Are Heroic Characteristics Realistic?

[Akiva]

Some of you may be happy to know that we've had two HERO sessions so far. Some of you may be amused to know that those two sessions have been nothing but character creation; we've yet to throw a Skill Roll. Some of you may nod knowingly when I tell you that this isn't a problem: we've enjoyed sitting around, hacking character builds, discussing rules, and so forth. My guess is that this is typical for HERO neophytes and that enjoying the system without actually playing the system is probably a good sign. Plus, at the table this past session, one of my players ordered the 5er, Dark Champions, and the Ultimate Skill. That'll ease wear-and-tear on my copies at least (my 5er has already taken a nasty spill and earned a crumpled corner in the bargain).

 

One of my players, fresh from years slogging through MMORPGs, has taken an approach toward his character which is probably indicative of the illness that non-stop MMO playing will do to a person. His first character build had his STR, DEX, and CON maxed at 20. He'd have put them higher if the Normal Character Maxima didn't kick in. At first, I didn't think anything of it until I read what it means to have a 20 STR. From my understanding, you'd be stronger than Arnold Schwarzenegger at the height of his Mr. Universe days. That's frickin' huge. You can carry nearly 900 pounds a few,m staggering steps. Strong like woah, right? That, to me, seems way too strong for a realistic heroic campaign. After doing some calculations, to me, anything above 13-14 in some Characteristics starts straining credibility.

 

My question is: as the rules are written, for a Heroic campaign, it's perfectly acceptable for a character to have a STR of 20 which means he, if I'm understanding this right, can pick up and throw a refrigerator 4 meters or around 13'. This, to me, does not sound right at all. I mean, sure, maybe someone with a 20 STR can do those things but in a realistic campaign, that just seems highly excessive.

 

One obvious fix is to move the Normal Character Maxima to 14 or 15, something which has been discussed here many times before. Another idea is to scale it so that the costs double at, say, 15 then double again at 20, and so forth. How do other people handle campaigns which are more realistic than they are Heroic?

 

Luckily, the only reason why my player wanted those high stats was because of how they effected Figured Characteristics (and, no, this is not meant to be that discussion). I was able to show him how he could get most of those Figured Characteristics by spending CPs directly on them rather than by pumping up his Characteristics to ridiculous levels. Not only did he get everything he wanted but he ended up saving quite a bit on CPs which he then used to buy up a bunch of skills, which I liked.

 

Personally, in a future edition, I wouldn't mind seeing HERO divided into Realistic, Heroic, and Superheroic levels.

[CTaylor]

Re: Are Heroic Characteristics Realistic?

 

There are human beings in the world that can lift and move with that kind of weight, a few staggering steps. The 20 is theoretical human maximum, outside of being just extrahuman or supernatural. It costs a lot to just get the points that high: if you find characters pushing that max too often and with too many stats, chances are you're giving them too many points or not restricting what they spend on enough.

 

I've in the past given points for the character to spend on anything (less than normal campaigns) then more points for things like background skills (KS, PS, languages, etc). It tends to force characters to be more well-rounded and have more room to grow.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Are Heroic Characteristics Realistic?

 

Answer: I set my thresholds at 15, and then any player can pick two stats to go over that (including CON & BODY, although I should've disallowed BODY I didn't; 20 BODY is just bananas). Because, like you, I decided that NCM 20 is just too high; while it appeals to the d20 gamer in me because the levels are 'comfortable' HERO isn't really all that stat driven. Other than DEX. But we won't go into that, because it makes Thia very, very bitter. But I agree, with the amendment it doesn't need to be 'realistic' and 'heroic.' Realistic is, IMO, a subset of heroic. If Heroic is explained properly, then Realistic comes along with it.

[jtelson]

Re: Are Heroic Characteristics Realistic?

 

Answer: I set my thresholds at 15' date=' and then any player can pick two stats to go over that (including CON & BODY, although I should've disallowed BODY I didn't; 20 BODY is just bananas). Because, like you, I decided that NCM 20 is just too high; while it appeals to the d20 gamer in me because the levels are 'comfortable' HERO isn't really all that stat driven. Other than DEX. But we won't go into that, because it makes Thia very, very [i']bitter[/i]. But I agree, with the amendment it doesn't need to be 'realistic' and 'heroic.' Realistic is, IMO, a subset of heroic. If Heroic is explained properly, then Realistic comes along with it.

 

I really have to try this;

 

I have a few questions out of curiousity

How often do your players select DEX as their over 15 stat?

