Discussion on costs of Characteristics

[Guest steamteck]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Personally, I'm not making Power Woman pay more points because her 50 STR makes her so much more powerful than Energy Man. I'm charging 2:1 because no one ever makes Energy Man like you just did. 95% of the Enegy Men out there look more like this...

You'll notice that for 4 fewer points, we now have an Energy Man that is 8 times stronger than your Energy Man. He also does 3d6 more in punching damage, and has 3 more dice to attempt to escapes from grabs. He also has an additional point of PD. Did I mention he can lift motorcycles over his head? For 4 fewer points...

 

Why would a player not do that? Character concept? Then I salute you and him. Because I almost never see the concept of the weak character gets energy powers, without the obligatory "the energy changed the structure of his body, granting greater strength and toughness."

 

Yes, it does happen in games with good players. And I'd bet most of the people on this board fall into that category. But you are not rewarded for making a weak character. You are punished, because a character that doesn't buy up his STR is inefficient as heck. 2:1 goes a long way toward fixing that problem.

 

 

Interesting. That's NEVER happened with my group. frankly why buy up energy man's ST when hes not punching anyone. That extra ST will basically be wasted points except for the PD stun which could have been bought a little cheaper. My folks always figured a energy guy who gets into hand to hand with a brick or martial artist is done anyway. They do like area effect and damage shields though.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

The Brick has no disadvantage whatsoever.

 

[snip]

 

If he stays passive to conserve END, he'll get dragged to the nearest source of water and drowned, even if that takes a while. No Post12 recovery for him. Or just locked up. If he tries to fight back, he'll go out of END and then KO'd. If you are grabbed and cannot get out or do anything to the graber, you lose. Always.

 

11- is about 65%. She can just full move near him, what is he going to do? Half move away and fire? Next turn grabbed. Full move away and do nothing? He's running away and not doing a thing, proving she has the upper hand. And she can still pick up cars to throw if she wants a ranged duell. She could also do any of the "hurry" maneuvers, or just win a dex roll to go first and try to grab. Yes, she will not be able to grab him easily, but she can try again and again and he cannot do much about it. As soon as she manages that one 11- ONCE, he'll never get out (str rolls 2d6 vs 10d6 outright impossible) and she can do whatever evil thing she thinks of.

 

Markdoc's point is: Either it's a draw or BrickWoman wins. EBguy will either lose or run away. If that is not the definition of "better", then I don't know what is.

 

Part of the problem here is that the characters were built in a way where they could, under normal circumstances, do no damage to each other worth talking about.

 

If we reduce those defences to 20 or so - just to keep things even - then the advantage inbuilt to the energy projector comes into play.

 

We assumed that they were next to each other in the original scenario - the energy projector had to escape just to avoid being grabbed. If we assumed some separation then the energy projector has a ranged attack that will come into play, allowing him to damage power woman before he can get close enough to bring his advantage into play.

 

It is easy for small differences in an aspect here to make one or the other look absolutely perfect for one or the other protagonist. Possibly close enough that it doesn't actually make that much of a difference - I've never been convinced that it was necessary for me to do this though have often been sympathetic to the 2:1 argument.

 

Doc

[Markdoc]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

I don't have my book with me. Is your interpretation of Power Woman's damage strictly by the book? As we have always played it' date=' in the situation you are describing Power Woman would take full damage, the same as her target who can't take Knockback in this situation, which means that they would be in very much the same situation after taking that hit.[/quote']

 

She DOES take full damage from the velocity - no question. It's pretty safe to assume that she's not going to move the planet any.

 

She does not take damage from her own STR. So as I understand it (and according to STeve), yeah, that's by the book. Her target takes the same velocity damage but also takes the STR damage. You can of course also do the same thing without hurting yourself - though it takes a bit longer, by flying and whacking your target into something without hitting it yourself (Move-by rather than move through: hence less damage). Ideally, you do this to another member of the villain team, but the OCV penalty usually means something like the ground or a building is more practical.

 

You seem to be forgetting that even though Energy Man has to keep paying END on his FF that he can effectively do it indeffinitely. It uses less per Turn than his REC' date=' and just be grabbed and squeezed doesn't prevent a post 12 Recovery. Now granted if he keeps trying to EB her every Phase that he will eventually run out of END before her. Even so, I think that it is going to come down to, who gets the better die rolls more often. In the grab and squeeze scenario.[/quote']

 

Nope, I wasn't forgetting it: that's why I wrote that she couldn't hurt him just by squeezing. If he just keeps his FF up at max, the puny amount of STUN she can get through is not going to hurt him much - odds are he'll REC it all back. Likewise, with the puny amount he can do with his EB, isn't going to hurt her. However, she can do plenty of other things - all bad - to him, while he's keeping that FF going. His options are limited to pretty much keep the the FF up and hope someone comes along and distracts her.

 

Of course' date=' your arguement is based on the fight starting with them in a situation where Power Woman can open with a successful grab.[/quote']

 

No, it isn't, not in the slightest. I assumed, in fact that in most cases, he would get a deal of shooting in before she got close enough to start grabbing. However, his attacks are not large enough to hurt her in any significant way. So (see below) unless he immediately turns and flees, she is going to reach him, even taking knockback into account.

 

If they start at a range where she can not move and grab him in the first Phase' date=' he is perfectly capable of keeping the range open (assuming that no environmental factors favor either). Even if they are in that range and Energy Man takes no defensive actions, she only has an 11- chance to succeed in the grab. That is pretty close to 50/50 odds isn't it?[/quote']

 

Umm.... what, he gets to attack without using a half phase? Not in any game I've ever played. If he's using a half phase to shoot and half phase to flee, she's going to catch up with him in a few phases at full speed. At that point since their DEX, move and SPD are identical, they're going to be in HTH combat until the issue is decided or he flees. And since he'd require roughly 60 hits to render her unconscious (assuming she never spent a phase to take a recovery) it's not like he's going to stop her with his puny energy blast. Now her chances with a grab are less than 50/50 - Grab is a -2 OCV, so it will on average, take her three attempts to actually catch him. But once she does, it's all over, because while neither of them can do much harm to the other with their basic attacks, STR lets Power woman do many other things to the guy she's caught. EB, on the other hand, lets him shoot her.

