Combat, Aborting & Phases

[Thia Halmades]

Okay, this is really quite straightforward, I think I get it, but I want to clarify. So the situation is simple:

 

We have two characters, one at SPD 3/DEX 15 (Gobbo) & one at SPD 4/DEX 20 (Ninja). With me? Good.

 

Phase 12 (Combat begins): Ninja opts to open and attacks Gobbo. He hits. Gobbo takes damage.

 

Phase 12: Gobbo swings back and hits Ninja, who cannot abort because he already went on 12. Correct? Ninja is stuck.

 

Phase 3: Ninja hits Gobbo again, 'cause he can.

 

Phase 4: Gobbo attacks Ninja; Ninja CAN Abort, but not after the dice are dropped. He's stuck. He either declares his abort once the attack is declared, OR, he lets the dice fall, correct?

 

Phase 4: Ninja aborts, because it's required for the discussion.

 

Phase 6: Ninja loses this phase, he aborted.

 

Phase 8: Gobbo attacks Ninja, and Ninja takes it.

 

Phase 9: Ninja attacks Gobbo. Gobbo BLOCKS.

 

Phase 12: Gobbo goes before Ninja because he blocked. Can Ninja abort because he hasn't gone on 12 yet? If so, does he lose 12? And then go on 3?

 

Ancillary question: Ninja & HobNinja go at it. On 3, HobNinja attacks first, and Ninja aborts. This trickles down to 6; on 6, after Ninjas normal turn to act has past (DEX 20), he no longer receives the benefit of his previous abort, we'll say, Dodge, correct? There's a window between when the effect ends (At his turn on 6) and before he can abort again (7).

 

Do I have any of that screwed up?

[Edsel]

Re: Combat, Aborting & Phases

 

All of it seems correct to me.

 

In the ancillay question the ninja can chose to Dodge normally on his DEX as his action in Phase 6. If he choses to hold that action he can use the held PHA to abort to a defensive action if needed, but once he attacks in phase 6 then the soonest he could abort would be on Phase 7.

[Alibear]

Re: Combat, Aborting & Phases

 

My question is why Ninja dude isn't continuing his phase 6 abort on Gobbo dude's attack on 8? He didn't dodge? He failed his block roll?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Combat, Aborting & Phases

 

Do I have any of that screwed up?

 

Only the ninja's tactics!

[Alibear]

Re: Combat, Aborting & Phases

 

edit: you are considered dodging until the GM says, "Ninja dude, what are you doing?"

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Combat, Aborting & Phases

 

But to be clear:

 

Ninja aborts on 4.

 

On PH6/DEX 20, he has now lost the benefit of his last abort. Anyone can roll up on him and tag him, and all he has is his straight DCV, plus any CSLs he committed to it. Yes?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Combat, Aborting & Phases

 

But to be clear:

 

Ninja aborts on 4.

 

On PH6/DEX 20, he has now lost the benefit of his last abort. Anyone can roll up on him and tag him, and all he has is his straight DCV, plus any CSLs he committed to it. Yes?

 

 

Nope.

 

If he aborted to a dodge on 4 then he is considered as dodging until he next has an action. That would be segment 9. If he had aborted to a block then he would be making a tactical error. As you are aware by insisting on the abort on phase 4 after attacking on phase 3 he could have delayed his phase 3 attack to dodge the blow on 4 and then attacked normally on 6 and 9 (much better tactics)

 

Doc

[Tonio]

Re: Combat, Aborting & Phases

 

Nope.

 

If he aborted to a dodge on 4 then he is considered as dodging until he next has an action. That would be segment 9. If he had aborted to a block then he would be making a tactical error. As you are aware by insisting on the abort on phase 4 after attacking on phase 3 he could have delayed his phase 3 attack to dodge the blow on 4 and then attacked normally on 6 and 9 (much better tactics)

 

Doc

 

IIRC, once you perform an action - regardless of whether you Aborted to it or not - you get the benefits of that action until you perform another action, not until you get the chance to perform another action. So if you Abort to Dodge, you get the added DCV even after your aborted Phase passes, even after the Segment where you get your next available Phase starts, and even after the DEX where you'd take your action starts, if you decide to Hold your Action. Whenever you perform a different action, that's when your bonuses change (to those the new action gives you).

 

I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain that's how it goes (and it certainly feels right, and balanced).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Combat, Aborting & Phases

 

Neg, and here's why:

 

Because IIRC, it specifically says that once his turn rolls around on 6, he can't abort until 7. And I'll double check the exact language, but I'm fairly certain that a window exists throughout 6 (when he cannot act, because he aborted) until 7 when he CAN abort again.

