Discussion on costs of Characteristics

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

One further item to highlight. Ikeep coming back to "Show me PowerWoman as effective paying 2 points for STR". There are two issues here, and we only seem to be aalyzing one.

 

First, is STR too cheap at 1:1. That one is being analyzed in detail (and neither side is convincing the other of anything, I would say).

 

Second, is the fix to make it cost 2:1. Without a revised PowerWoman, we aven'treally analyzed that at all. Show me the accuracy of your fix.

[caris]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Now if you take Caris' approach and have the fight in an environment where there is no ground' date=' no water, no buildings, and no vehicles or other environmental obstacles, then yes, they become more evenly matched - though the odds are still in her favour because of his non-persistent defence. But all honesty, how often does that happen? Alternatively - which is why I wrote that powerwoman [b']nearly[/b] always wins, Energyman could conceivably win if he is lucky and smart by using the environment - lure her over a fuel tanker and blow that up, shoot down powerlines on her if she has a susceptibility to electricity and so on - but all that assumes much more luck than assuming the characters are in a setting where there is "a building" or "the ground" - those are pretty generic.

 

Mark,

 

I never said there was no ground. I questioned the book legality of your assertion that she could slam him into the ground as a move through variant and not take her own STR damage. You sited that it was not from the book, but a ruling from Mr. Long. I am perfectly willing to accept that it is rules legal, and must beg your forgiveness for not having read every single ruling that Steve has posted. Which means for the purposes of this conversation, I will accept that the manuever you described is perfectly valid and will work.

 

As for environmental factors other than the ground, I have no problem with them being considered as long as they are being considered in a fair and balance manner. Assuming that their is a handy body of water for her to drown him in, means that their are 30,000kg of stuff balanced in such a way that he gets to dump it on her and pin her. Assuming that their is a vehicle that counts as AoE with a DEF+BODY=10 (12 if she has to push her STR to throw it far enough to hit him) (Edit: Aw, heck, as long as the item can't be used AoE it can have infinite Def+Body and is light enough for her to easily throw) means, that their are plenty of large containers that EM can shoot and cause a 10d6 explosion. The environment can be slanted to play to the strengths of either person.

 

OK, you wanted to know how EM could half move, attack and still keep the range open. First of all, I did not say he could do all three. I simply pointed out that he could keep the range open. I did not say that he could do it and attack.

 

What I would like to know, is how PW can get Knockedback and still get a full move in the Phase that she has to spend a half Phase either getting up or getting reoriented if she was flying? If she attempts to Resist Knockback she is limited to only a half Phase that turn. As for how easy it is for him to do or not do, well if she is on the ground, there is a chance that he will have no effect with his normal energy blast. So if she goes first, and can close, and land without being able to attack his best option is to full move, while gaining altitude. He should repeat this process until she is in the air. At that point half moving and attacking, while spreading at least four dice to help offset range penalties becomes his best option. As long as he hits, or makes her resist KB, she is limited to only half moves. Is he going to knock her unconscious this way? Nope, but a. he has a lot better chance of making this work consistently than she does of successfully grabbing him and b. I don't consider an indefinite standoff as a sign of him being less powerful.

[Vestnik]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Why don't you guys just write up crude versions of Powerfemme and Energyhomme and have them duke it out? See who wins.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

5 bucks on Strengthener Girl.

[Markdoc]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

I dn't have my books with me. However' date=' the fact that UMA includes a MA maneuver you can buy with points to make a grab & splat move doesn't mean that someone using freecombat maneuvers can do the same thing. Martial maneuvers cost points because they improve on standard maneuvers.[/quote']

 

IIRC, it is suggested as a Tactic - not a martial arts maneuver.

 

"I reserve until he approaches with X inches so my range penalty will be reduced".

 

Sure, at which he point he has a better chance of hitting - doing, on average a small amount of KNB and 5 Stun. So next turn, she's on him, unless he can suddenly pull 15 inches of KNB out of 10d6 EB. I'm not sure why the math is so hard on this one: if he starts at long range, his chances of hitting are tiny. If he waits until his chances of hitting are better than 9 or less, she's on him next phase. That's just how it is, given the character design. If she was slower than he was, or her DCV was lower or his attack was much larger, then maybe. As it stands, he's not going to be able to knockback his way out of this.

