Bow & Arrows separately.

[Thia Halmades]

Okay, normally I'd post my own build and say "Well, what do you cats think?" but I'm completely stuck, to be honest. The premise is that it's easier (for me -- so please no comments about how I'm going about this "the long way," assume I've done all that and this is the conclusion of reached)

 

So. I need to build the bow as... a Compound Power? That contains both the NPA Ranged +1/2, up to, say, 45 active points? To cover variations on 1d6 Arrow Damage plus that arrows Advantages (if any, such as Armor Piercing, Penetrating, Affects Desolid, whatever).

 

I'm guessing that each arrow is simply 1d6 RKA, No Range? Or 1d6 HKA, STR does not apply? I'm stuck on this bit. And then, of course, the "weight" of the bow (short, standard, long, heavy long) would add the appropriate damage (or lack thereof) to the arrow itself.

 

The idea being that by using this system it becomes simpler (once the front-end is done) to model and price out ammunition types, because instead of being made of Handwavium or weirdly modeled NPAs of their own, each is a separate and complete power.

 

SO. What do you guys think? How would you model the bow, specifically, and get in limitations like STR Minima stacked onto it, which HDv3 doesn't like on an NPA Ranged (+1/2) which is throwing things off as it is. So the floor is open.

 

And, the obligatory,

[pawsplay]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

A bow by itself doesn't do anything.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

The complicated way ...

 

Build the various arrows as a Multipower, OIF Quiver (the quiver is fairly hard to disarm, being strapped on), No Range (or Limited Range if you think people can throw arrows worth a damn).

 

Then, you buy the bow as a focussed 'buying off' of the No Range/Limited Range limitation on the MP, OAF Bow. Now, the archer can stab/throw arrows if need be, but is far better off loading them into the bow and shooting. I don't think HD will do that trick with buying off the limitation with a Focus, so you'll have to use Custom Power and do the math on paper.

[pawsplay]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Or you could buy the bow as extra STR, "Only for 'throwing' arrows" (-1 1/2).

[clsage]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

 

How would you model the bow, specifically, and get in limitations like STR Minima stacked onto it, which HDv3 doesn't like on an NPA Ranged (+1/2) which is throwing things off as it is. So the floor is open.

 

And, the obligatory,

 

Hmmm. Well, as I'm here at work I don't have my copy of Gadgets And Gear

at hand but I seem to recall that there is a methodology presented in it that

tells how to build bows as seperate entities from the projectiles involved. If

you have access to a copy you might give it a look....And once I get home I'll

take a gander and see if I can post some of what is suggested.

 

-Carl-

[Bloodstone]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Another option: OAF. Requires Multiple Foci (bow and arrows; arrows are kept in OIF quiver and are No Range or Range Based on STR without OAF Bow)

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

A bow by itself doesn't do anything.

 

Sure it does. It's an NPA; it's a Naked Power Advantage, so yes, "you're right," by itself it isn't doing anything. It does, however, 'pay off' the naturally limited HKA of an Arrow by making it "ranged." Additionally, it can add damage based on the pull of the bow, which is where the STR minima has to go. I think. Curses.

 

Anyway. So my current thinking is that the Bow has to be an NPA to cover, say, 60 total points... I can't imagine an arrow doing more than 1d6 1/2 with a +1/2 advantage, and if there is, I can always make a 'bigger bow.' I will check Gadgets & Gear, C, and see if I can dig something out, but if you could post the reference when you get home, that'd be great.

[pawsplay]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

I don't think a bow is a NPA. Arrows just aren't very useful without one.

 

EDIT: Although a bow could have CSLs and Range levels.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

I don't think a bow is a NPA. Arrows just aren't very useful without one.

 

EDIT: Although a bow could have CSLs and Range levels.

 

The premise comes from Fantasy HERO, where it says, simply, "rather than trying to put together Armor Piercing Arrows and modeling that, you can build the bow as an NPA and the arrows as HKAs, thus putting the two together to create one end result." I didn't come up with this on my own, it's in the text; the text just critically fails to provide an example.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

I don't think a bow is a NPA. Arrows just aren't very useful without one.

 

You can stab with an arrow. Not ideal, especially IRL, but it's not totally useless without a bow.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Much easier way...