[Tonio]

Re: Combat, Aborting & Phases

 

Yeah, he can't Abort again until the Segment after the one where he'd have his Phase, but that doesn't address whether his bonuses from his current action apply or not. =)

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Combat, Aborting & Phases

 

Yeah' date=' he can't Abort again until the Segment after the one where he'd have his Phase, but that doesn't address whether his bonuses from his current action apply or not. =)[/quote']

 

That's the way I've always played it, you aborted the action that you could normally have first performed on segment six and so you are committed until segment six doing whatever you aborted to. Obviously on segment seven you could abort the segment nine action to do some other defensive action.

 

Now. if you dont abort the segment nine action then the effects of abort action on segment four continue until the character is next able to act normally - segment nine - or until they decide to do something different from the action aborted to on segment four - he could continue dodging, for example, indefinitely.

 

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Combat, Aborting & Phases

 

Phase 4: Gobbo attacks Ninja; Ninja CAN Abort' date=' [i']but not after the dice are dropped[/i]. He's stuck. He either declares his abort once the attack is declared, OR, he lets the dice fall, correct?

 

Been looking in FREd. Now as far as teh dice falling, there are specific mentions that block actions have to be declared before the dice are thrown in FRED, there is no such mention in either the aborting rules nor in the dodge or dive for cover manouevre descriptions.

 

Possibly an oversight, possibly deliberate.

 

 

Doc

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Combat, Aborting & Phases

 

Okay, this is really quite straightforward, I think I get it, but I want to clarify. So the situation is simple:

 

We have two characters, one at SPD 3/DEX 15 (Gobbo) & one at SPD 4/DEX 20 (Ninja). With me? Good.

 

Phase 12 (Combat begins): Ninja opts to open and attacks Gobbo. He hits. Gobbo takes damage.

 

Phase 12: Gobbo swings back and hits Ninja, who cannot abort because he already went on 12. Correct? Ninja is stuck.

Correct.

 

Phase 3: Ninja hits Gobbo again, 'cause he can.

 

Phase 4: Gobbo attacks Ninja; Ninja CAN Abort, but not after the dice are dropped. He's stuck. He either declares his abort once the attack is declared, OR, he lets the dice fall, correct?

Correct.

 

Phase 4: Ninja aborts, because it's required for the discussion.

 

Phase 6: Ninja loses this phase, he aborted.

 

Phase 8: Gobbo attacks Ninja, and Ninja takes it.

Okay, but recognize that Ninja could have Aborted here, if he wanted to.

 

Phase 9: Ninja attacks Gobbo. Gobbo BLOCKS.

 

Phase 12: Gobbo goes before Ninja because he blocked.

No, Gobbo doesn't go at all, because he Aborted his 12 to Block Ninja on 9.

Can Ninja abort because he hasn't gone on 12 yet? If so, does he lose 12? And then go on 3?

Yes, yes, and yes.

 

Ancillary question: Ninja & HobNinja go at it. On 3, HobNinja attacks first, and Ninja aborts.

Aborts his 3, I assume. In other words, Ninja hadn't acted yet on 3 when he Aborted, right?

This trickles down to 6; on 6, after Ninjas normal turn to act has past (DEX 20), he no longer receives the benefit of his previous abort, we'll say, Dodge, correct?

Correct.

There's a window between when the effect ends (At his turn on 6) and before he can abort again (7).

Only if he did something with his 6. He's not prevented from Aborting simply because it's past his DEX on 6. He would only be prevented from Aborting on 6 if he'd used his action.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Combat, Aborting & Phases

 

Only if he did something with his 6. He's not prevented from Aborting simply because it's past his DEX on 6. He would only be prevented from Aborting on 6 if he'd used his action.

 

Wait. My understanding is different, because of this:

 

Once a character Aborts, he cannot Abort again or take any other Actions until after the Phase he Aborted has passed. frex, suppose a SPD 4 character (Ph. 3, 6, 9, 12) Aborts his Phase in Segment 6 in Segment 4 to Dodge an Attack. He cannot Abort again, or take any other Actions, in Segments 4, 5 or 6.

 

Ergo, my understanding is that if you abort anywhere after your 3 (as it were), then once you hit 6, you're boned until 7. Thoughts?

[mallet]

Re: Combat, Aborting & Phases

 

I think it all depends on what you Abort To.