 

Again, we get into situational issues. That Move Through impacts Power Woman's OCV as well, of course.

 

But of course: that's why I wrote that her chance of hitting him is nearly 80% even taking the modifiers for her velocity into account. If he haymakers her beyond 20" he has a less than 25% chance to hit and a tiny chance to Stun her. If he waits until she's within 20" and she moves through on him while he's haymakering, she has a 74.6% chance (to be precise) of hitting him (before he gets to attack) and a 50% chance of stunning him. Anyway you slice it, those are bad odds for him: I'm still not grasping why the math is so hard here.

 

I repeat: half phase to recover from being prone + half move = no ability to grab. That only needs 1" Knockback.

 

Repeat away: flying characters have no need to "stand up". So it's half move and grab, regardless.

 

 

Sure - go to noncombat (DCV 0). Now my Haymaker hits virtually automatically, and you get knocked back again (you won't need the noncmbat movement again,though).

 

Maybe this is the root of the problem - you're not doing the math, but simply assuming that hits are important. In truth, if he hits her, the chances of getting a Stunned result are tiny, even with a haymaker. For these characters you need to go to 16-17 DC for a decent chance at stunning. A haymaker is not going to take her down. Unless he can somehow pull 20" of KNB out o a 15d6 attack, the worst that can happen is that he hits, she takes some stun and now she is within one phase's move of him.

 

Forget about blowing her out of the air before she closes to hand to hand: as the characters are built, that's not going to happen, barring miracle dice.

 

You're assuming she can automaticaly squeeze, imobilize andpoint the EB away, all atthe same time. I disagee with this, however if you run your game that way, you have definitely increased the power of SR.

 

You are welcome to run your game the way you feel inclined, but a grab automatically immobilizes two limbs of the attacker's choice. So no roll is required. Likewise, a squeeze - according to the rules, can automatically follow a grab. You may feel it is overpowered, but that's how the rules are written. Now admittedly, I didn't assume he would be unable to attack in my initial analysis - whether he can, or can't, it actually doesn't make that much difference.

 

 

The FAQ tels us if the penalties are meaningless, she can't Haymaker. If she can, so can EB Guy. What does Knockback do to a Grab?

 

The penalties are not meaningless - anyone else shooting at her can take advantage of them: it's merely that immobilised Energyman can't get any benefit from them: they are irrelevant for him. So that's a non-issue.

 

Not that it matters, because, quoting directly from the FAQ:

Question: If a character has a Ranged Attack like an Energy Blast that exerts force (i.e., does Knockback), could he use the BODY done by the attack against the STR of an opponent who Grabs him to break free of the Grab?

Answer: No.

Also - again from the FAQ: using a haymaker at all to try to break free from a grab is a GM's permission thing (personally I would allow it, but that's because Grab can be pretty nasty).

 

Where is that rule noted? That implies you can't teleport out of a grab either' date=' although I expect that would be noted as an exception.[/quote']

 

I'm kind of surprised you ask, since you are the person who posed two questions to Steve in the Rules forum , specifically with regard to Teleporting when grabbed. His answer was that to move someone with your move you needed UAA (Link: http://herogame.dans.cust.servlets.net/forums/showthread.php?t=43478&highlight=grab+teleport). That's true of all movement powers (technically) although I have already said I'd allow a character to move on his own phase and take the grabber with him: It makes no sense to me that Powerwoman (weight 80 Kg ) could grab a passing locomotive and stop it dead, even if she's strong enough to lift it, unless she has something to brace against.

 

You are right though, that Teleporting out of a grab is permitted and is an exception (see the "escape clause" example build). This advantage to some extent offsets the fact that you can't use teleport "velocity" to do damage.

 

None of which helps poor ol Energyman. Odds are he's going to get grabbed and once grabbed, he stays grabbed.

 

cheers, Mark

[caris]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Repeat away: flying characters have no need to "stand up". So it's half move and grab' date=' regardless.[/quote']

 

Per the rules for Knockback and Knockdown, Flying characters still have to spend a Phase Reorienting, so half move no grab.