How often do they buy a 3rd stat at the 2x multipier (or is 15 a hard cap)?

Can the over 15 stats be bought over 20 as well and if so how often does it happen?

[JmOz]

Re: Are Heroic Characteristics Realistic?

 

First off, I am a BIG FAN of changing costs to reflect your game

 

I would recomend the following for a "Realistic" game

 

25+25 point characters

 

set up 3 NCM's, the first one caping at 15, the second one capping at either 20 or 25, the third at 30

 

Over NCM 1 is x2

Over NCM 2 is either x3 or x4

Over NCM 3 is not allowed at all (I call this one HCM, and have it set at 30 in my champions games for primary characteristics)

 

also str 20 would be 800 lbs for a couple inches, I agree huge but not unheard of in fiction

[JmOz]

Re: Are Heroic Characteristics Realistic?

 

I also have to disagree with Thia about realistic being a subset of heroic, when I think of realistic fiction I think of much more mortal characters than I do when I think of Heroic

[pawsplay]

Re: Are Heroic Characteristics Realistic?

 

I was able to show him how he could get most of those Figured Characteristics by spending CPs directly on them rather than by pumping up his Characteristics to ridiculous levels.

 

Really? Because usually it works the other way. Your PC must have an unusual spread of abilities.

 

Each point of STR is worth:

.2 PD (0.2 points)

.2 REC (0.4 points)

.5 STUN (0.5 points)

 

so it's worth 1.1 just for figured characters, before you even consider encumbrance and damage. And STR already pays for itself just in terms of damage.

 

Each point of DEX is worth:

.1 SPD (1 point)

.33 of one CSL with any combat (2.67 points)

.33 of one CSL DCV only (1.67 points)

one point of Lightning Reflexes (1 point)

 

Each point of CON is worth:

.2 ED (0.2 points)

.2 REC (0.4 points)

2 END (1 point)

0.5 STUN (0.5)

 

or 2.1 points, just in figured characteristics.

[Akiva]

Re: Are Heroic Characteristics Realistic?

 

I like these suggestions mainly because I was already thinking along similar lines and it's better for everyone when you support whatever I think.

 

I do worry about 25+25, though. My players have had difficulty getting as many skills as they want in their initial character build. That one player's issue was obvious: he dumped most of his points into his Characteristics. But, overall, they've kind of complained that they felt that they didn't have enough points to make their characters as well rounded with skills as they'd like. For example, they really like the idea of taking complimentary KSs for almost all of the skills which are primary for their character concepts (e.g., the hacker takes Computer Programming as well as KS: Computers). I fear that if I throw 25+25 (or even 50+50) at them, they'll just take me out back and shoot me.

 

On the other hand, I was thinking about setting spending limits for Characteristics. Not sure what that limit would be quite yet but some delimiter that would prevent them from burning so many CPs that they have hardly any left for skills or, say, in a Fantasy HERO game, powers/spells.

 

At any rate, I understand what HERO's doing with Characteristics even with regards to Normal Characteristic Maxima and for some Heroic campaigns, 20 STR characters running around throwing refrigerators at each other might make sense. I also agree that it's a player problem rather than a system problem if they always want to drop most of their CPs into Characteristics. On the other hand, I don't like simply saying, 'No,' when the rules clearly say, 'Yes,' and this is mainly because it tends to create an adversarial relationship between the GM and players especially when they don't know the system as well as the GM does; to them, it looks like the GM is arbitrarily trying to 'curb their fun', as it were.

 

However, that one player has submitted a new character build (gotta love HERO Designer) along with an e-mail explaining that he was beginning to see why it wasn't good to sacrifice skills to pump up Characteristics. It was starting to dawn on him how one-dimensional his character build was: it was all combat and nothing else. So, in a sense, the issue is sort of resolving itself.

 

I still sometimes want to strangle HERO but not nearly as much as before.

[Comic]

Re: Are Heroic Characteristics Realistic?

 

At a gaming convention long ago, a GM had a novel idea: build characters with your characteristics. There was a wiseacre who came along to kibbitz, dubious of the STR stat yours truly listed. I'd just come off a summer working as a grave digger, which involved a significant amount of physical labor, and had little difficulty walking around with two players on my back and another hanging off of either arm, in those days... (which is far more physical contact than I recommend with gaming convention attendees).. And I was far from the strongest guy I knew, back then.

 

Having seen the routine heavy lifting farm workers can do, I see nothing out of line with 20 STR as a normal maximum.