 

They can start to hurt each other more significantly by haymakering (I thought of this already, too ). Again, it plays out badly for him. First, the DCV penalty ensures he's grabbed. Now, a high roll might let him stun Power Woman - but she's not vulnerable when stunned. The same is true of her: if she gets a good roll, he's stunned - and if he's stunned his defences go away. In fact, haymakering is Energy guy's only real chance, if he really has to fight: but again, the odds don't favour him - he needs a series of consistently way-over-the-odds rolls to triumph. She only needs one.

 

I'd like to say, I've carefully thought this through, but actually I didn't have to: I have seen this exact scenario play out multiple times. If the EB guy doesn't have some sort of movement advantage that lets him stay out of range of HTH combat he's usually hosed up against a brick, if their defences and attacks are roughly equal. It's one reason we abandoned the idea of active points caps - to be truly in-game competitive, a blaster actually needs more oomph than a brick. It's also why you don't often see in games blasters with a STR of 10. As already noted, whatever gave them their amazing blasting powers usually also gifts them with superhuman strength and toughness.

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

I love reading these threads - I'm an on the fence guy - open to being persuaded and often pushed over the edge by one argument or another and then pulled back again.

 

All that the continuous argument and the complicated balancing that has to be taken into consideration by the switches just reinforces the feeling that I have that the obvious change, if there is to be one, is to scrap characteristics completely.

 

 

If I am to comment within the current conversation though, Lucius raised the issue of adjustment powers as an argument against lowering the cost of figured characteristics. You could get round this by either not considering figured characteristics as viable for adjustment or consider them all as defensive powers (and thus double the cost to adjust). If doubling isn't enough to balance the lowered cost then make adjusting figured characteristics three or four times more expensive - we do it anyway so it wouldn't make it particularly more complicated.

 

 

Doc

 

Actually I ws planning on sugegsting getting rid of characteristics, but I'm trying to introduce the idea a bit at a time: it might be a biggie for some

 

As to cheaper figured characteristics - why? We will not be changing their utility. Sure the overall character cost will be higher as we need to shell out on stuff we formerly got for free, but the answer there is surely to start with more points?

 

To address a couple of points others have mentioned - although it is not a particularly popular or well enforced rule, powers should have a point of origin. Strength is a bit of an exception as it is all over, but EB Guy should be firing his EB from a specific body part. PW grabs that and points it away from her and he can't hurt her at all.

 

However, ranged attacks do have advantages tactically. Assuming the combat starts from some distance, EB Guy can potentially get in several hits before he is in danger. Bear in mind as well that KB could be a significant factor here as they are both fliers: If EB Guy flies above P Woman, and fires directly down, say from a range of 6", he's going to be doing, on average 5-6" of KB. I don;t know if you'd double that because it is straight down? Even if not then P Woman is 11-12" below him and can't get to him even with a move through unless she pushes. As long as EB Guy keeps flying up and hitting, he's going to be hard to beat.

 

Of course P Woman would be an idiot to keep following - she should go and hide somewhere, and make EB Guy come look for her...then attack with surprise. After all, her defences don't glow and crackle like his do

 

Doc D makes the excellent point about the overall build being sgnificant - the level of defences is quite gross for a 10d6 damage character. It is pretty good though for working out overall effectiveness - you are less likely to be one shotted by a lucky hit. However, lower defences are the average: about 2xDC ususally in my games, and a fairer comparisoon would be with that level of defences (although reducing defences proportionally increases the effect of the strength and really messes with the EC construct.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

She DOES take full damage from the velocity - no question. It's pretty safe to assume that she's not going to move the planet any.

 

She does not take damage from her own STR. So as I understand it (and according to STeve), yeah, that's by the book. Her target takes the same velocity damage but also takes the STR damage. You can of course also do the same thing without hurting yourself - though it takes a bit longer, by flying and whacking your target into something without hitting it yourself (Move-by rather than move through: hence less damage). Ideally, you do this to another member of the villain team, but the OCV penalty usually means something like the ground or a building is more practical............cheers, Mark

 

 

I'll have to look this up later but I'd assume if two people grappling fly into a solid object, like the ground, they take the same damage. If the move through uses strength, they take damage from it. If it doesn't then they don't. Subject to spotting the rule that proves me wrong, I'd rule that they both hit with equal force and so both take identical damage.

[caris]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

If he stays passive to conserve END' date=' he'll get dragged to the nearest source of water and drowned, even if that takes a while. No Post12 recovery for him. Or just locked up. If he tries to fight back, he'll go out of END and then KO'd. If you are grabbed and cannot get out or do anything to the graber, you lose. Always.[/quote']

 

No, this is once again, not assuming a nuetral environment. If there is a body of water within reasonable travel distance, you are setting the parameters to pre-favor one contestant over the other.

 

Getting back to my original thought, they both have a REC of 16, which means as long as they spend no more than 16 END per Turn things can go indefinitely. In the he is grabbed, she is squeezing, and he is shooting EB at her, she spends 8 END per Turn (2 END per Phase for STR), and he is spending 16 END per Turn (2 END per Phase for FF and 2 END per Phase for EB). END is not an issue unless you give Power Woman an environmental advantage. It is back to who gets the better rolls, sounds like the deffinition of equivalent for this scenario.

 

11- is about 65%. She can just full move near him' date=' what is he going to do? Half move away and fire? Next turn grabbed. Full move away and do nothing? He's running away and not doing a thing, proving she has the upper hand. And she can still pick up cars to throw if she wants a ranged duell. She could also do any of the "hurry" maneuvers, or just win a dex roll to go first and try to grab. Yes, she will not be able to grab him easily, but she can try again and again and he cannot do much about it. As soon as she manages that one 11- ONCE, he'll never get out (str rolls 2d6 vs 10d6 outright impossible) and she can do whatever evil thing she thinks of.[/quote']

 

(I looked it up, 65% is close enough.) The "hurry" maneuvers either can not be performed with ranged attacks and/or don't have ranged attack counterparts? Of course, we are also back to you pre-setting the environment to favor her. While I have no gripe with her having access to "free" missiles to throw at her target, and that those missiles have a DEF+BODY=10 and are both balanced and aerodynamic, I will complain if they are also assumed to be AOE or weigh more than 100kg and have the previously established traits. If the missile is assumed to be AOE than it is only fair that it is assumed to have a much reduced sum of DEF and BODY.