[Markdoc]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Per the rules for Knockback and Knockdown' date=' Flying characters still have to spend a Phase Reorienting, so half move no grab.[/quote']

 

OK, my bad - if that's the case, I don't recall reading it, but it does make sense.

 

Not that it changes the equation apart from delaying the inevitable

 

As already pointed out, his odds of hitting her beyond 32" are tiny. So it's really only that last little bit that really matters. He can spread his EB but then he does less KNB and no STUN - she can keep that up for ever, moving 4-5" closer every phase even with a half phase to "stand up" and a halfmove. He can extend his lifespan a little by moving back, but the hard, cruel logic of math crushes his hopes.

 

It goes like this. To have a better than even chance for him to hit, she has to be within close range and his average KNB is 7": less than her half move. To keep her at range with KNB, he has to hit her and move back. Fail either of those and she will close the range.

 

If he's out of close range he has less than 50% change of hitting - and her move is twice his half move. In other words, even if he hits her one time in two (and odd are that he won't), she will close on him (since even when "knocked down" her half move is still greater than his expected KNB) - and every time he misses, she closes the equivalent of two of his retreat moves. In other words, he has to hit her pretty much every time while he's moving back: and maths says that ain't gonna happen. At range, he'll get her at best slightly less than 1 shot in two. That ain't near enough.

 

Once she gets within a full-move of him, her options multiply: she can try move throughs or move bys (small chance of hitting, but she ends up close to him ready for next turn) or closing to HTH. Using only Flight and STR she burns no significant END. His options in contrast, diminish: to keep her at range with EB and flight and maintain his FF (because if she connects with one of those movethroughs she might stun him even with it up - but without it, a hit will mean death) he's burning END faster than he can replace it. Again, in slow fighting retreat, the odds are heavily weighted in her favour.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

You sited that it was not from the book' date=' but a ruling from Mr. Long. I am perfectly willing to accept that it is rules legal, and must beg your forgiveness for not having read every single ruling that Steve has posted. Which means for the purposes of this conversation, I will accept that the manuever you described is perfectly valid and will work.[/quote']

 

Actually it's also in UMA - but if I came across as "requiring forgiveness" I apologise. There are so many rules/judgements and books, that keeping every one straight is impossible - see for example my goof about fliers and KNB.

 

As for environmental factors other than the ground' date=' I have no problem with them being considered as long as they are being considered in a fair and balance manner. [/quote']

 

And that's a fair point - but in truth, the environment benefits the person with high STR most, simply because STR is so flexible. With 50 STR, water (the sea, a river, a fountain, heck, even a watermain) can be a lethal weapon - but so can a schoolbus, a bulldozer, a large brick building, a metal powerpole, powerlines, etc etc. With STR 10, none of these help. So in most cases, the environment is to the brick's advantage. As a simple indicator, with a few seconds' thought I have indicated advantageous common features the brick can use. Cover can be to both side's advantage, though it hampers the ranged combatant more. What features are to the blaster's advantage? In most cases, he's better off heading for the sky - where we get the "pursuit and close" described above - or just hightail on out of Dodge.

 

cheers, Mark

[caris]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

And for what it's worth' date=' with STR at 1:1, I don't think I have ever seen a PC sell STR back even for a "frail" character. At 2:1, I [b']have[/b] seen that happen.

 

It's also why you don't often see in games blasters with a STR of 10. As already noted' date=' whatever gave them their amazing blasting powers usually also gifts them with superhuman strength and toughness. [/quote']

 

Caris is also right in that I place a fair amount of weight on my experience. But I've played in/run many different games and can also compare characters from those to published characters: have a look and see how many supers have a STR under 20. Not very damn many. That suggests to me that my experience is actually pretty typical.

 

Mark,

 

You keep presenting your experiences with player's behavior in relation to buy STR, but you keep leaving out any additional context.

 

So I ask you in all seriousness how do each of the other Primary Characteristics meet the implied criterias for proper pricing that you have presented.

 

How many times have you seen any of them sold back?

How many times have you seen an arch-type that did not specialize in the Primary Characteristic play with that characteristic at 10?