 

Buy RKA (plus any other powers in a Multipower if you're using any other arrows besides normal arrows). Take "OAF Arrows (-1)."

 

Then apply Limited Power limitation, "No range unless used in combination with a bow (-1/4)." If that Limitation wouldn't be applicable to some of the powers, change the wording to something like "Restricted utility when used without a bow; ranged powers have no range, other powers don't work at all (-1/4)."

 

For example, from my Pulp Champions character The Huntsman...

 

20 Arrows: Multipower, 45-point reserve, all slots OAF (-1), Limited Utility Unless Used In Combination With A Bow (attack powers have no range without a bow, other powers don't work at all without a bow; -1/4) [Notes: All Multipower slots draw END from "Quiver" END Reserve (SFX: 4 END represents a single arrow). The first seven slots all represent different kinds of "shots" he makes with his pointed-head arrows. The eighth and ninth slots represent shots made with his blunt-head arrows. The tenth to thirteenth slots represent tricks and uses that can normally be performed with either arrow type. See the Powers & Tactics description for more info.]

2u 1) Powerful Shot: Killing Attack - Ranged 3d6; Beam (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4) - END=4

2u 2) Targeting Weak Points: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6, Armor Piercing (+1/2); Beam (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4) - END=4

2u 3) Rapid Fire: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6+1, Autofire (3 shots; +1/4); Beam (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4) - END=4

2u 4) Targeting Sensitive Areas: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6, +2 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/2); Beam (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4) - END=4

2u 5) Distance Shot: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6, No Range Modifier (+1/2); Beam (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4) - END=4

2u 6) Gotta Make This One Count! (Pointed-Head): Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6, Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2); Beam (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4) - END=4

2u 7) Hobble: Drain Running 3d6, Ranged (+1/2); Beam (-1/4), Limited Special Effect (normal running only; -1/4) - END=4

1u 8) Pincushion: Entangle 3d6, 4 DEF, Entangle And Character Both Take Damage (+1/4); Must Be Able To Pin The Target To Something (-1/2), Cannot Form Barriers (-1/4) - END=4

2u 9) Blunt-Head Arrow: Energy Blast vs PD 9d6; Beam (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4) - END=4

2u 10) Gotta Make This One Count! (Blunt-Head): Energy Blast vs. PD 6d6, Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2); Beam (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4) - END=4

1u 11) Gun Jamming: Dispel Ranged Killing Attack 15d6; Only vs. Single-Barreled Firearms (-1/2), Beam (-1/4) - END=4

1u 12) Miscellaneous Trick Shots: Telekinesis (20 STR), Fine Manipulation; Limited Applicability (-1/2) - END=4

1u 13) Shooting Missiles Out Of The Air: Missile Deflection (Arrows, Slings, Etc.), Missile Reflection, Full Range (+1); Costs Endurance (-1/2) - END=4

1u 14) Shatter Eyewear Gadgetry: Dispel 5d6, any Eyewear Gadgetry power one at a time (+1/4); Beam (-1/4) plus Entangle 1d6, 1 DEF (Stops A Given Sense Group: Sight Group), Takes No Damage From Attacks Whose SFX Don't Include Striking The Head (+1/4); Does Not Prevent The Use Of Accessible Foci (-1), Set Effect (Eyes Only) (-1), No Effect Unless Dispel Succeeds (-1/2), Cannot Form Barriers (-1/4) - END=4

1u 15) Throw A Line: Swinging 25"; Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2) - END=4

 

Powers & Tactics: The Huntsman uses phenomenal archery skill to stop evil. He carries two types of arrows, pointed-head (RKA) and blunt-head (Energy Blast vs. PD), and also uses these to perform several amazing stunts of archery. He uses the pointed-head arrows to target sensitive areas (+2 STUNx), target weak spots in defenses (Armor-Piercing), fire quickly (Autofire up to 3), make extremely steady long-distance shots (No Range Modifier), or simply let fly with as much power as possible (straight RKA). He also uses the pointy arrows to hobble opponents (Drain vs. Running) or pin them to walls, fences, etc., usually by their clothing (Entangle). He uses his blunt-head arrows to "plug" gun muzzles with great force, usually requiring the gun to be repaired before it can be used again.