 

Once again, at work, I don't have my rule book in front of me, but shouldn't EB be able to generate a 7D6 STR for his escape vs. her 10D6 (I'm sure you are allowed to add Movement powers, but I can not remember how much. I may also be misremembering).

 

Markdoc's point is: Either it's a draw or BrickWoman wins. EBguy will either lose or run away. If that is not the definition of "better"' date=' then I don't know what is.[/quote']

 

Than the point needs to be proved without stacking the deck in Power Woman's favor.

 

If I take the book word by word, it states: "If you *do* no knockback or knockdown, you also take 100% of the damage".

- Splatting someone into the ground counts as "knockdown", if you ask me

- Doing lots of damage results in knockback, even if there is no space, if we go word by word, that's enough.

- If it's not, she just lets go of him 1" before ground, then it's crystal clear in all interpretations. Well, she has to grab him afterwards again, should not be a problem since he is stunned.

 

I am pretty sure Markdoc made the mistake of only applying velocity damage to wonderwoman (but full), which is not correct. Still, the trick works, assuming you manage some knockback with 25d6

 

Thanks to make them male + female, that makes referring by "him" and "her" much easier

 

I could have sworn that examples for taking full damage from performing a move through included moving through on someone standing directly infront of a barrier that you would have to pass through if you were to keep moving (I believe the example was a wall, but that might be me remembering 3rd Ed), which would certainly be the case here. Letting go of him before impact means depending that EM now gets to abort to his flight and use that to reduce the velocity some. I don't believe the rules explicitly cover the manuever of throwing someone while you are moving yourself, so how the Damage would be calculated would be up to the individual GM. Also, PW would definitely need more than 1 Inch of clearance not to be driving herself into the ground. She would need to make at least 2 (more appropriately 3) turns to get to 90 degrees off of a straight downward flight at the ground. 1 Inch would not give her enough clearance to make those turns, even if she had enough Skill Levels to reduce her Turn Mode. The farther from the ground she throws him, the more opportunity he has to use his flight to mitigate the effects of the manuever. This manuever only really works if she accepts it as performing a Move Through on the ground, and hope the GM rules that she does not have to take all of her STR+v/5 for some reason, like saying he provides her with added Def, or you remove her STR from the Damage she takes.

[Bloodstone]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

If they start at a range where she can not move and grab him in the first Phase' date=' he is perfectly capable of keeping the range open (assuming that no environmental factors favor either). Even if they are in that range and Energy Man takes no defensive actions, she only has an 11- chance to succeed in the grab. That is pretty close to 50/50 odds isn't it?[/quote']

 

Having a ranged attack is only an advantage if you are built to use it. You want to stay out of range, you need:

 

- You need superior movement abilities. Doesn't apply here. Even if it did, the brick can NCM to close the distance fast since she doesn't need to worry much if she gets hit. She's not taking significant damage.

 

- You need to be more maneuverable. Hero gives characters Move Through, Move By and Grab By as default maneuvers, but there is no Strafing Fire type maneuver. That gives a mobility advantage to the melee types. If you want that advantage for ranged attackers, you need to build it via house rules, Martial Arts or power constructs like Triggered movement.

 

- You need to be able to actually hit at range. Range Penalties stack up fast. It's great that you can make multiple attacks before the target gets to you, but if they don't land then you are just wasting END. Of course, this might not be as big of a problem if you have AoE attacks, but those usually do less damage than your standard blast. And that doesn't apply here either.

 

- You have to have some way to limit the opponents mobility - Entangles and TK generally don't work so well against Bricks, since they play to their strengths. They also quite possibly run into AP caps that prevent them from being effective against a brick. Advantages can change that, but in general Negative Adjustment Powers, Change Environment and Martial Maneuvers work better. But of course none of those apply here.

 

- This is not even factoring in things like throwing large pieces of the environment, since frankly everyone seems to run that sort of thing differently. But that said, every GM I've ever played with will let the brick pick something up and throw it as a weapon. I've never met a GM that would readily give a blaster bonus dice for lifting and Grabing by virtue of him having Energy Blast written on his sheet...

[caris]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

I'm sharply reminded of one of the first exchanges I really had with Caris on the boards, wherein we discussed the mitigating factors (on paper) between an ISD (Imperial Star Destroyer) and the NCC-1701D (Picard's Enterprise). While on paper the ISD doesn't stand a snowball's chance in a fiery hell, if you change the environment so that the ISD can bring it's fighters and turbo lasers to bear, suddenly you have a very different fight.

 

The question is, is there a situation wherein EB Boy can start actually dealing significant damage to Power Person? Haymaker? Special maneuvers? If he holds action (I don't know who goes first, forgive me) and then Haymakers for 4 extra DC, even IF she aborts he can still tag her on the next shared phase.

 

I really doubt that was me, since I don't know enough about the "paper" technical details of any starship (real fictional or otherwise) to be able to discuss their abilities. Maybe if it was about two ships that had write ups in the thread.

 

Quite frankly, I'm having trouble coming up with a situation that gives Energy Man a decided advantage if Power Woman is played reasonably intelligently. On the other hand, the only situation I see where PW has a decided advantage that does not rely on the GM weighting the environment in her favor (for example if there are AoE qualified objects with DEF+BODY=6+ there is a decided advantage for PW), is if she successfully grabs EM on the first Phase.

 

In all other situations, if the players are smart, it is just a game of follow the leader. Now, for me, that is one of the definitions of equivalently powered. Obviously, for Kdansky that is EM "fleeing," which means EM is less powerful.

[caris]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Markdoc,

 

I would like to wait until I have more time and the rules in front of me. Unfortunately, that might not be until Sunday or later.