How many Supers have you seen with any given Primary Characteristic under 20?

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

OK. If Powerbabe has grabbed Energywuss and he starts flying' date=' won't she go with him?[/quote']

 

Technically you can't fly whilst grabbed. At all.

 

That's if I remember correctly.

 

Never a sure thing...

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Per the rules for Knockback and Knockdown' date=' Flying characters still have to spend a Phase Reorienting, so half move no grab.[/quote']

 

But tickety-boo on a grab-by

[Tonio]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Another "extra effect" of STR is that it also serves as a defense, of sorts, since it's used in STR vs STR contests, while ranged attacks have no such counterpart. A ranged attack is only used for attacking others at range. STR is not only used to attack others without range, it's also used to grab, disarm, etc. AND to resist such grabs, disarms, etc.

 

Consider Energyman and Powergal trying to disarm each other (say both their powers come from OAF's). Powergal will disarm Energyman almost surely (full STR vs piddly STR), while Energyman will have a more even contest (full EB pseudo-STR vs full STR).

[Vestnik]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Technically you can't fly whilst grabbed. At all.

 

That's if I remember correctly.

 

Never a sure thing...

 

So, if a STR 10 guy grabs the Space Shuttle, and it fires its jets, the shuttle won't move?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

So' date=' if a STR 10 guy grabs the Space Shuttle, and it fires its jets, the shuttle won't move?[/quote']

 

 

Vehicles have a STR score just like characters. It's usually based on what the vehicle itself can carry or lift. I'm pretty sure the Shuttle's STR is 40+.

 

Also, Flight can be used to augment STR for lifting purposes.

 

So let's say you have Marvel's Hercules grab Northstar. Northstar is not going to be able to break the Grab itself. However, he might have enough normal STR to lift Hercules and therefore fly into the air while Herc' hangs on.

 

HERO rules might not spell out this specific situation but they do stress that GM's should always apply a little common sense where appropriate.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Vehicles have a STR score just like characters. It's usually based on what the vehicle itself can carry or lift. I'm pretty sure the Shuttle's STR is 40+.

 

Also, Flight can be used to augment STR for lifting purposes.

 

So let's say you have Marvel's Hercules grab Northstar. Northstar is not going to be able to break the Grab itself. However, he might have enough normal STR to lift Hercules and therefore fly into the air while Herc' hangs on.

 

HERO rules might not spell out this specific situation but they do stress that GM's should always apply a little common sense where appropriate.

 

Actually, it does, IIRC; there's a whole example where Defender aims his boots downwards to add his Flight to his STR for purposes of holding up a building.

[caris]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

OK, my bad - if that's the case, I don't recall reading it, but it does make sense.

 

Not that it changes the equation apart from delaying the inevitable

 

As already pointed out, his odds of hitting her beyond 32" are tiny. So it's really only that last little bit that really matters. He can spread his EB but then he does less KNB and no STUN - she can keep that up for ever, moving 4-5" closer every phase even with a half phase to "stand up" and a halfmove. He can extend his lifespan a little by moving back, but the hard, cruel logic of math crushes his hopes.

 

No, if all she can do is half-move she can not close the distance. Because they have the exact same half moves.

 

It goes like this. To have a better than even chance for him to hit' date=' she has to be within close range and his average KNB is 7": less than her half move. To keep her at range with KNB, he has to hit her [b']and[/b] move back. Fail either of those and she will close the range.

 

If he's out of close range he has less than 50% change of hitting - and her move is twice his half move. In other words, even if he hits her one time in two (and odd are that he won't), she will close on him (since even when "knocked down" her half move is still greater than his expected KNB) - and every time he misses, she closes the equivalent of two of his retreat moves. In other words, he has to hit her pretty much every time while he's moving back: and maths says that ain't gonna happen. At range, he'll get her at best slightly less than 1 shot in two. That ain't near enough.

 

Once she gets within a full-move of him, her options multiply: she can try move throughs or move bys (small chance of hitting, but she ends up close to him ready for next turn) or closing to HTH. Using only Flight and STR she burns no significant END. His options in contrast, diminish: to keep her at range with EB and flight and maintain his FF (because if she connects with one of those movethroughs she might stun him even with it up - but without it, a hit will mean death) he's burning END faster than he can replace it. Again, in slow fighting retreat, the odds are heavily weighted in her favour.

