Bow & Arrows separately.

[eternal_sage]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

sorry, but i think i misunderstood you. i thought you were basically saying this was all irrelevant, since the rules already say how to do it. looking back, you did not. i appologize, and add that i'm not sure exactly what his end goal is in this.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

No worries, I could have been more explicit, but I know Thia - he'll gimme an answer to why it matters.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

One advantage of doing it this way is that you can stab someone with your arrows when your bow gets broken, and not have to ask the GM for permission to do so.

 

Like the +20 STR for the bow, Eternal Sage. That's nice and accurately reflects the increased mechanical efficiency of using the bow (for a certain degree of cinematic accuracy anyway ) I'd probably have the bow do the range AND the extra strength though, because range based on strength is pretty poor range, and probably should depend on whether you are running or prone.

[GamePhil]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

This is going to be both abbreviated and complicated, and may be technically illegal without some reworking, it's past my bedtime:

 

Quiver Of Arrows: X pt Multipower, OIF

s-Thrown Arrow: 1 Pip RKA, Limited Range Unless Using Bow (1", -0), X Recoverable Charges

s-Hand-Held Arrow: 1 Pip HKA, Each Arrow Counts As OAF While Being Used And Costs A Charge From Thrown Arrow If Lost Or Broken (-1/4)

 

Increase damage for broadheads, add slots if you have arrows that do different things, and so on. Most other Powers will be on the same Limited Range as the Thrown Arrow, or the Advantage version of it for +1/4.

 

Bow: +Xd6 RKA (adds to Thrown Arrow), 0 END, OAF, 2-Handed, STR Minimum, Must Have Arrow

 

If you have a EB arrow, also buy a Power to increase the EB. I believe it is technically illegal (tired), but I'd allow them in a Multipower and add it to the Arrow pool.

 

If you have other Powers that need to have Range attached, also buy a NPA for up to X Points in Arrows through the bow.

 

If the bow adds properties to the arrows in addition to range and damage, those would have to be bought as well. If a separate Power (Darkness Arrow that still sticks into target for damage as well as creates darkness), it would have to be used in an MPA. If intended to be used without hitting the target, it would simply use up one of the Thrown Arrow charges. Works best with 0 END and Requires Arrow, or something like that, so that you can always have it as long as you have an arrow.

 

Does that cover everything?

[eternal_sage]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

hence the "Increased Range" advantage on it (which i tweaked to only work with a bow to fire it from), to bump it up to where you want the range to be. the real problem with this build is the whole "double weapon DCs from STR" thing. if you can stab for 1/2d6, the best you can get shooting them (even with +100 STR) is 1d6+1. of course, i'd handwave that on this case, and count the 4 DCs from the bow's +20 STR as a part of the 2 DCs from the arrow for a total of 6 DCs before extra STR over STR Min.

 

why would i handwave it? its elegant and simple, and doesn't work only because of a rule designed for another use is interacting with it. since the simplest solution that works (even within the scope of the rules, if all you want is 1d6+1) is usually the best one, i'd have to say i'm not sure how much better you're going to get.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

hence the "Increased Range" advantage on it (which i tweaked to only work with a bow to fire it from), to bump it up to where you want the range to be. the real problem with this build is the whole "double weapon DCs from STR" thing. if you can stab for 1/2d6, the best you can get shooting them (even with +100 STR) is 1d6+1. of course, i'd handwave that on this case, and count the 4 DCs from the bow's +20 STR as a part of the 2 DCs from the arrow for a total of 6 DCs before extra STR over STR Min.

 

why would i handwave it? its elegant and simple, and doesn't work only because of a rule designed for another use is interacting with it. since the simplest solution that works (even within the scope of the rules, if all you want is 1d6+1) is usually the best one, i'd have to say i'm not sure how much better you're going to get.

 

I'd probably get into a lot less trouble if I read things properly wouldn't I?

 

Nice build

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

No worries' date=' I could have been more explicit, but I know Thia - he'll gimme an answer to why it matters.[/quote']

 

I'm predictable like that, yeah. First, thanks to all of you for posting your thoughts thus far. Yes, I need a femme-bot. If she looks like Cortana, that would be a level of heaven to which I can only aspire. Rep to those who've contributed thus far that I can hit. Here's why it matters, as such:

 

In my heroic setting, everyone gets a resource pool. If you look at the many many ways in which ammunition is broken out, it became clear (to me) that there was no "good way" to model the ammunition itself. I didn't see a clean way to cost it out across the game, and I want to do that. I want to know how much a clip of APHEX ammunition should cost when you put it into your Resource Pool; this is HERO, after all, and I should be able to do that.

 

I of course encountered an extremely similar problem when I picked up Fantasy HERO and it says things like "And of course there are Armor Piercing Arrows." Well of course there are. What do those cost? How do I slot them? Derek's example was a solid one, but clearly in the super-heroic genre. Not the heroic one. So here's what I'm envisioning; I just need to figure out how to put the freaking thing together.

