.

 

Thus Hit Locations 3-17 are predetermined body parts, location 18 is a Vital Hit that tags somewhere very important or is just a really lucky hit anywhere. And then could easily be seen as only full body armor covering Location 18 at all, everything else pertains to a specific body part somewhere else on the chart (i.e. Locations 3-17).

 

Here we go, all my problems (and fixes too...) are summed up in these two quotes. The problem with 13 being a rare lucky shot to a vital area of the body is that 13 comes up WAAAAAAAAAY too often. Happened five times in ONE combat (only combat I've run, but still!). That is not a rare shot. It needs to be down at 18, even though 18 is supposed to be a bad roll since lower is better, but I think this is a case of needing the really damaging shot to be rarer, so that takes precedence.

 

The proble with that is sectional armor, because if 13 is wherever, how exactly DO you buy armor for it? That's mainly a problem if you're mixing armor types. House rule that 13 (or whereever you put it) must be the lowest armor you are wearing? Other idea, DO make it lower intestinals/spine/jibblies hit loc, but lower it's multiplier so it's not as devastating a hit because of how often it hits. Then you're only real critical hits are headshots. Change hit loc 3 to vitals then!

 

Sorry, rambling cause I'm just typing as I'm thinking it. Stupid thought processes...

[Sean Waters]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

I've been married long enough that genitals are no longer 'vitals'.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

In the same way, let's face it, there are 16 locations available from 3-18. I don't care who you are, your 13 is just not big enough to warrant 1/16th your total volume.

 

(And if it is, please do not send me photographic evidence. Again. You know who you are.)

 

So.. the 13 _might_ be, or might not be, at GM's discretion. And we all know how discrete GM's are. Unless at character creation time, you specify your hit location to be something special.

 

Actually, the number 13 will come up on 3d6 16.2%of the time (35 possible rolls total 13; there are 216 possibilities in aggregate), so that's almost 1/6 of the time.

 

So' date=' I guess the point is.. oh. Yeah. Haggis.[/quote']

 

Well, my point only serves to reinforce your point, and the haggis analogy is as good as any.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

I've been married long enough that genitals are no longer 'vitals'.

 

Well, that's a personal problem. Can we get you armor to cover that, by chance?

 

As to what Morpheus was saying; I agree that like anything else, you should be able to 'protect' a Vital Area, and I don't necessarily think that "t3h 13" should be the nads, since that only applies to 1/2 of the population on a technicality, but I'm pretty sure women have a 13 as well. So I'm comfortable with the short vest option.

[Shaft]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

I've always treated 13 as a shot that results in damage to one of the following:

 

1) throat/trachea

2) heart/critical artery

3) lungs

4) kidneys/spleen

5) liver/appendix

6) bladder/genitals/colon

 

The short vest protects items 2-5. If my PC happens to be wearing a short vest, I cut them some slack and usually "target" the protected areas if a 13 comes up.

[Sean Waters]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

Well, that's a personal problem. Can we get you armor to cover that, by chance?

 

As to what Morpheus was saying; I agree that like anything else, you should be able to 'protect' a Vital Area, and I don't necessarily think that "t3h 13" should be the nads, since that only applies to 1/2 of the population on a technicality, but I'm pretty sure women have a 13 as well. So I'm comfortable with the short vest option.

 

I don't need armour to cover that: it never gets aimed at. *sigh*

 

That does lead to an interesting point though: what does armour cover, if it protects location 13: well, that isn't entirely clear, but it includes what a short vest would cover. The book actually defines vitals (p415) as any particularly vulnerable area - heart, groin, a large artery etc. The trouble is they are all in different places so, whilst it is OK for a 'did I cause a lot of pain' calculation it is less helpful for armour coverage, unless you define that as diverse bits of strategic reinforcement.

 

Anyway, there you go.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

I don't need armour to cover that: it never gets aimed at. *sigh*

 

That does lead to an interesting point though: what does armour cover, if it protects location 13: well, that isn't entirely clear, but it includes what a short vest would cover. The book actually defines vitals (p415) as any particularly vulnerable area - heart, groin, a large artery etc. The trouble is they are all in different places so, whilst it is OK for a 'did I cause a lot of pain' calculation it is less helpful for armour coverage, unless you define that as diverse bits of strategic reinforcement.

 

Anyway, there you go.

 

It becomes a problem because it's the only abstract hit location. I think the assumption is, or can be, that a Short Vest covers enough of the vitals, in covering the chest area, that it is assumed to be effective against all hits to the vitals. Short of subtables and sub-sub tables that overcomplicate the hit location process, it's probably the best we're going to get.

 

Anyone care to opine on how to compute leg damage against an opponent with one wooden leg?