 

I'd like to say' date=' I've carefully thought this through, but actually I didn't have to: I have seen this exact scenario play out multiple times. If the EB guy doesn't have some sort of movement advantage that lets him stay out of range of HTH combat he's usually hosed up against a brick, if their defences and attacks are roughly equal. It's one reason we abandoned the idea of active points caps - to be truly in-game competitive, a blaster actually needs more oomph than a brick. It's also why you don't often see in games blasters with a STR of 10. As already noted, whatever gave them their amazing blasting powers usually also gifts them with superhuman strength and toughness. [/quote']

 

I do want to address some of this. I realize that you are intending to only state this as a personal anecdotal evidence, but you seem to have a tendancy to come across as if you believe that everyone must have had the experiences that are very close to the ones that you have. I repeat. I have not had those experiences. I do not all that often see Blasters with Super Human Strength, yes, I have seen some. As for toughness, that is usually a matter of campaign requirements on Defenses. I don't see a whole lot of anybody that does not have Super Human Defenses from something in Champions campaigns. Now, were you intending to imply that the Super Human Toughness is represented by unusually high base PD?

 

I'd also like to put some context on the comment about "don't often see in games blasters with a STR of 10." On literal read, I have to agree with the statement. I usually see characters with better than a 10 STR. Of course, the only Primary Characteristic, where that statement isn't true in my experiences is Com. If we narrow the genre than I can add Body to the list that I commonly see at 10. I don't think I've ever seen a 10 Dex, Con, Int, or Ego on a PC. I have seen 10s in Str, Bod, Pre, and Com. I've only ever seen Str, Bod and Com sold back to under 10, and only Com sold back to under 8. What should we infer from my experiences?

 

Sorry: I needed to also add, that I have not seen a disproportionate number of 20+ STR in Champions. They have been no more common than any other Primary Characteristic at 20+, with the exception of Com. Com just does not get a lot of love in the groups that I play with.

 

Generally, my experiences is that with Super Heroic Campaigns most PCs have non-concept driven Primary Characteristics in the 11-20 range for STR, INT, PRE, EGO and 13-24 for DEX and CON. Body and Com tend to be in the 10-15 range. In Heroic Campaigns, everything except Com have been in the 11-15 range for non-concept Characteristics.

[JmOz]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Markdoc,

 

I would like to wait until I have more time and the rules in front of me. Unfortunately, that might not be until Sunday or later.

 

 

 

I do want to address some of this. I realize that you are intending to only state this as a personal anecdotal evidence, but you seem to have a tendancy to come across as if you believe that everyone must have had the experiences that are very close to the ones that you have. I repeat. I have not had those experiences. I do not all that often see Blasters with Super Human Strength, yes, I have seen some. As for toughness, that is usually a matter of campaign requirements on Defenses. I don't see a whole lot of anybody that does not have Super Human Defenses from something in Champions campaigns. Now, were you intending to imply that the Super Human Toughness is represented by unusually high base PD?

 

I'd also like to put some context on the comment about "don't often see in games blasters with a STR of 10." On literal read, I have to agree with the statement. I usually see characters with better than a 10 STR. Of course, the only Primary Characteristic, where that statement isn't true in my experiences is Com. If we narrow the genre than I can add Body to the list that I commonly see at 10. I don't think I've ever seen a 10 Dex, Con, Int, or Ego on a PC. I have seen 10s in Str, Bod, Pre, and Com. I've only ever seen Str, Bod and Com sold back to under 10, and only Com sold back to under 8. What should we infer from my experiences?

 

Sorry: I needed to also add, that I have not seen a disproportionate number of 20+ STR in Champions. They have been no more common than any other Primary Characteristic at 20+, with the exception of Com. Com just does not get a lot of love in the groups that I play with.

 

Generally, my experiences is that with Super Heroic Campaigns most PCs have non-concept driven Primary Characteristics in the 11-20 range for STR, INT, PRE, EGO and 13-24 for DEX and CON. Body and Com tend to be in the 10-15 range. In Heroic Campaigns, everything except Com have been in the 11-15 range for non-concept Characteristics.

 

My experience is fairly similar to Caris in range, with the exception of COM (Not CON), which almost always ranges in greater degrees (From about 4 to about 26 in all games)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Of course. Nothing I wrote suggested he can't attack. If Energyman uses his EB every phase' date=' he's using up END in addition to keeping his forcefield running. He might as well give up the EB - [i']he can't hurt Power Woman anyway, the way the two are constructed[/i].

 

This is an issue with the drafting of the chatacters. Presumably, they should both have lower defenses.

 

And yes' date=' she has to roll to hurt him, but she doesn't have to roll to hold him. I took that into account, but it's irrelevant - she can't hurt him either, just by squeezing - as long as he keeps that forcefield up. But he HAS to keep that forcefield up: if he stops paying END, even for a phase, he's basically paste. And in the meantime, she can do many things to to take him out of the fight. The simplest, since they both fly, is simply the ol' crater-maker: grab your puny EB-using foe, soar into the air, and then dive at the pavement, using gravity to double your movement, doing a movethrough with him. Powerwoman should take the full 13d6 for her speed for her velocity/3, meaning that about 16 STUN will leak though. She wont be even stunned and can, in a few phases, do it again. Poor ol' Energy man however wears the STR damage on top of that: 51 Stun goes through. He's stunned and near unconscious, his forcefield is gone - and he's still grabbed. Next phase, while he's recovering from being Stunned, Powerwoman is lifting him over her head to slam him straight down into the pavement. Even if the GM is kind enough to allow him to put up his FF the same phase he recovers from being stunned, it still won't keep him conscious very long. In a phase or two, Power woman is going to be standing in the cratered street, holding the tattered, bloodstained remains of his costume and shouting "Next time put the goddam seat down when you're finished!"[/quote']

 

Like many other posters, I would not allow that, when two characters forcefully crash into the ground in this fashion, one magically takes less damage than the other.

 

After all' date=' I didn't even write these characters: I simply took two characters presented for the express purpose of showing that there wasn't a significant advantage to STR versus EB and showed that actually - surprise surprise - there are multiple, easily-achievable ways that the brick chick can toast the EB guy - but there are in fact, virtually no ways for him to return the favour. She is, in fact, much tougher than he is.[/quote']

 

As many others have pointed out, you are assuming immediate HTH, which negates the advantage the EB has - Range. Assume instead that they start 20" apart. They can both fly, so those EB's do pretty good knockback. Closing will take a while. Since the Brick cannot attack, EB Man may wish to Haymaker his EB's early on to get extra damage through.