 

AGREED, in advance, that this contains a certain level of "handwavium." Or I think it does. It depends on the model, really. But the premise is simple:

 

You have arrows. They're generally built as 1d6 HKA, OAF (arrow). X charges, recoverable (you can model a quiver fairly easily using the X charges bit). However, using this method, it becomes dirt easy to make it a Flame Arrow (either via a change in damage type (normal to flame) or by adding damage, or additional SFX to the arrow itself), an Ice Arrow, an Affects Desolid arrow, and so on.

 

And, as Ocelot pointed out, maybe you want a bow SO POWERFUL that it, in turn, makes anything fired from it Armor Piercing. This, also, makes sense, but can't be done under the current application of the rules. They don't hold up because the modeling is off. So what I'm trying to figure out how to do is very simply:

 

Bow, NPA Range, Adds Range only to appropriate missiles (arrows, -1). OAF (bow). You can't put STR Minima on it, because, well... you can't. You're stuck. However, as a Compound Power, it also picks up:

 

EITHER, extra "damage" that stacks with the arrow, or the idea I had earlier, extra STR, although you're jammed on the natural limitation "can only do up to double damage." Well I can't stab someone with an arrow for 2d6, that doesn't make sense. I could, however, have a Heavy Longbow that by its nature adds 1d6 damage to any arrow fired from it, because of the power of the pull.

 

IOW, I want to accurately model each bow (or crossbow) so that I can enchant bows, or enchant arrows, with equal ease. So when my archer finds "armor piercing arrows," I know that 12 of those have a set cost (1d6 HKA + 1/2 AP, and all subsequent limitations).

 

Once I figure this out, I'll model firearms in the exact same way. This gun may give a +1 OCV because it's well made; this one may have +1 DC for its rifling, and the bullets will be 9mm, 1d6+1, "must be fired, -1/4" or something equally simple that I can apply across the board. Yes, I realize that I may be going into far more depth than most people like, but for me, and my purposes, this is actually the simpler long term solution.

[Ocelot]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

To the second, a VPP is one choice for modelling this. I'm assuming, of course, that the arrows are not equipment (purchased with money rather than points), which would eliminate any issues of adding arrows on the fly.

What model do you use for wizards adding spells, rogues adding stealth feats or warriors adding weapon tricks on the fly?

 

Yeah, I want these as equipment.

 

Part of my problem (I've completely stopped caring about Thia's problem ) stems from the fact that my bows do different damage, with the same arrow.

 

So one bow, STR Min 12 does 2d6, and another has a STR Min 16 and does 2 1/2d6 (STR Mins don't add to damage). Then you have arrows that do extra fire damage, or are indirect, or even heal.

 

And the Indirect can be a function of the arrow or the bow.

 

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

To the first, it sounds like those bows have some extra naked power advantages to apply to arrows.

 

To the second, a VPP is one choice for modelling this. I'm assuming, of course, that the arrows are not equipment (purchased with money rather than points), which would eliminate any issues of adding arrows on the fly.

 

What model do you use for wizards adding spells, rogues adding stealth feats or warriors adding weapon tricks on the fly?

 

Um, far as I know, they don't add those on the fly, Hugh, but you know, different games. No, the VPP won't work for a bow & arrow; I mean it would, but not for my purposes.

 

Wizards learn spells by researching them or scribing them into books. Warriors generally stick to Martial Maneuvers or specifically purchased powers; I haven't seen one break out a new ability without some set up. And Rogues are the same way; if they want a new "power" they can certainly pull a power stunt, that's allowed, but after once or twice they need to pay the points to 'learn' it. I'm not sure what one has to do with t'other in this case.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Part of my problem (I've completely stopped caring about Thia's problem )

 

Well right there, that's the problem.

 

stems from the fact that my bows do different damage, with the same arrow.

 

So one bow, STR Min 12 does 2d6, and another has a STR Min 16 and does 2 1/2d6 (STR Mins don't add to damage). Then you have arrows that do extra fire damage, or are indirect, or even heal.

 

And the Indirect can be a function of the arrow or the bow.

 

 

This is precisely the problem I'm addressing and wish to fix, yes. Welcome to the problem. I want ARROWS to do the same damage, but the BOW to modify it. Just like it should. A Heavy Long does more damage than a short; fine! Fine, that's great! But I want that modeled properly so each arrow can be modeled properly.

[eternal_sage]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

...so you didn't like mine? .....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

see if i help you anymore! and i'm tellin MOM!!!