 

There really is no objective measure for determining whether a person is at 20 DEX, or below with skill levels and circumstance modifiers, or even above.. but I've seen people with aim that hits far more often than 62.5%, or even 99.5%, which indicates 20 isn't an unreasonable figure for DEX as an NCM.

 

There's a similar problem with justifying the scale for CON, but given that there are people who pass out after a few seconds of physical effort, and people who can literally run all day, I see nothing wrong with 20 CON as NCM.

 

Having read accounts of injuries people have lived through and recovered from, I have to believe 20 BODY is about right for NCM.

 

The game is a model, not a precise measure.

 

Our personal experiences shape our perceptions, but there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of, y'know?

[Akiva]

Re: Are Heroic Characteristics Realistic?

 

pawsplay, maybe I'm misunderstanding something in the rules. My player had turned in an initial build with DEX and STR of 20. The portion of the e-mail I wrote back to him explaining a better way to build the character he wanted follows:

 

Also, remember, you can buy up Figured Characteristics with CPs, too.

For example, you could drop your DEX from 20 to 10, which cost you 30

CPs to begin with, and then pump 10 CPs to get back that extra point

of SPD that you lost. Your character will still be wicked fast in a

fight but won't have a preternatural amount of DEX. When it comes to

STR, dropping from 20 to, say, 12, will halve your Normal HTH Damage

from 4D6 to 2D6. Ouch, right? But, no! That's where Combat Skill

Levels come in. Drop your STR to 12 and buy two 3-point CSLs instead.

This saves you 2 CPs. You can then combine the CSLs to increase your

HTH damage one Damage Class (in this case up to 3D6 which is still

really, really bad ass). The CSLs are more useful anyway because you

can use them to either increase your Damage, your OCV, or your DCV.

The 20 STR will just allow you to pick up a grizzly bear.

 

To summarize, in your current build, you spent 40 CPs to get STR and

DEX to 20 (STR: 10 x 1; DEX: 10 x 3). If you do what I suggest

above, you'll only have spent 18 (STR: 2 x 1; SPD: 1 x 10; 2 CSLs: 2

x 3). Now you've got 18 CPs to pump into more skills, more SLs, more

CSLs, Perks, etc. Spend 6 of those CPs and you've maxed out your PD,

too, still leaving 12 CPs for other stuff.

 

Am I off? Sure, a 20 STR gets you more than what I provided with what I wrote above but his concern was primarily damage, PD, SPD, and STUN.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Are Heroic Characteristics Realistic?

 

On the other hand' date=' I don't like simply saying, 'No,' when the rules clearly say, 'Yes,' and this is mainly because it tends to create an adversarial relationship between the GM and players especially when they don't know the system as well as the GM does; to them, it looks like the GM is arbitrarily trying to 'curb their fun', as it were.[/quote']

 

You will have this kind of problem with Hero until you get to grips with the fact that it is what it says on the tin, a toolkit.

 

Hero is not a system that is ideally suited to playing straight out of the box. The GM has to take quite a bit of responsibility for setting the creation scene as it were. The GM needs to do a bit of upfront work to decide exactly what kind of HERO game that they want to play and then set that scene for the players so that they know what will and will not be acceptable character builds for that particular game.

 

If you do not do it upfront then you get to that point where you want to say no but feel that it will create the adversarial feeling.

 

If you give a quick resume of the feel that you are looking for and the restrictions that you are placing to achieve that feel then most players are fine with whatever limits you decide on - though there will always be the pushing at the boundaries that any good player will do to achieve a spectacular character concept!

 

Straight out of the box, Hero delivers a game where the PCs are slightly above run of the mill. They are built to be heroes and so have abilities set to deliver that role.

 

With some judicious tweaks you can play a very realistic game.

 

 

Doc

[JmOz]

Re: Are Heroic Characteristics Realistic?

 

REgarding skills, remind them that they have a number of everyman skills, that should help somewhat

 

Also, and this to me is important, you said you wanted to run a "realistic" game, very few people in the real world are uber competent, the more points you give, the less realistic and more heroic the game gets, nothing wrong with that, but it does get away from realistic

[JmOz]

Re: Are Heroic Characteristics Realistic?

 

You will have this kind of problem with Hero until you get to grips with the fact that it is what it says on the tin, a toolkit.

 

Hero is not a system that is ideally suited to playing straight out of the box. The GM has to take quite a bit of responsibility for setting the creation scene as it were. The GM needs to do a bit of upfront work to decide exactly what kind of HERO game that they want to play and then set that scene for the players so that they know what will and will not be acceptable character builds for that particular game.

