Charges absurdity

[astralfrontier]

Power Description: Force screens somewhat resembling those from "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series. Starships are equipped with three or four courses of defensive screens. Once a screen is penetrated, it goes away, and cannot easily or immediately be restored. But until that time, it holds up, and provides completely effective coverage.

 

To simulate this, I started out with Force Wall. To keep things simple, I looked at Charges. A ship can only have 3 or 4 screens active, at maximum; so I assign Charges to the power, 3 per day. Since the ship is expected to be able to function for extended periods of combat with its screens up, I gave it Continuing Charges (1 day). And since repairs could be effected to restore screen coverage in less than a day, I made the Charges recoverable.

 

Net modifier? +1 1/4.

 

This is asinine. I know a lot of people will say "but but but you should make a custom Limitation then!" Why, when Charges describes exactly what the situation is? No more than 3-4 at a time; recoverable, but not immediately.

 

I would like to get opinions on this house-rule:

 

When constructing a power with Charges, any factor that causes you to "move up or down the table" N places instead adds N effective charges (when moving down) or subtracts N (when moving up). Thus, a power with 2 Charges, moved down 5 places (by being Continuing, for example) is bought as a power with 7 Charges, NOT as a power with 9-12 Charges. The difference in this example is only -1/4. As an optional addendum, this house-rule only applies to powers with (say) 12 total Charges or less, or even a smaller number.

 

In the example this post describes above, the difference is dramatic, compared to what "conventional" Charges would cost me, and it is very much in line with the cost I would be paying if the power had some custom Limitation. It preserves the notion that a Force Wall which can be breeched and not easily restored is worth less points than one you can restore on any of your actions.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I'm not familiar with the source material. However, could these screens be turned on, turned off without their being damaged, and then turned back on again? If so, then it's not Charges. Perhaps END Reserve with a Limitation like "END drops to zero if screens are breached" and a low REC.

[Ndreare]

I would think the Force Screens from "Lensmen" would best be done by making a powerful FORCE WALL with the Alblative limitation so that once an attack penetrates it will fail. Then use the gagit rule saying extra forcewalls can be bought for 5 points and you are good to go.

[TaxiMan]

For a Doc Smith campaign, the Force Walls need names. Then attacks (RKA) can be bought NND, where only a certain type of Force Wall (or better) can stop it.

 

That way the hideous heterodyned n-space sub etheric plasma beam can bite and grip the full spectrum 7th dimensional shield backed by screaming 50 tera-terawatt generators eating 100 lbs of copper per second - but it will never fall. HOWEVER, the blast of pure, solid force emanating from the combined willpower of all Lensmen in the First Galaxy backed by the weight of the Elders of Arisia can rip through it like tissue paper.

 

Or, you can just have 5/50/500/5000 d6 RKAs.

 

[Note: the example description above is nowhere near worthy of Doc Smith's prose.]

[astralfrontier]

Originally posted by Ndreare

I would think the Force Screens from "Lensmen" would best be done by making a powerful FORCE WALL with the Alblative limitation so that once an attack penetrates it will fail. Then use the gagit rule saying extra forcewalls can be bought for 5 points and you are good to go.

 

Ablative comes close. If I had a canon way to say "the ablative activation number jumps immediately to 'gone'", I might be happier with this. I'd also be happier if I could see a way through Ablative working well here - either it applies only to a single instance of a Force Wall (in which case, I can simply push up another one when it falls) or to all Force Walls in operation at once (which is of course nowhere near the effect I want). There is always the possibility of that tacit "gentleman's agreement" that "this is how this power works for this vehicle/situation/etc." but that still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[Hugh Neilson]

While the Force Wall is up, can you leave the vehicle? If not, all I need to do is create a few reasons for you to leave the vehicle and voila - you have no more defenses for the rest of the day.

[Chris Goodwin]

If you can turn them off and back on again, consider Fuel Charges.

[Lord Liaden]

I read quite a lot of Doc Smith fiction in my youth (Einstein's theory limiting velocity to the speed of light is just a theory, you know). One thing to remember in those space battles between ships is that the beams they used were continuous attacks, staying locked on their target until either the target's defenses fell and it was destroyed, or the beam was terminated. While I'm not aware of any specific ruling on this, it seems reasonable to me that a Force Wall could not be reformed while a ravening stream of energy is still passing through the space it normally occupies.