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

oh, how about this! ok, like Sean said above, but make the Arrows 1/2 HKA, RBS. Then make the bow +20 STR (only to throw arrows and do damage, -1/4) which will make the whole thing at range do 2d6 HKA (plus any other STR to add into it) and since Arrows are really light (according to Ultimate Brick) you should have at least +75 STR for launching the beast (not including STR over 10) giving you approximately a 30" range on the shot (standing shot) or 60" if you want to call it a running shot. toss a dab of Increased Maximum Range (-1/4) on, and it can be anywhere up to 300"

 

8 Arrows: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1/2d6 (vs. PD), 20 Charges (+0), Range Based On STR (+1/4), Increased Maximum Range ("Your Desired Maximum Range Here", Only When Used With a Bow; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (20 Active Points); OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4), Beam (-1/4) [20]

 

9 Bow: +20 STR, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (30 Active Points); OAF (-1), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Only To Throw Arrows and Add To Their Damage (-1/4)

 

You mean this? It's actually fairly close to what I'm looking for, yes, with the intent that you would in fact be adding damage. But now you're dealing with RNG based on STR, basically, and that isn't quite right either, even if that means making my NPA Range with Additional Range.

 

See what I mean? Yes, this is good, and close to what I want, but doesn't hold up totally for the distance an arrow fired from a bow can actually travel. I didn't NOT like it. It just isn't exactly right. The arrow can't carry the maximum range on this model; the arrow has no range of its own. The bow must supply the range.

 

And you're not telling Mom anything without either a Child Necromancer or a Seance.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

And' date=' as Ocelot pointed out, maybe you want a bow SO POWERFUL that it, in turn, makes anything fired from it Armor Piercing. This, also, makes sense, but can't be done under the current application of the rules.[/quote']

 

Using any Bow build out of the book .....

 

Powerful Bow: NPA: Armor Piercing; OAF: Bow; 2 Hands; etc

 

sure can be done. Is how I normally do it.

[Willpower]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

This is a bit complex, though not overly so. It may aso seem a bit useless to some people, but I think I get some of the ideas involved. The way I have done something like this in the past is to build a multipower for the arrows, and it had the limitations OAF: arrows (-1) and No Range (-1/2). Then you purchase the naked advantage Ranged (+1/2) for up to the active points in the multipower. It also gets the limitation OAF: Bow (-1). Some of the basic things this allows, that isn't allowed with a straight Multipower with the limitation OAF: Bow and Arrows (-1) is that if you don't have your bow with you for some reason, say it is broke, you can pull out an arrow and use it in hand to hand.

 

Bullseye did this trick a couple of times in the Avengers. The GM may even allow the archer to throw the arrowheads if needed at particular penalties.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Using any Bow build out of the book .....

 

Powerful Bow: NPA: Armor Piercing; OAF: Bow; 2 Hands; etc

 

sure can be done. Is how I normally do it.

 

mmhmm. And how much would an Armor Piercing Arrow cost? Or a Flame Arrow Cost?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

This is a bit complex, though not overly so. It may aso seem a bit useless to some people, but I think I get some of the ideas involved. The way I have done something like this in the past is to build a multipower for the arrows, and it had the limitations OAF: arrows (-1) and No Range (-1/2). Then you purchase the naked advantage Ranged (+1/2) for up to the active points in the multipower. It also gets the limitation OAF: Bow (-1). Some of the basic things this allows, that isn't allowed with a straight Multipower with the limitation OAF: Bow and Arrows (-1) is that if you don't have your bow with you for some reason, say it is broke, you can pull out an arrow and use it in hand to hand.

 

Bullseye did this trick a couple of times in the Avengers. The GM may even allow the archer to throw the arrowheads if needed at particular penalties.

 

So you're saying Multi-Power, which I get, but isn't quite right for this discussion, because the BOW isn't paying for the arrows (as slots). The Bow is a Bow. It's always a bow. It always adds the same damage and the same range. I literally (and no one's done it yet, including me) want to model a Bow that simply adds range & damage, and then arrows, separately. Multipower won't work in this case. Good idea for a Champions character, not so much for what I'm going for here. Rep for the effort, though.

[eternal_sage]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

22 New Bow: Telekinesis (30 STR), Fine Manipulation, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (82 Active Points); OAF (-1), Only To Stab With Arrows (-1/2), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Beam (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4)

 

7 New Arrows: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1/2d6 (1d6+1 w/STR) (vs. PD), 10 Recoverable Charges (+0), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (15 Active Points); OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) [10 rc]

 

how about these? this more what your looking for? the range is all on the bow, the damage all comes from the arrows being modified by the bow, but still there is the double issue (handwavium at your service).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

mmhmm. And how much would an Armor Piercing Arrow cost? Or a Flame Arrow Cost?

 

Start stacking!