 

If you do not do it upfront then you get to that point where you want to say no but feel that it will create the adversarial feeling.

 

If you give a quick resume of the feel that you are looking for and the restrictions that you are placing to achieve that feel then most players are fine with whatever limits you decide on - though there will always be the pushing at the boundaries that any good player will do to achieve a spectacular character concept!

 

Straight out of the box, Hero delivers a game where the PCs are slightly above run of the mill. They are built to be heroes and so have abilities set to deliver that role.

 

With some judicious tweaks you can play a very realistic game.

 

 

Doc

 

 

I so agree with you

[Akiva]

I've always been a GM who runs very low-powered, realistic, and gritty campaigns. HERO, in many obvious ways, is designed toward more cinematic styles. Although I know that I will never, ever graduate to running Superheroes (yuck!), I do hope that HERO will help me break out of my instinctive urge to pretty much oppress the characters as much as possible. Right now, a 20 STR sounds ridiculous to the point of being offensive but that probably has more to do with me than with the system. When I think of a 20 STR, I see one of those guys who are so muscle-bound that they can't put their arms down or achieve any kind of meaningful erection. It's all a matter of perception, really.

 

Also, as for putting my foot down when it comes to things in-game, I have no problems doing that but I like to provide reasons other than 'Because I said so'. It took awhile for me to convince my players that Characteristics of 20 were really too much, at least for this campaign, but I did. If I had simply said, 'Nope,' I doubt I would've gotten anything other than disgruntled players. Also, it's something I don't like to do until I am more familiar and comfortable with the system. It's the same reason why I avoid optional rules until the core system has been given a full workout (although I do intend to immediately add things such as Hit Locations and Krispy Kremes).

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Are Heroic Characteristics Realistic?

 

Even heroic level characters aren't intended to be realistic. They're intended to be, well, heroic.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Are Heroic Characteristics Realistic?

 

As a very general rule of thumb, I suggest players use half their points on Characteristics and half on Skills. Also, I suggest buying PD and ED up to twice their base amount.

 

If your players have spent more than about half their points on Characteristics, you should recommend they drop a few points in areas that aren't critical to their character concept. A 15 STR is real nice for a sneak-thief type, but not necessary...let the brawler spend points there.

 

A friend of mine once made a general criticism of character generation without random elements, saying that all characters end up as fighter/magic-user/thieves...every wants to do everything. And while it is a strength that anyone has that potential, for everyone to try to cover all bases like that does lead to a boring, uniform group of characters. It's best to pick an area or two where you are the best, and a few other areas where you're pretty good, and leave some stuff where you really need to fall back on your friends to cover.

[caris]

Re: Are Heroic Characteristics Realistic?

 

I've always been a GM who runs very low-powered' date=' realistic, and gritty campaigns. HERO, in many obvious ways, is designed toward more cinematic styles. Although I know that I will never, ever graduate to running Superheroes (yuck!), I do hope that HERO will help me break out of my instinctive urge to pretty much oppress the characters as much as possible. Right now, a 20 STR sounds ridiculous to the point of being offensive but that probably has more to do with me than with the system. When I think of a 20 STR, I see one of those guys who are so muscle-bound that they can't put their arms down or achieve any kind of meaningful erection. It's all a matter of perception, really.[/quote']

 

I was going to say earlier that Arnold being a body builder, is not a good example of top weight lifting capacity. Body building is a significantly different discipline from Power Lifting.

 

The world record for a deadlift currently appears to be 455kg (I'm not sure how current my source is, it may have been broken recently). I think the weight that a character could dead lift is probably a little less than the max lift weight of the character's Strength based on the description of max weight in the main book. I would say that would make Andy Bolton (the world record holder) in the 20+ Strength range. How does Andy Bolton measure up to your expectations of what a 20 STR would look?

[casualplayer]

Re: Are Heroic Characteristics Realistic?

 

A 150pt HERO Character is equivalent to the most adept person you have ever met in your life, unless you run in some pretty impressive circles. Sure, if you get really, really precise and esoteric you can burn through a ton of points with KS: John Hughes movies, PS: Fry cook and SS: Donkey husbandry but those really aren't even worth a character point each on a good day. Most of us on the boards could be constructed with 25+25 or even less.

 

So as far as Heroic characters being realistic, sure they do occur. Likely though, nope.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Are Heroic Characteristics Realistic?