[Farkling]

I think I actually read ALL of "Doc" Smith's fiction in my misspent youth. I will need to ponder this, but I think that the answer is less complicated than it.

 

I just can't put my finger on it at the moment.

[Farkling]

I don't have access to the books any longer...but I seem to recall that when the screens went down, they required repairs or replacements to the generators...

 

So, charges is not really the way to go in that case. Drawing from the ships END reserves definitely encompasses the "millions of tons of copper were vaporized as the awesome energies chewed through the interdimensional barriers encompassing Skylark Four"

 

So, perhaps the screens are simply Force Walls with an extended start up time? Or a "force field engineering" skill roll is necessary to erect them? or both? A limitation of "requires repair rolls before activation" even leaves the possibility of firing them back up in combat, if Richard can get down to the engine room and hotwire the generators.

 

Tres' dramatique.

 

All the rest is special effects. And leaves the penalties to the rolls/activations in the hands of the dramatic gamemaster.

 

What do you think? Admittedly, this is a ROUGH idea...

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Farkling

I don't have access to the books any longer...but I seem to recall that when the screens went down, they required repairs or replacements to the generators...

 

So, charges is not really the way to go in that case.

 

Why not? Make them Recoverable Charges and set up the recovery condition as "repair the generator".

[GamePhil]

Re: Charges absurdity

 

Originally posted by memesis

I know a lot of people will say "but but but you should make a custom Limitation then!"

 

"People" might, but I certainly wouldn't. Fortunately, it doesn't seem to have come up so far.

 

The trouble is that Charges are roughly balanced for other things: changing them because they don't work here would break them there. That, and it doesn't sound like the fields are on Charges so much as the ship can project multiple fields at the same time, which is not necessarily the same thing.

 

Why, when Charges describes exactly what the situation is? No more than 3-4 at a time; recoverable, but not immediately.

 

I'm not entirely convinced that this is Charges, and in fact probably wouldn't do it as Force Wall, depending on certain things.

 

Force Wall is not necessary for its wall-like properties: any defense you give a Vehicle is going to have this, anyway, so Force Field may be perfectly usable. Also, Force Wall doesn't normally move with the target, and getting it to completely surround the ship (if they do in the books) is hard (you can Megascale them, though).

 

If all of the screens completely encircle the ship, giving layered defense, here's a possibility:

 

+x PD +x ED Force Field, 0 END, OIF: Shield Generator, x4 Generators

 

This could be done by either taking the "multiple equipment" rule for +10 points, or by buying 4 of them the hard way. If the former, I wouldn't allow them to stack defenses, but each time Body penetrated the Force Field it would destroy the associated Generator, which would then have to be repared. If it was done the hard way, then they would stack, which makes things complicated enough to use an example.

 

Each one is 5 Defense. They get hit for 7 Body, which gets through the first one (destroying its generator) but not the second. Then the remaining 3 get hit for 12 Body, destroying two generators, leaving one. I might allow some extra Limitation because this isn't as effective as just having a 20 Defense Force Field, possibly some form of Linked (each of the outer ones is Linked to the next one in line).

 

Some further reminders of how they work in the books, perhaps a quoted passage, might be helpful.

[astralfrontier]

Re: Re: Charges absurdity

 

Originally posted by GamePhil

(snip)

 

+x PD +x ED Force Field, 0 END, OIF: Shield Generator, x4 Generators

 

This could be done by either taking the "multiple equipment" rule for +10 points, or by buying 4 of them the hard way. If the former, I wouldn't allow them to stack defenses, but each time Body penetrated the Force Field it would destroy the associated Generator, which would then have to be repared. If it was done the hard way, then they would stack, which makes things complicated enough to use an example.

 

Each one is 5 Defense. They get hit for 7 Body, which gets through the first one (destroying its generator) but not the second. Then the remaining 3 get hit for 12 Body, destroying two generators, leaving one. I might allow some extra Limitation because this isn't as effective as just having a 20 Defense Force Field, possibly some form of Linked (each of the outer ones is Linked to the next one in line).

 

Some further reminders of how they work in the books, perhaps a quoted passage, might be helpful. [/b]

 

This is probably going to be the most playable final solution, with a strict reading of the "all Foci are outside the defenses they don't provide" rule. It's certainly an improvement over suggestions like Extra Time (but then what about when the screens are snapped on initially?) and so forth. It's also only applicable to vehicles (which don't take STUN), but since personal force-screens are handled differently I'm fine with that.