 

NPAs can contain more than one Advantage.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Bow, all slots OAF (-1)

7 1) Ranged (+1/2) for up to 30 Active Points of Arrows (15 Active Points); OAF (-1)

6 2) +15 STR, (15 Active Points); OAF (-1), No Figured Characteristics (-1/2)

 

15 Arrows: Multipower, 30-point reserve, 8 Recoverable Charges (+0) (30 Active Points); all slots OAF (-1)

1u 1) Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6 (2d6 w/STR) (15 Active Points); OAF (-1)

1u 2) Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1/2d6 (1d6+1 w/STR), Armor Piercing (+1/2) (15 Active Points); OAF (-1)

 

So, your basic arrows are 1d6 HKAs, and the bow makes that up to 2d6. Your armour piercing arrows are 1/2d6 and the bow makes that up to 1d6+1.

 

The Ranged NPA allows up to 30 points active to be ranged, so a 15 point arrow and 15 points of strength damage adds (the handwavium is that you can't add range to strength, but I won't tell anyone if you don't). A 10 point 1/2d6 with AP adds strength at the rate of 1DC for 7.5 STR so the 15 point scan double it up to the max of 4DCs.

 

Moreover, even an arrow up to 30 AP (2d6, 4d6 w/ STR) can be shot from the bow: 2d6 HKA ranged (from the first bow slot), then the strength would have to be prorated: you can add +2DCs with the bow STR, and, if you have 30 additional strength of your own you can get it up to 4d6. So most of your magic arrows are covered too, when you find some.

 

I think that is a better way than adding a AP NPA,to the bow, but your view might differ.

 

Hmm...NPA with variable advantage....nah

[clsage]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

I will check Gadgets & Gear, C, and see if I can dig something out, but if you could post the reference when you get home, that'd be great.

Sorry it took awhile for me to check:

Check pages 37 thru 42 in Gadgets and Gear for a

couple of ways to build bows and arrows....

 

-Carl-

[MorpheousXO]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Ok, so let's say you put extra damage onto the bow and say it stacks with the arrow thrown. If you do that, you can put the STR Minima on that. Then what you'd have to do with the arrows, though, is if it's armor piercing you have to make them a compound power with an NPA big enough to cover the arrow damage PLUS the damage added from the largest bow. Just something rolling around in my head as I read this.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Ok' date=' so let's say you put extra damage onto the bow and say it stacks with the arrow thrown. If you do that, you can put the STR Minima on that. Then what you'd have to do with the arrows, though, is if it's armor piercing you have to make them a compound power with an NPA big enough to cover the arrow damage PLUS the damage added from the largest bow. Just something rolling around in my head as I read this.[/quote']

 

That's a very nice approach for a 'normal' arrow@

 

Arrow 1d6 RKA (requires Bow)

Bow +1d6 RKA

 

Not sure how it would work out with AP arrows though.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Okay, based on what we've discussed so far, this is about what I want the bow to look like (I think).

 

Heavy Longbow: (Total: 45 Active Cost, 12 Real Cost) Ranged (+1/2) for up to 60 Active Points of Arrows & Bolts (30 Active Points); OAF (-1), Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only for Arrows; -1), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) (Real Cost: 9) plus Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6 (15 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 13 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), Only to add to Base Damage of Arrow Power loses about half of its effectiveness (-1), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), No STR Bonus (-1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3)

 

I'm still fiddling with final numbers (should an arrow be 1d6? 2 DCs (1/2 d6?) but this is a very rough approximation of what I'm thinking of. Arrows then would be (as an example),

 

Arrows: Hand-To-Hand Attack +1d6, 12 Recoverable Charges (+1/4) (6 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), OIF Durable (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), STR Minimum 4 (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2)

 

Which splits the Bow element (which now simply adds range to the arrows) from the arrow element (which can now be enchanted to exact costs & specifications). This is a rough draft; let me know your thoughts. Currently I think arrows may be too powerful and I need to knock them down to 2 DC, and then map up bows from there as necessary.

[GamePhil]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Arrows: Hand-To-Hand Attack +1d6, 12 Recoverable Charges (+1/4) (6 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), OIF Durable (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), STR Minimum 4 (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2)

 

One quibble, which is the reason I went to bizzarre lengths before: The way this is built, every time you hit someone with an arrow you lose that arrow until it is recovered. You should be able to keep the arrow in hand until you use it as a ranged attack, it breaks, or someone takes it away from you. As you didn't want to hand-waive the possibility of using the arrow as a hand weapon, I didn't think you'd want to hand-waive that, either.

 

As for the bow, shouldn't it be able to be used as a club if you have no arrows?

[Southern Cross]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Actually,there's an option in the Focus rules which allows a power to require two foci or it operates at half strength,but the value of the Focus limitation is reduced by 1/4.

Sample Bows & Arrows:1d6+1HKA,Range based on Strength(+1/4),Reduced Endurance(0END)(+1/2)(35Active Points)(OAF-Bows &Arrows(2foci)(-3/4)(20 Real Points).