 

Right' date=' I should have listed Force Field instead of Armor which is a huuuuuge difference (note the irony), or specified that the armor needs "costs end". So, what about All Other Powers From The 5ER Book TM And All Ultimates Too? (some with "costs end" *if* even put into an EC, which *I* never said. Framework also implies VPP and MP, and nearly anything is valid in both.)[/quote']

 

Silly me...I assumed you wanted to use all the powers at the same time.

 

The Brick has no disadvantage whatsoever. If you don't restrict players with character classes' date=' everyone will have 40-60 STR in a 350cp game. Because there is no reason not to spend these 3 points from 10 STR to 40 STR, but it's damn useful against grabs and the sort.[/quote']

 

And yet I don't see most characters having huge STR in my games. Generally, this is because they weren't going to buy up REC and STUN anyway, so the STR does have a cost since they are receiving figured stats they didn't otherwise plan on buying. So he can't easily break a Grab. In a350 point game, that is answered with damage shields, desolid, teleport or just not getting close enough to get into HTH.

 

If he stays passive to conserve END' date=' he'll get dragged to the nearest source of water and drowned, even if that takes a while. No Post12 recovery for him. Or just locked up. If he tries to fight back, he'll go out of END and then KO'd. If you are grabbed and cannot get out or do anything to the graber, you lose. Always.[/quote']

 

But first you must be grabbed. Those relying on Grab ignore the benefits of range, providing an environmental advantage to the Brick. As do those assuming there are always lots of objects around that the brick can throw (with no OCV penalties and doing full damage).

 

She can just full move near him' date=' what is he going to do? Half move away and fire? Next turn grabbed.[/quote']

 

Not if she does at least 1" Knockback. The Brick cannot brace - that takes a half move. He falls over and is 1" away. He requires a half phase to get up, and must then make a half move to close. That's two halves - nothing left fr grabbing. Too bad. And since they can fly, presumably EB will put some effort into gaining altitude, exacerbating the effect of knockback.

 

Markdoc's point is: Either it's a draw or BrickWoman wins. EBguy will either lose or run away.

 

Unless we credit EBGuy with sharing the common sense you attribute to Brickwoman...

 

If I take the book word by word, it states: "If you *do* no knockback or knockdown, you also take 100% of the damage".

- Splatting someone into the ground counts as "knockdown", if you ask me

- Doing lots of damage results in knockback, even if there is no space, if we go word by word, that's enough.

 

You hit the earth. Did you inflict knockback on it? You don't need to knock back EB Man. You need to knock back the planet. Butyou have certainly demonstrated that, if we give SR enough free passes, it definitely becomes overpowered.

 

- If it's not' date=' she just lets go of him 1" before ground, then it's crystal clear in all interpretations. Well, she has to grab him afterwards again, should not be a problem since he is stunned.[/quote']

 

It may be a problem since she is 1" above the ground flying at doble max velocity. She will hit the ground, which I believe does 1d6 per 1" velocity. They should both be stunned now.

 

Part of the problem here is that the characters were built in a way where they could, under normal circumstances, do no damage to each other worth talking about.

 

If we reduce those defences to 20 or so - just to keep things even - then the advantage inbuilt to the energy projector comes into play.

 

We assumed that they were next to each other in the original scenario - the energy projector had to escape just to avoid being grabbed. If we assumed some separation then the energy projector has a ranged attack that will come into play, allowing him to damage power woman before he can get close enough to bring his advantage into play.

 

It is easy for small differences in an aspect here to make one or the other look absolutely perfect for one or the other protagonist. Possibly close enough that it doesn't actually make that much of a difference - I've never been convinced that it was necessary for me to do this though have often been sympathetic to the 2:1 argument.

 

To me, the fact that the advantage can swing either way indicates the balance is a lot closer than the 2:1 camp believes. I haven't seen their redesigned PowerWoman wth 2:1 STR who is clearly equal to EB Man yet. Convince me with that example.

 

I'll have to look this up later but I'd assume if two people grappling fly into a solid object' date=' like the ground, they take the same damage. If the move through uses strength, they take damage from it. If it doesn't then they don't. Subject to spotting the rule that proves me wrong, I'd rule that they both hit with equal force and so both take identical damage.[/quote']

 

Me too, Sean. But then we aren't giving PowerWoman an unfair advantage, are we?

 

I do want to address some of this. I realize that you are intending to only state this as a personal anecdotal evidence, but you seem to have a tendancy to come across as if you believe that everyone must have had the experiences that are very close to the ones that you have. I repeat. I have not had those experiences. I do not all that often see Blasters with Super Human Strength, yes, I have seen some. As for toughness, that is usually a matter of campaign requirements on Defenses. I don't see a whole lot of anybody that does not have Super Human Defenses from something in Champions campaigns. Now, were you intending to imply that the Super Human Toughness is represented by unusually high base PD?

 

I'd also like to put some context on the comment about "don't often see in games blasters with a STR of 10." On literal read, I have to agree with the statement. I usually see characters with better than a 10 STR. Of course, the only Primary Characteristic, where that statement isn't true in my experiences is Com. If we narrow the genre than I can add Body to the list that I commonly see at 10. I don't think I've ever seen a 10 Dex, Con, Int, or Ego on a PC. I have seen 10s in Str, Bod, Pre, and Com. I've only ever seen Str, Bod and Com sold back to under 10, and only Com sold back to under 8. What should we infer from my experiences?

 

Sorry: I needed to also add, that I have not seen a disproportionate number of 20+ STR in Champions. They have been no more common than any other Primary Characteristic at 20+, with the exception of Com. Com just does not get a lot of love in the groups that I play with.

 

Generally, my experiences is that with Super Heroic Campaigns most PCs have non-concept driven Primary Characteristics in the 11-20 range for STR, INT, PRE, EGO and 13-24 for DEX and CON. Body and Com tend to be in the 10-15 range. In Heroic Campaigns, everything except Com have been in the 11-15 range for non-concept Characteristics.

 

My experience pretty much matches yours. I don't see a lot of STR over 20 unless the character is superhumanly strong. I see a bit higher PRE, and maybe a bit higher DEX and CON. Those are the two stats where I see virtually every Super being above the 20 mark.