 

cheers, Mark

 

You are focusing on opening up the range. EM does not need to do that beyond a certain point. Keeping her at 21" (or eqiuvalent when accounting for vertical distance) is best. At that distance, all he has to do is full move and only turn on his FF when she gets near an object that she can throw. In this situation they are using the same END. They are stalemated, and yes, for me two characters that are equally able to do nothing to each other are equally effective against each other.

 

If she closes to within 20" to 11" things are trickier, and getting her "Knockeddown" or in some other way expending a half phase action is more important. If they are both on the ground at this point, going first and getting a full move away in the air is most important. While the odds of not getting her at least knocked down are pretty slim on average he would have to do better than 6 to get her Knocked Down, but the swing of 2D6 is too risky. Once she is in the air, a 6D6 or 7D6 EB is fairly likely to get at least 6 BODY so a half move and a spread attack should work. Even so, EM wants to remain reactive here. Holding until after she has taken her action, and being ready to do a Pushed Full Move. His problems here are misses, and unusually low rolls, if he manages to generate under 6 BODY she won't take any Knock Down or Knock Back. As long as he consistantly generates at least 6 BODY he will probably increase the range, possibly back to 21". The first time he fails we come to:

 

Within a half move 10" or less, EM is in trouble. His goal here is to get back away from her. If she is going first it is either abort or hopes she misses from the -2 OCV. Biggest gain comes from the biggest risk. Let her take the swing and hopes she either goes for a simple Strike (foolish, she can't Stun him with a straight STR Dam, unless she pushes and gets a fairly good roll), or misses on whatever other attack she uses (most of the good options do have OCV penalties). Than use the Full Action available to put 12" horizontal and 4" vertical distance between you. From there it is a matter of keeping the distance.

 

Yes, this is another stalemate, and EM does not have a non-Environmental based way of taking her down reliably. She has one which will work from what you said about a 3rd of the time. Wether or not that is worth more than the 13 extra points she paid is open to debate. I don't think that she can afford to ignore him entirely if she has a goal other than taking him out, but that may depend heavily on what her goal actually is. That is certainly true for him as well.

[caris]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

But tickety-boo on a grab-by

 

Yes, unfortunately, my book isn't here, but I certainly hope that it has a greater OCV penalty than a standard grab, which decreases her chances of success even more.

[Bloodstone]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Yes' date=' unfortunately, my book isn't here, but I certainly hope that it has a greater OCV penalty than a standard grab, which decreases her chances of success even more.[/quote']

 

oh yeah: -3 OCV, -4 DCV

[caris]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

oh yeah: -3 OCV' date=' -4 DCV[/quote']

 

 

May I subtitle this thread :Changes, Rulings and Additions to core rules from 3rd to 4th Caris hates?

 

Only an additional -1 OCV for a full move and grab? Are you sure that isn't a Martial Manuever?

[Oruncrest]

Re: Changes, Rulings and Additions to core rules from 3rd to 4th Caris hates

 

Only an additional -1 OCV for a full move and grab? Are you sure that isn't a Martial Manuever?

 

Grab By is considered a combination of the standard combat maneuvers Grab (-1 OCV, -2 DCV), and Move By (-2 OCV, -2 DCV), hence the CV modifiers were added together to come up with the CVM for Grab By.

[Bloodstone]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Only an additional -1 OCV for a full move and grab? Are you sure that isn't a Martial Manuever?

 

Nah, the martial version is -2 OCV, -1 DCV +10 STR for holding on and FMove

[Markdoc]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Mark,

 

You keep presenting your experiences with player's behavior in relation to buy STR, but you keep leaving out any additional context.

 

Well, I'm not sure what you mean exactly by that. We're talking about a wide range of games at both heroic and superheroic levels: Cyberpunk, cthuloid pulp, 4 colour supers, Iron Age supers, 2000 AD-inspired science fiction, Martial arts (low powered) Martial arts (High powered), High fantasy, low fantasy, fantasy where the players were demigods: in all cases STR was a characteristic which was bought up by everybody.