 

If you abort to Dodge then you are still considered Dodging until your next action (not phase), but if you Abort to Block then, yes, you are boned. At least that is my interpertation.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Combat, Aborting & Phases

 

It makes more sense to me that no defense is perfect; my interpretation of the rules means just that; even though you abort on 4, and your next Phase would be on 6, you lose any benefits of your Abort and cannot either Abort or act until 7. Just seems more reasonable.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Combat, Aborting & Phases

 

Wait. My understanding is different, because of this:

 

 

 

Ergo, my understanding is that if you abort anywhere after your 3 (as it were), then once you hit 6, you're boned until 7. Thoughts?

 

But in your example, the SPD 4 Ninja didn't abort his 6... he aborted his 3.

[casualplayer]

Re: Combat, Aborting & Phases

 

Been looking in FREd. Now as far as teh dice falling, there are specific mentions that block actions have to be declared before the dice are thrown in FRED, there is no such mention in either the aborting rules nor in the dodge or dive for cover manouevre descriptions.

 

Possibly an oversight, possibly deliberate.

 

 

Doc

 

Waitasecond! You have to declare a Block before you know that it's going to hit?! Isn't that a little like the tv Wonder Woman swatting bullets out of the air that were going to miss by a mile? That doesn't make any sense.

 

Threads to clarify things aren't supposed to confuse me more!

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Combat, Aborting & Phases

 

It makes more sense to me that no defense is perfect; my interpretation of the rules means just that; even though you abort on 4' date=' and your next Phase [i']would be[/i] on 6, you lose any benefits of your Abort and cannot either Abort or act until 7. Just seems more reasonable.

 

We've always played it that you gain the benefits until the next segment in which you actually have an action, so if you abort, you keep the benefits until the phase after you aborted too - in your case segment 9. It's never seemed overbalancing in our games.

 

Edit- In the Lazer example of Aborting on page 362

"doing so [aborting] uses up his phase in Segment 8 - when Segment 8 rolls around Lazer can do nothing (btu at least he'll still have hte benefit of the extra DCV from his Dodge)"

 

So you keep whatever benefit you aborted to in the phase you would have acted in, and it seem logical that this lasts until the next actual action.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Combat, Aborting & Phases

 

Waitasecond! You have to declare a Block before you know that it's going to hit?! Isn't that a little like the tv Wonder Woman swatting bullets out of the air that were going to miss by a mile? That doesn't make any sense.

 

Threads to clarify things aren't supposed to confuse me more!

 

In 4th the only manuever that could be declared after the dice were rolled was Roll with Blow.

 

Basically once the dice land, if they hit, it hits, if they miss, it misses. You can choose to abort to the block, but yeah, you might be blocking (or missle deflecting) an attack that would have missed.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Combat, Aborting & Phases

 

Been looking in FREd. Now as far as teh dice falling, there are specific mentions that block actions have to be declared before the dice are thrown in FRED, there is no such mention in either the aborting rules nor in the dodge or dive for cover manouevre descriptions.

 

Possibly an oversight, possibly deliberate.

 

 

Doc

 

IT does say under Roll with a Punch (page 396 5ER)

"This maneuver is unique because a character may perform it after he's been struck by an opponent's attack (i.e, after the opponent's attack Roll suceeds, but before he rolls damage.)"

 

Plus on page 361 under aborting

"Typically a character muyst declare an Abort when an attacker announced he's attacking that cahracter, but before any rolls are made. A character can't wait to see whether Attack Roll misses, and if it hits, then declare an Abort"

[Kdansky]

Re: Combat, Aborting & Phases

 

The book is *very* clear on this, if you are a speed 2 character and abort in segment 1 to dodge (which removes your 6), then you get +3 DCV until segment 12 where you can finally act again.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Combat, Aborting & Phases

 

You cannot take a new action, but your bonuses hold through until your are next able to take an action.

 

So Ninja is "safe" from when he Aborted through 6, past 7, and into 9.

 

Derek- Good catch on Gobo acting twice!

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Combat, Aborting & Phases

 

Plus on page 361 under aborting

"Typically a character muyst declare an Abort when an attacker announced he's attacking that cahracter, but before any rolls are made. A character can't wait to see whether Attack Roll misses, and if it hits, then declare an Abort"

 

Didn't see that in FRED - possibly a 5ER clarification? Possibly Doc not reading the damn rules properly!

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Combat, Aborting & Phases

 

If you abort, you can't take another abort action (or any other action for that matter) until the segment after the phase you aborted from, so if you used your phase 6 to abort (anywhere between the beginning of phase 4 and your DEX on phase 6) you can't take another action, including an abort action until the start of segment 7.

 

That is my understanding.