[Kdansky]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

I don't want to go into a quote war, so I'm just listing some counterpoints:

 

I don't think Powerwoman is balanced with str being 2:1. I never said that. We are trying to show that Powerwoman at 2:1 would still be very effective. I'm also on the "EBguy should just buy 40 str" side, and reduce his Forcefield a bit (to accomodate newly found free PD), the savings in stun and rec (which he bought) will make his newfound strength not cost a point (he might possibly even get cheaper). Why isn't that wrong?

 

Haymaker: If he does that, he'll probably miss (-2 OCV) and be grabbed at 14- next round if she makes the "who goes first" dex roll. If he hits, he *might* stun her. If he can do that three times in a row, he'll win. If he even misses once (75% chance), he'll end up grabbed with a high chance.

 

Range: Both flights are x8 noncombat with a high number of inches. She can just take a single (possible) hit at DCV/2 to catch up with him. If they start apart even further, he's at about 3- due to range?

 

DEX being high has a similar reason: OCV/DCV. If you want to be decently competitive, you need decent values there, same for speed. Dex is the most important combat stat by far, but on the other hand, it's only priced "fair" at 3:1. (one cp for speed, one for ocv, one for dcv, roll improvement for free). Str at 1:1 is 0.5 for PD, 0.25 for stun, 0.25 for rec, leap, damage, grab, break free, lifting and roll for free. See the gripe? Where dex "only" gets a better roll, str gets this big list of good stuff.

Last time I had a character myself which had this phenomenon, I took the least amount of strength which was not more expensive than having more, but first I selected a low PD value (and made up for that with Armor) to decrease that soft spot of str further. So yeah, I ran around with strength 17 in a heroic game, but I could have also had 25 without paying one more point for it (bit less resistant defenses though, but I didn't really need them). I don't want to minmax to get LESS strength. At 2:1, that would not have happened.

That's what you observe in champions: People stay to their concept and reduce strength without gaining any points for it. Champions as it is played is nearly class based anyway, and most GMs would probably not allow the blaster to have 60 str too (that would probably cost him some lousy 10 points or less, up from 10 str).

 

GM fiat to powerwoman: Yeah, assuming there is no water/fire/car/tank/truck/cable/electricity/wall reachable with 60 AP of flight, there are no items to throw and you are in an empty desert made of steel ground, THEN she is not that much advantaged. Which is the point! In any normal environment the str gives you so much, 2:1 would still be fair.

If she can grab, it's over. She can just handcuff and blindfold him, using any sort of steel wires for it (rip down some train lines if you have to). All while holding him in the left hand by the neck. Assuming she is with the police, hand him over, assuming she's with the bad guys, bury him in the ground or make a fire.

 

Also, anecdotal evidence ("I've seen this happen once!") is not a good thing to base balancing on, I hope we agree on that.

 

We should make a topic on the MoveThroughCrater attack. I'm really not sure how to rule that. In any case, drowning in a bathtub solves that problem. Also, he'll run out of Longterm END

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Re: Is anything in the system correctly priced?

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

The point about this is that the build suggested are not identical - there is the whole thing with Energy Guy's defences costing END. Now I'm going to rep Kenn because this has been an intersting discussion point, but the fact remains, built to the same spec, you get more miles from strength, even if you assume strength and EB are balanced as powers (and I personally don't think that. Maybe in a straight fight, MAYBE. Certainly not for general utility).

 

Logically, therefore we change th ecost of strength in game, but that would be incredibly disruptive.

 

Like everything in Hero, it is a balancing act.

[Markdoc]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Like many other posters' date=' I would not allow that, when two characters forcefully crash into the ground in this fashion, one magically takes less damage than the other.[/quote']

 

One of the characters is actually being slammed into the ground at high speed by the other. Splatterman hits the ground with Impactwoman's 60 STR Hand on the back of his head and her 60 STR Knee in his back. Then she lands on top of him at high speed with skin that's less yielding than the main armour of an Abrams. On thinking about it, it makes perfect sense that he's going to take more damage - and indeed, the UMA, in the Speedster Martial Arts package includes exactly such a grab n' splat move where you combine STR and your own velocity. So yeah, my suggestion is rules-legal.

 

As many others have pointed out, you are assuming immediate HTH, which negates the advantage the EB has - Range. Assume instead that they start 20" apart. They can both fly, so those EB's do pretty good knockback. Closing will take a while. Since the Brick cannot attack, EB Man may wish to Haymaker his EB's early on to get extra damage through.

 

As I have already pointed out, I made no such assumption: if they start out 20" away, Energyman has a significantly less than even chance of hitting her - if they start out further away, that falls even further. And she has a 20" move so if they start 20" apart, she will cover that in one phase if he misses. Again, the odds are on her side.

 

Now I agree, haymakering from the beginning is actually his best strategy, but with the OCV penalties for a Haymaker on top of range, his chance of hitting - even at close range - falls to much less than parity, and the combination of the delay in his attack, and the DCV penalty makes that a highly risky strategy for him once his target closes. If he tries to haymaker from 20" away, odds are good (nearly 80%, even including the penalty for velocity) he'll be wearing a movethrough, with a 50/50 chance that he will end up stunned (losing his haymaker, his next phase his forcefield and the fight). Given that his odds of hitting her with a haymakered EB are much less, and his odds of stunning her are tiny (he needs to roll 15% up on 15 dice: not good), plus the fact that it takes him an extra segment (giving her a clean shot) those are not good numbers for him

 

In such an approach, the math strongly favors Powerwoman - even if it's still his best strategy - because at least it gives him a chance (albeit a very small one) of a lucky shot.

 

Plus, as I've mentioned, I took knockback into account. With 10d6, his chances of doing over 10" in knockback (her half move) are negligible, even when flying. So the best he can hope for is to reduce her move to a little more than half his halfmove. In other words, the best he realistically can hope for is to slow her down: not open any space. Yeah, if he gets lucky, he can maybe hold her off for a couple, maybe even 3 extra phases: during which time he does a largely insignificant amount of stun.

 

Summing all that up, means that start 'em 100" or 1" apart, it does not alter the dynamics significantly, since at anything over close range, his chances of hitting drop so much and even a successful hit has only a minor effect: and with an 8xNCM, even large distances will be covered quickly. Which means they are almost certainly going to end up in HTH, and without much damage being likely by that point. I stated as much a few posts up. That's my assumption and the math underlying it appears to be solid.