 

Other impressive archery feats (which can usually be done with either kind of arrow) include various kinds of trick shots like knocking weapons from people's grips, pushing buttons, closing doors, and so on (Telekinesis), shooting incoming missiles out of the air -- or even rebounding them back to their origin (Missile Deflection/Reflection vs. grenades, other arrows, thrown objects, etc.), and using an opponent's own eyewear against them (he shatters their goggles, glasses, visors, etc., destroying their eyewear and obscuring their vision in the process; Dispel vs Eyewear Gadgetry, plus Entangle, Stops Sight, only if Dispel succeeds).

 

The Huntsman carries 20 arrows (each of his "arrow" powers costs 4 END, and the arrows are represented by an END Reserve with 80 END). Out of combat, and assuming conditions permit, he can gather up his arrows for re-use or replace them (END Reserve REC). For dramatic purposes, it isn't defined in advance exactly how many of his arrows are pointed-head and how many are blunt-head; it's left for the GM to adjudicate if he needs to "run out" of one type or the other for plot purposes. Otherwise, it's assumed (in grand comic book style) that as long as he has arrows left, he "just happens" to still have one of the kind he wants at the moment.

[Ocelot]

Derek, while your example is excellent, it doesn't quite offer much in the way of Heroic campaigns, as I see it.

 

I'm stuck on this as well, as the campaign I'm polishing involves both arrows and bows with magical effects in various amounts. You might have a bow that makes the arrows Affects Desolid, and another bow that makes the arrows Indirect, and then have a Fire Arrow (Uncontrolled Damage), a Frost Arrow (Drain DEX and SPD), and an Armor Piercing Arrow.

 

Then add in that I have lots of arrows that don't do any actual damage, and I think Thia asked a really good question. How do you do this without a multipower, since a character might want to add more arrows on the fly?

[pawsplay]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

You can stab with an arrow. Not ideal' date=' especially IRL, but it's not totally useless without a bow.[/quote']

 

True. So now you apply Side Effects (-2 to hit without a bow) to the arrows, then give the bow a NPA to buy off the Side Effects with each arrow. Simplicity itself.

 

Still not seeing the point.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Thia... I love the work you do. Truly. I talk with one of my fellow roleplayers about you, upon occasion. You are an amazing contributor.

 

But at times like this... when your energies get directed at something like this... Well, that is when I know that genius and insanity are hard to distinguish, because I can't tell which it is.

 

Also, someone needs to build you a beautiful femme-bot to..divert...you when you begin to focus your attentions so.

[Ocelot]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Also' date=' someone needs to build you a beautiful femme-bot to..divert...you when you begin to focus your attentions so.[/quote']

 

Her name is Cortana.

[eternal_sage]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Lol!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Derek, while you're example is excellent, it doesn't quite offer much in the way of Heroic campaigns, as I see it.

 

I'm stuck on this as well, as the campaign I'm polishing involves both arrows and bows with magical effects in various amounts. You might have a bow that makes the arrows Affects Desolid, and another bow that makes the arrows Indirect, and then have a Fire Arrow (Uncontrolled Damage), a Frost Arrow (Drain DEX and SPD), and an Armor Piercing Arrow.

 

Then add in that I have lots of arrows that don't do any actual damage, and I think Thia asked a really good question. How do you do this without a multipower, since a character might want to add more arrows on the fly?

 

To the first, it sounds like those bows have some extra naked power advantages to apply to arrows.

 

To the second, a VPP is one choice for modelling this. I'm assuming, of course, that the arrows are not equipment (purchased with money rather than points), which would eliminate any issues of adding arrows on the fly.

 

What model do you use for wizards adding spells, rogues adding stealth feats or warriors adding weapon tricks on the fly?

[eternal_sage]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

personally, i think you've got your wires crossed. in my mind, the whole "Bow is RKA w/ 20 Charges(Arrows)" thing is nice, simple, and generally efficient. i think what you want are Naked Power Advantages to model the different arrows (NPA AP, for example) or in the case of Flame or Holy arrows, you want a energy blast which is linked (2d6 EB (Fire), Linked to Longbow, etc). also, if you wanted to model the arrows being able to be used HTH, then make each bow a multipower, one slot for arrow chucking, the other a smalled HKA. just put the charges on the whole Multipower, since you'll use up your arrows stabbing them into others major organs in alphabetical order (rep for anyone who gets te reference), i think it all works out in the wash.