 

INT, BOD, PRE on the other hand, not so much (Meaning some chracters had lots and many left it where it was or occasionally sold it back).

 

Nor am I only looking at my own experience. Lifting books off my desk at random, lemmeesee:

Dark Champions - virtually every character has elevated STR, though most of them are human. Many of the human characters have 20 and even the Master of crime, a behind the scenes noncombat style villain has 15. In contrast, the majority have 2 or more stats at 10.

Tuala Morn. One character (the witch, who also has the age disadvantage) does not have elevated STR. In contrast every character has one or more primary stat at 10.

Monsters minions and maruaders - well the merchant has STR 10 - but then almost all of his stats are 10. The Priest has 10, everybody else has elevated STR

 

So I ask you in all seriousness how do each of the other Primary Characteristics meet the implied criterias for proper pricing that you have presented.

 

You could argue that DEX and CON don't, since these are almost always also elevated. CON doesn't bother me too much, since while many people buy some extra CON, it's rare to see it elevated to the extent that STR is. Dex is also pretty much always elevated, and Dex inflation has been the subject of much debate. Again, though DEX can be countered by levels, so it's not a dealbreaker (though I admit, I did consider increasing the price, the payback for doing so is smaller than that to be gained by repricing STR, so I haven't done it)

 

How many times have you seen any of them sold back?

How many times have you seen an arch-type that did not specialize in the Primary Characteristic play with that characteristic at 10?

How many Supers have you seen with any given Primary Characteristic under 20?

 

I have very, very rarely seen DEX sold back (only once IIRC). Likewise, I have rarely (if ever) seen it left at 10. That's understandable, given that it's the primary combat Stat.

CON is likewise rarely sold back or left alone - although it's also not that common for anyone excet brick to have more than 20 in my experience.

BOD, INT, EGO, PRE and COM I have all seen left at 10 on multiple occassions or sold back - and that's reflected in published characters as well.

And as for supers with any primary under 20, I'd say that's most of them.

 

I don't have lot of supers books (not my favourite genre to GM) but rolling over to Surbrooks stuff, in the comic characters section, again we find almost no STR10 or less characters - but virtually every character has one or more primary stat.s at 10. Even Energy blasters have elevated STR.

 

Of course, whether you see that as problem, I guess depends on your perspective: as a GM, I found it a bit tiring to have everyone in a heroic game in the upper reaches of human capacity for STR: but given the rules, it was hard to fault the player's decisions. I am I must say, much happier with STR at 2:1. It's given a bigger range, without negatively impacting the game.

 

cheers, Mark

[JmOz]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Well, I'm not sure what you mean exactly by that. We're talking about a wide range of games at both heroic and superheroic levels: Cyberpunk, cthuloid pulp, 4 colour supers, Iron Age supers, 2000 AD-inspired science fiction, Martial arts (low powered) Martial arts (High powered), High fantasy, low fantasy, fantasy where the players were demigods: in all cases STR was a characteristic which was bought up by everybody.

 

INT, BOD, PRE on the other hand, not so much (Meaning some chracters had lots and many left it where it was or occasionally sold it back).

 

Nor am I only looking at my own experience. Lifting books off my desk at random, lemmeesee:

Dark Champions - virtually every character has elevated STR, though most of them are human. Many of the human characters have 20 and even the Master of crime, a behind the scenes noncombat style villain has 15. In contrast, the majority have 2 or more stats at 10.

Tuala Morn. One character (the witch, who also has the age disadvantage) does not have elevated STR. In contrast every character has one or more primary stat at 10.

Monsters minions and maruaders - well the merchant has STR 10 - but then almost all of his stats are 10. The Priest has 10, everybody else has elevated STR

 

 

 

You could argue that DEX and CON don't, since these are almost always also elevated. CON doesn't bother me too much, since while many people buy some extra CON, it's rare to see it elevated to the extent that STR is. Dex is also pretty much always elevated, and Dex inflation has been the subject of much debate. Again, though DEX can be countered by levels, so it's not a dealbreaker (though I admit, I did consider increasing the price, the payback for doing so is smaller than that to be gained by repricing STR, so I haven't done it)

 

 

 

I have very, very rarely seen DEX sold back (only once IIRC). Likewise, I have rarely (if ever) seen it left at 10. That's understandable, given that it's the primary combat Stat.