 

I have, obviously already thought about these issues and I am honestly not trying to slant the fight in Powerwoman's favour - a Kderensky pointed out, I didn't bother with the fact that a Grab should under most circumstances, neutralise his EB. In large part, because it's not that relevant and also also because if she grabs him she can haymaker her squeeze while keeping his EB pointed away - that's makes an easy win for her, since the extra phase and DCV penalty become meaningless: but it's not like she needs further advantages. I also suggested that the GM might allow him to use his flight to ameliorate Powerwoman's ability to carry him round like a lil' puppy (although that's technically illegal: by the rules, once he's grabbed, he has no movement until he can break free). I tried, wherever possible, to take a fairly balanced approach.

 

The reason it doesn't look good for him is, well, because Powerwoman's stronger.

 

Now if you take Caris' approach and have the fight in an environment where there is no ground, no water, no buildings, and no vehicles or other environmental obstacles, then yes, they become more evenly matched - though the odds are still in her favour because of his non-persistent defence. But all honesty, how often does that happen? Alternatively - which is why I wrote that powerwoman nearly always wins, Energyman could conceivably win if he is lucky and smart by using the environment - lure her over a fuel tanker and blow that up, shoot down powerlines on her if she has a susceptibility to electricity and so on - but all that assumes much more luck than assuming the characters are in a setting where there is "a building" or "the ground" - those are pretty generic.

 

All the counterarguments so far seem to be focussing on "how Energyman can possibly survive/escape" - to me, that's pretty convincing evidence of who's stronger.

 

Caris is also right in that I place a fair amount of weight on my experience. But I've played in/run many different games and can also compare characters from those to published characters: have a look and see how many supers have a STR under 20. Not very damn many. That suggests to me that my experience is actually pretty typical.

 

cheers, Mark

[Vestnik]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Energyman can point and say, "look! Your shoes are untied!", then Haymakering while she is distracted. It works on the playground; I see no reason it would not function with as great efficacy in a superfight.

[Alibear]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

He might also spread some dice but if he's not damaging her anyay...

[Doc Democracy]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

I also suggested that the GM might allow him to use his flight to ameliorate Powerwoman's ability to carry him round like a lil' puppy (although that's technically illegal: by the rules' date=' once he's grabbed, he has no movement until he can break free). I tried, wherever possible, to take a fairly balanced approach.[/quote']

 

This is a place where grab seems inappropriately strong (or misused).

 

If I allow someone to grab an opponent then they have the option of general immobilisation or specific immobilisation of a power - EB, flight etc, depending on SFX of those abilities.

 

I require more specific expertise (or much better rolls) to expand the general immobility of the victim. Otherwise the manouevre does provide that bit too much for the cost of it...

 

 

Doc

[Vestnik]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

OK. If Powerbabe has grabbed Energywuss and he starts flying, won't she go with him?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

OK. If Powerbabe has grabbed Energywuss and he starts flying' date=' won't she go with him?[/quote']

 

yeah but then he has the potential of trying the move by type stuff to break her hold...if he has the flying intiative. Limited though as PG would be able to use her flight to counter that.

[Vestnik]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

yeah but then he has the potential of trying the move by type stuff to break her hold...if he has the flying intiative. Limited though as PG would be able to use her flight to counter that.

 

Can't he try to fly her into a wall or the ground, using her body as a shield?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

One of the characters is actually being slammed into the ground at high speed by the other. Splatterman hits the ground with Impactwoman's 60 STR Hand on the back of his head and her 60 STR Knee in his back. Then she lands on top of him at high speed with skin that's less yielding than the main armour of an Abrams. On thinking about it' date=' it makes perfect sense that he's going to take more damage - and indeed, the UMA, in the Speedster Martial Arts package includes exactly such a grab n' splat move where you combine STR and your own velocity. So yeah, my suggestion is rules-legal.[/quote']

 

I dn't have my books with me. However, the fact that UMA includes a MA maneuver you can buy with points to make a grab & splat move doesn't mean that someone using freecombat maneuvers can do the same thing. Martial maneuvers cost points because they improve on standard maneuvers.

 

As I have already pointed out' date=' I made no such assumption: if they start out 20" away, Energyman has a significantly less than even chance of hitting her - if they start out further away, that falls even further. And she has a 20" move so if they start 20" apart, she will cover that in one phase if he misses. Again, the odds are on her side.[/quote']

 

"I reserve until he approaches with X inches so my range penalty will be reduced".

 

Now I agree' date=' haymakering from the beginning is actually his best strategy, but with the OCV penalties for a Haymaker on top of range, his chance of hitting - even at close range - falls to much less than parity, and the combination of the delay in his attack, and the DCV penalty makes that a highly risky strategy for him once his target closes. If he tries to haymaker from 20" away, odds are good (nearly 80%, even including the penalty for velocity) he'll be wearing a movethrough, with a 50/50 chance that he will end up stunned (losing his haymaker, his next phase his forcefield and the fight). Given that his odds of hitting her with a haymakered EB are much less, and his odds of stunning her are tiny (he needs to roll 15% up on 15 dice: not good), plus the fact that it takes him an extra segment (giving her a clean shot) those are not good numbers for him[/quote']

 

Again, we get into situational issues. That Move Through impacts Power Woman's OCV as well, of course.

 

Plus' date=' as I've mentioned, I took knockback into account. With 10d6, his chances of doing over 10" in knockback (her half move) are negligible, even when flying. So the best he can hope for is to reduce her move to a little more than half his halfmove. In other words, the best he realistically can hope for is to slow her down: not open any space. Yeah, if he gets lucky, he can maybe hold her off for a couple, maybe even 3 extra phases: during which time he does a largely insignificant amount of stun. [/quote']

 

I repeat: half phase to recover from being prone + half move = no ability to grab. That only needs 1" Knockback.

 

and with an 8xNCM' date=' even large distances will be covered quickly. [/quote']

 

Sure - go to noncombat (DCV 0). Now my Haymaker hits virtually automatically, and you get knocked back again (you won't need the noncmbat movement again,though).