 

you are thinking of things in the Human, real world, physics make sense way. thats not the way HERO works. in HERO you have to decide what you want effect wise, then go backwards to get the proper build, which has nothing to do with real physics! its like Inverse Kinematics (for you 3d animation guys) the body doesn't work that way at all (the foot leading the leg) but its the only way to get walkcycles that look right.

 

of course, you could do what i did for my Oriental Campaign Setting, and just have the refill quivers built as full RKA bows that just cost the price of a quiver. it gives you the charges you want, and a bow that only exists if you think about it... (since my players don't see the weapons writeups, it didn't really matter. they don't know that they are getting a free bow with each sen's worth of arrows they purchase!)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

To the first, it sounds like those bows have some extra naked power advantages to apply to arrows.

 

To the second, a VPP is one choice for modelling this. I'm assuming, of course, that the arrows are not equipment (purchased with money rather than points), which would eliminate any issues of adding arrows on the fly.

 

What model do you use for wizards adding spells, rogues adding stealth feats or warriors adding weapon tricks on the fly?

 

If the characters aren't paying points for the equipment then the ONLY reason to worry about points is with regards to Adjustment powers (like Dispel and Suppress) which only care about Active Points anyway. Any framework is just one way of defining how the various components work 'in game'.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

since you'll use up your arrows stabbing them into others major organs in alphabetical order (rep for anyone who gets te reference)

 

The Crow

[Sean Waters]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Here's how I'd do it:

 

Arrows: 2d6 HKA OAF, 8 Recoverable Charges: 15 points

 

So you can pick up an arrow and just stab someone with it. Cool.

 

Next the bow:

 

Bow: Naked power Advantage: Ranged for 60 active points: 30 points. OAF Only useable with arrows (-0) for 15 points

 

So, you can shoot an arrow at range using the bow. Note this does cost 3 END (for the NPA) even with charges on the arrows. You can also add strength to the damage because it is a HKA, so the stronger you are (up to a point) the more you can pull the bow back and the harder the arrows hit, that's why the NPA is for 60 AP. Not sure if that is strictly necessary and you might get away with a 30 AP one, but I'm playing safe.

 

Instead of a single arrow type you could build various arrows in a MP, if you wanted.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

1) Arrows: Damage + Bows: SFX or Multiple Foci (1 Arrow + 1 Bow)

 

2) Does it matter?

[eternal_sage]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

that actually looks pretty good, Mr. Waters (just imagine me saying it like Hugo Weaving, for ultimate effect), except i think that they should definately do more damage as a projectile than as a makeshift shiv. and i'm not sure how you could manage that with your build. but i otherwise really like the idea.

 

oh, how about this! ok, like Sean said above, but make the Arrows 1/2 HKA, RBS. Then make the bow +20 STR (only to throw arrows and do damage, -1/4) which will make the whole thing at range do 2d6 HKA (plus any other STR to add into it) and since Arrows are really light (according to Ultimate Brick) you should have at least +75 STR for launching the beast (not including STR over 10) giving you approximately a 30" range on the shot (standing shot) or 60" if you want to call it a running shot. toss a dab of Increased Maximum Range (-1/4) on, and it can be anywhere up to 300"

 

8 Arrows: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1/2d6 (vs. PD), 20 Charges (+0), Range Based On STR (+1/4), Increased Maximum Range ("Your Desired Maximum Range Here", Only When Used With a Bow; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (20 Active Points); OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4), Beam (-1/4) [20]

 

9 Bow: +20 STR, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (30 Active Points); OAF (-1), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Only To Throw Arrows and Add To Their Damage (-1/4)

[eternal_sage]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

g-a: obviously it does to him, or he wouldn't be asking. he wants something that more accurately describes the mechanisms by which the world works in his game. its his game, his perrogative. not everyone is satisfied with the "traditional" or "official" answer. personally, i like the traditional way, but this gets my HERO gears turning, and thats always a good thing.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

It was formed as a question - hence pending an answer as to what end it matters?