CON is likewise rarely sold back or left alone - although it's also not that common for anyone excet brick to have more than 20 in my experience.

BOD, INT, EGO, PRE and COM I have all seen left at 10 on multiple occassions or sold back - and that's reflected in published characters as well.

And as for supers with any primary under 20, I'd say that's most of them.

 

I don't have lot of supers books (not my favourite genre to GM) but rolling over to Surbrooks stuff, in the comic characters section, again we find almost no STR10 or less characters - but virtually every character has one or more primary stat.s at 10. Even Energy blasters have elevated STR.

 

Of course, whether you see that as problem, I guess depends on your perspective: as a GM, I found it a bit tiring to have everyone in a heroic game in the upper reaches of human capacity for STR: but given the rules, it was hard to fault the player's decisions. I am I must say, much happier with STR at 2:1. It's given a bigger range, without negatively impacting the game.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Do you allow frameworks in your heroic games?

[Kenn]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

In my experience... The following list represents 518 characters sheets for a variety of PCs and NPCs, Heroes, Villains, support staff, thugs representing probably 90% of the characters produced by about 5 dozen people, including 7 or 8 GMs across several (a dozen or so) campaigns that make up the bulk of the RC Universe, the super hero universe I've been maintaining for the past 20 years.. Keep in mind the STR scores listed do not include STR from Growth, Density Increase, or outside sources; this is the STR that goes into the figured stats.

 

STR # of CHARS with

0 4

5 2

7 1

8 13

9 2

10 43

11 4

13 74

14 2

15 70

17 1

18 35

19 2

20 47

23 10

25 19

28 1

29 1

30 38

31 1

33 1

35 21

38 3

40 17

45 16

46 2

48 2

49 1

50 10

53 2

55 20

58 2

60 22

63 1

65 15

68 1

70 6

75 3

76 1

78 1

85 1

 

Of that 518, there are exactly 300 (statistical oddity) in the 0-20 "human" range. 155 (51.7%) of them are in the 15-20 range. This is in a super hero campaign where "highly trained normals" are expected. The other 145 fall in the 0-13 range, and honestly, there are a lot of 13 STRs. So while I can say that yeah, there may be some STR stat elevation in my experience, I can't say it's an "everyone does it" situation.

[Markdoc]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

No' date=' if all she can do is half-move she can not close the distance. Because they have the exact same half moves.[/quote']

 

Sigh. Yes. I Know. But when closing Powerwoman is using her WHOLE MOVE. That means she will close on Energyman very rapidly unless he hits her: and the maths says he WON'T hit her most times at range. Even when he does hit her, full move versus his average KNB reduces her move to 13" compared to his 10" half move. The only way he can keep her at a distance is to hit her every phase, so that she has to use a half move reorienting. And he can't. The odds are simply too heavily weighted against him.

 

In short, very soon she is going to reach him. It's simple math. How often does this need to be explained?

 

You are focusing on opening up the range. EM does not need to do that beyond a certain point. Keeping her at 21" (or eqiuvalent when accounting for vertical distance) is best.

 

No, I am focussing on the rules. At 21", he has a -6 range penalty and needs a 5 or less to hit her. Good luck with that. In the 9-16" range he has a -4. At that point he's in range for a movethrough, a grab-by or similar (at the same or better chances of success as he has).

 

So yeah, I agree, keeping her at 21" inches would be best for him. Unfortunately, he's got a 4% chance of hitting her at that range, and if he shoots, she closes the gap by 10" even if he retreats, so he CAN'T "keep her at that range".

 

At that distance' date=' all he has to do is full move and only turn on his FF when she gets near an object that she can throw. In this situation they are using the same END. They are stalemated, and yes, for me two characters that are equally able to do nothing to each other are equally effective against each other.[/quote']

 

See above: his percent chances of hitting her don't rise out of single figures until she's in movethrough range - at which point his chance of hitting her are the same as her chances of moving through him. Please, by all that's holy - for the sake of the children - cease this attempt to persuade me he can keep her at range with his EB. It's like watching someone try push water uphill with a fork made of salt.