 

In large part' date=' because it's not that relevant and also also because if she grabs him she can haymaker her squeeze while keeping his EB pointed away[/quote']

 

You're assuming she can automaticaly squeeze, imobilize andpoint the EB away, all atthe same time. I disagee with this, however if you run your game that way, you have definitely increased the power of SR.

 

- that's makes an easy win for her' date=' since the extra phase and DCV penalty become meaningless: but it's not like she needs further advantages.[/quote']

 

The FAQ tels us if the penalties are meaningless, she can't Haymaker. If she can, so can EB Guy. What does Knockback do to a Grab?

 

I also suggested that the GM might allow him to use his flight to ameliorate Powerwoman's ability to carry him round like a lil' puppy (although that's technically illegal: by the rules' date=' once he's grabbed, he has no movement until he can break free). [/quote']

 

Where is that rule noted? That implies you can't teleport out of a grab either, although I expect that would be noted as an exception.

[Bloodstone]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

This is a place where grab seems inappropriately strong (or misused).

 

Well, per p98 of 5ER you have to specify where your Energy Blast originates from. So if the blaster shoots fire form his hands, you have to use grab to immobilize his hands (2 limbs, which is what Grab immobilizes by default). If he's got heat vision you just immobilize the head (only 1 limb). The way around that limit is to put Indirect at the +1/4 level on your blast so that it can come from anywhere on your body or as a Power Skill roll. UEP also recommends that this could be a repeatable Power Skill roll, unlike most stunts where you are supposed to purchase the ability if you use it too much.

 

By contrast STR, unless you put some kind of lim on it, is assumed to come from any and every part of the body by default. Your basic Strike and Grab maneuvers are extremely free form. They can represent a punch, headbutt, kick, shoulder smash, elbow strike, slam into the ground, breaking someone over your knee, bear hug, clinching and countless other SFX's.

 

But yeah, Grab is incredibly potent in a one on one fight when you have this much of a STR advantage. Heck, just check out the optional rules on p388 of 5ER to see how bad this situation really could be. Potentially the Blaster could be taking massive hits to his CV while the Brick is barely affected. With the massive STR difference, she can even switch to a one hand Grab and have no fear of the Blaster escaping.

[Markdoc]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

OK. If Powerbabe has grabbed Energywuss and he starts flying' date=' won't she go with him?[/quote']

 

Steve has been asked this specific question on the boards and his answer was "no: although the GM can always rule otherwise depending on circumstances". You can look the specific question up, if you want.

 

However, in my earlier post, I wrote (based in part on Steve's reply) that "if the GM was nice" he could allow Energyman to deploy his flight. As a GM, I actually would allow this, because grab is a pretty powerful technique and this gives some counterweight, and also because of the restrainable limitation which is often used for things like wings: if you get a points break for being unable to fly when restrained (for example grabbed) then it suggests that normally you could fly when grabbed.

 

However, I would still rule that you can only use your movement on your own actions - you couldn't just use it as an offset, so while it would make the crater-maker maneuver much harder, gravity means that it would not be prevented (he can only fly upwards 10" on his phase, she can go earthwards, 40" on her phase: he'd be better off delaying and using his move to angle sideways towards something soft )

 

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

I don't want to go into a quote war, so I'm just listing some counterpoints:

 

I don't think Powerwoman is balanced with str being 2:1. I never said that. We are trying to show that Powerwoman at 2:1 would still be very effective. I'm also on the "EBguy should just buy 40 str" side, and reduce his Forcefield a bit (to accomodate newly found free PD), the savings in stun and rec (which he bought) will make his newfound strength not cost a point (he might possibly even get cheaper). Why isn't that wrong?

 

But no one has shown she would be effective at 2:1. Show me the rebuild, and then show me that she has any hope of surviving against EB Guy. [Maybe fix both their defenses in the process, since their attack:defense ratio is clearly too low for most/all games.]

 

Haymaker: If he does that' date=' he'll probably miss (-2 OCV) and be grabbed at 14- next round if she makes the "who goes first" dex roll. If he hits, he *might* stun her. If he can do that three times in a row, he'll win. If he even misses once (75% chance), he'll end up grabbed with a high chance.[/quote']

 

Since we keep referring to noncombat, what prevents EB Guy from Haymakering, and following up with "Hurry/fly noncombat"to put some more distance between them?

 

Range: Both flights are x8 noncombat with a high number of inches. She can just take a single (possible) hit at DCV/2 to catch up with him. If they start apart even further' date=' he's at about 3- due to range?[/quote']

 

She'll take that single hit at reduced DCV as a Haymaker and be knocked back

 

GM fiat to powerwoman: Yeah, assuming there is no water/fire/car/tank/truck/cable/electricity/wall reachable with 60 AP of flight, there are no items to throw and you are in an empty desert made of steel ground, THEN she is not that much advantaged. Which is the point! In any normal environment the str gives you so much, 2:1 would still be fair.

If she can grab, it's over. She can just handcuff and blindfold him, using any sort of steel wires for it (rip down some train lines if you have to). All while holding him in the left hand by the neck. Assuming she is with the police, hand him over, assuming she's with the bad guys, bury him in the ground or make a fire.

 

As noted previously, allowing use of the environment to convert STR int a full damage, ranged AoE atack at no penalties definitely overpowers STR. No one is arguing that is not the case. The fix is not to allow SR these advantages (ie impose severe OCV penalties for tossing huge objects around; offset these somewhat with OCV bonuses,not AoE status, for large objects, etc.

 

Also' date=' anecdotal evidence ("I've seen this happen once!") is not a good thing to base balancing on, I hope we agree on that.[/quote']

 

"I've seen bricksoverpower EP's" is also anecdotal.

 

We should make a topic on the MoveThroughCrater attack. I'm really not sure how to rule that. In any case' date=' drowning in a bathtub solves that problem. Also, he'll run out of Longterm END [/quote']

 

If we apply the LTE rules to one and not the other, I suppose. And now we can Grab, Immobilize, prevent an E atack in response, finely control EB Man's ability to react,run he bathtub, [EB Man can't breakthe tub with his EB though], etc., etc. It seems the problem lies in rab, not in STR. TKGrabs are even more effective - I need not get close - and add no PD, REC or STUN.