 

Thank you very much for the feedback, everybody.

[Killer Shrike]

Ahem. Well, I hesitate to suggest this since the matter seems to have been resolved, but you might also consider simply buying visible extra BODY via IAF Generators, with an END Reserve for the "Copper" or whatever, and a Heal Self Force Field BODY RSR: Mechanics RSR: Field Tech.

Cost Power END 10 Field Generator I: +10 BODY (20 Active Points); IAF (-1/2), Visible (-1/4), Costs Endurance Only Costs END to Activate (-1/4) (uses END Reserve) 2 10 Field Generator II: +10 BODY (20 Active Points); IAF (-1/2), Visible (-1/4), Costs Endurance Only Costs END to Activate (-1/4) (uses END Reserve) 2 10 Field Generator III: +10 BODY (20 Active Points); IAF (-1/2), Visible (-1/4), Costs Endurance Only Costs END to Activate (-1/4) (uses END Reserve) 2 10 Field Generator IV: +10 BODY (20 Active Points); IAF (-1/2), Visible (-1/4), Costs Endurance Only Costs END to Activate (-1/4) (uses END Reserve) 2 27 Copper Reserves: Endurance Reserve (200 END, 25 REC) Reserve: (45 Active Points) REC: (25 Active Points); Requires 1 ton of copper per 1 REC (-2), Slow Recovery 1 Minute (-1/2) 27 Repairing the Field Generators: Healing (BODY) 4d6 (max. Healed Points: 24), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2) (60 Active Points); Self Only (-1/2), Requires A Appropriate Repair Skill Roll And A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/2), Force Screens Only Very Common SFX (-1/4) Powers Cost: 94

[GamePhil]

Ideas often come from re-examination. Hopefully it won't cause confusion, though.

 

This means that the vehicle's Defense becomes the threshold that must be overcome in order to damage the shield, it doesn't provide Defense of its own. There is nothing wrong with that unless the shields are harder to damage than the hull. In that case, a bit of extra Defense, Linked to each portion of Body, might be suitable: when the Body score is depleted, the extra Defense drops, too.

 

This does tend to cause a cascade effect, though.

[Farkling]

I'm fond of the multiple force field variant myself.

 

In keeping with Doc's literature, you could even list them as

7th Order Screen, +x PD/+y ED, does not block 8th order or higher attacks (-1/4 ?). Come to think of it, x would be zero, as I recall the upper order attacks were all energy attacks of some kind. I think only the 1st Order screen was a meteorite shield.

 

Where is Dr. Danger? He practically memorized those Space operas?

[Old Man]

I like Killer Shrike's idea.

 

Using Barrier Entagles would work too.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by GamePhil

Ideas often come from re-examination. Hopefully it won't cause confusion, though.

 

This means that the vehicle's Defense becomes the threshold that must be overcome in order to damage the shield, it doesn't provide Defense of its own. There is nothing wrong with that unless the shields are harder to damage than the hull. In that case, a bit of extra Defense, Linked to each portion of Body, might be suitable: when the Body score is depleted, the extra Defense drops, too.

 

This does tend to cause a cascade effect, though.

Hmm....I was thinking that the BODY in this case would be considered effectively a Defense, and thus the Generators would in effect be "outside" of the hull for purposes of destroying them bcs in the description it sounded like taking the shields down literally destroyed the generators (thus IAF -- you cant see the actual generators per se in this case, but you can wreck them -- in retrospect Bulky would be appropriate as well, if not Immovable) . Thus, going thru the shields you could either attack the ship, in which case it would have all this extra BODY to feed to the attack, which would also likely destroy the Generators (since they are FOCI with only 1 power, they are considered "outside" the defenses of the hull, and they almost certainly had thier own DEF exceeded), or you could deliberately target the fields directly and burn them off to the same effect, taking longer in the process if you really felt like it.

 

But I dont know, I didnt put a ton of though into it, and I couldnt get past the early parts of the Lensman series. It was way to over the top and absolutist for my taste. A omniverse of immovable objects and unstoppable forces, with no reasonable baselines in sight or any attempt at internal versimilitude -- everything was arbitrary and plot driven -- whatever needed to happen just happened. Too Contrived and absurdist for my tastes. Clearly other people disagree