 

If she closes to within 20" to 11" things are trickier' date=' and getting her "Knockeddown" or in some other way expending a half phase action is more important. If they are both on the ground at this point, going first and getting a full move away in the air is most important. While the odds of not getting her at least knocked down are pretty slim on average he would have to do better than 6 to get her Knocked Down, but the swing of 2D6 is too risky. Once she is in the air, a 6D6 or 7D6 EB is fairly likely to get at least 6 BODY so a half move and a spread attack should work. Even so, EM wants to remain reactive here. Holding until after she has taken her action, and being ready to do a Pushed Full Move. His problems here are misses, and unusually low rolls, if he manages to generate under 6 BODY she won't take any Knock Down or Knock Back. As long as he consistantly generates at least 6 BODY he will probably increase the range, possibly back to 21". [/quote']

 

A nice analysis if it weren't for the fact that 96% of the time he's going to miss her at 20" (-6 range penalty means a 5 or less to hit). And even at 11" he's got only a 16% chance of connecting. How many times can I say this: she's going to get close, and there is nothing he can do to stop her, except turn tail and run. Now if he does that, she can't catch him, it's true. But it's not very heroic....

 

EM does not have a non-Environmental based way of taking her down reliably. She has one which will work from what you said about a 3rd of the time. Wether or not that is worth more than the 13 extra points she paid is open to debate. I don't think that she can afford to ignore him entirely if she has a goal other than taking him out' date=' but that may depend heavily on what her goal actually is. That is certainly true for him as well.[/quote']

 

I mostly agree with this, with two caveats. First I said she had about a 1 in 3 chance of grabbing him - but that's just a matter of time, once she's close. Once she's grabbed him, her environmental based approach - the crater-maker - has a near 100% chance of taking him out. As I have said, if that option is available (ie: they're over the ground and not really, really high up, or inside a building or something), it's only a matter of time

 

The second caveat that she could in many cases, just ignore him. At ranges longer than her move, his chance of hitting her is tiny and he'll do almost no damage if he hits. If he haymakers, that leaves him terribly terribly vulnerable: she gets to act before him, he's at -5 DCV. He'll want to be doing that from outside her move range, which leaves him again with a 4% or less chance of hitting her.

 

In contrast, if he comes within her move distance, she can try a movethrough, which gives her a 1 in 6 chance of hitting him - a lot better odds than he has at 20", and doing 17d6 (movethrough) compared to his 10d6 - plus placing her in range for a grab. In short, environment or no, her odds are better and her damage output higher. If he hits her, she takes a little STUN. If she moves through him, he takes a LOT of stun - and a 50/50 chance of being stunned, which for him is likely a fight ender. Even if the fight took place high in the sky, the smart money's still on her.

 

I don't mean to sound awful, but I have been wondering all afternoon: do you play or GM Hero very often? It's something that's easy to forget when you are making characters, but in actual play, it rapidly becomes apparent that range penalties are pretty punitive. In my experience, (yeah, I know, that phrase again) a character with ranged attacks needs either a very high OCV, or plenty of CSLs (and preferrably both) to attack effectively at range. Otherwise, they have to get close, to have much chance of hitting anything and .... well, you can see how that ends up.

 

This has been an interesting discussion, in part because of Keen's decison to make two identical characters with one relying of STR and one relying on EB: I must confess, we've never done precisely that exercise. For me, it does confirm my earlier decision on STR - but at the same time, in actual games, things are not usually so lopsided as this matchup. There's no need - for example - for Energy guy to have such a high PD: if he ends up in close proximity to a brick, he's gonna get stomped anyway. If he had used some of those points for Range PSLs or a brick-hurting attack (an NND, a 1 hex accurate, double KNB EB, whatever) then things would be a lot less unequal. If he bought down his enormous CON and bought more CSLs and an better move, that would also offer him more protection.

 

Basically, as this example shows, STR gives a substantial advantage, but in-game it's not always an overwhelming advantage.

 

cheers, Mark