 

It sounds vaguely like you're running some kind of modern, action-adventure type campaign.

 

Try this: get the players interested in a niche for their characters. Come up with about twenty or so archetypes you would see in your chosen genre -- for instance, driver, faceman, gunfighter, hacker, mechanic, leader, comms specialist, master of disguise. Use packages if you want -- I think Dark Champions has templates for most of those. Don't force 'em into those if they don't want to do it, but I think having some kind of "character class" in mind can give them a better handle on what they might want to play.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Are Heroic Characteristics Realistic?

 

Personally, I try to avoid modeling the Real World in a Game.

 

I want to model a Game that is Internally Consistent. 20 STR at the absolute maximum should be extraordinary, yes, but also shouldn't break the Game or the Game World. If it does you need to adjust it to the Game.

 

But the Real World is this funny inconsistent and utterly rigidly subjective thing that can't modeled correctly outside of itself. So why try. Have Fun instead.

[pawsplay]

Re: Are Heroic Characteristics Realistic?

 

Am I off? Sure' date=' a 20 STR gets you more than what I provided with what I wrote above but his concern was primarily damage, PD, SPD, and STUN.[/quote']

 

Well, he's lost a DC. But more importantly, he's gone from CV 7 to CV 3. That's +4 OCV, +4 DCV. Depending on how you build him, that's worth between 28 and 40 points. So at a bare minimum, you've cost him 6 points worth of abilities, and that's assuming he specializes in a single weapon.

 

Using 2 CSLs for damage is at least 6 points. That same 6 points will buy you +6 STR (more than one damage class).

 

In general, secondary characteristics and skills will end up costing your character points, unless you specialize in a particular area.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Are Heroic Characteristics Realistic?

 

I really have to try this;

 

I have a few questions out of curiousity

How often do your players select DEX as their over 15 stat?

How often do they buy a 3rd stat at the 2x multipier (or is 15 a hard cap)?

Can the over 15 stats be bought over 20 as well and if so how often does it happen?

 

I have... I want to say two characters who took DEX as one of their stats. One is a Ranger/Sniper, and the other is a Ninja. I don't even think the Arcane Thief took DEX as a stat, oddly enough.

 

None of the players purchased any other stats over 15, and yes, if they wanted too, they could push a stat over 15 but for my purposes, it was understood that you got to pick two, and those two needed valid reasons. So it isn't "pick any two" it's more accurately, "pick any two within your character concept and be prepared to justify it." Worked brilliantly.

 

Most people simply spent skill levels to raise OCV, DCV and the like, although everyone is universally worried what'll happen to the 10 DEX Sylvani, I think we got him up to 12. But that gets me ranting about DEX in this system again. Talk about your money stats. Eesh. But no, honestly, I think that only two PCs took DEX, and both were well within reason for doing so.

[jtelson]

Re: Are Heroic Characteristics Realistic?

 

I have... I want to say two characters who took DEX as one of their stats. One is a Ranger/Sniper, and the other is a Ninja. I don't even think the Arcane Thief took DEX as a stat, oddly enough.

 

None of the players purchased any other stats over 15, and yes, if they wanted too, they could push a stat over 15 but for my purposes, it was understood that you got to pick two, and those two needed valid reasons. So it isn't "pick any two" it's more accurately, "pick any two within your character concept and be prepared to justify it." Worked brilliantly.

 

Most people simply spent skill levels to raise OCV, DCV and the like, although everyone is universally worried what'll happen to the 10 DEX Sylvani, I think we got him up to 12. But that gets me ranting about DEX in this system again. Talk about your money stats. Eesh. But no, honestly, I think that only two PCs took DEX, and both were well within reason for doing so.

 

 

Thank you

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Are Heroic Characteristics Realistic?

 

Thank you

 

You're welcome!

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Are Heroic Characteristics Realistic?

 

I was going to say earlier that Arnold being a body builder, is not a good example of top weight lifting capacity. Body building is a significantly different discipline from Power Lifting.

 

The world record for a deadlift currently appears to be 455kg (I'm not sure how current my source is, it may have been broken recently). I think the weight that a character could dead lift is probably a little less than the max lift weight of the character's Strength based on the description of max weight in the main book. I would say that would make Andy Bolton (the world record holder) in the 20+ Strength range. How does Andy Bolton measure up to your expectations of what a 20 STR would look?

 

Yeah, Powerlifting records are mostly all up at 400 kg or greater

 

And I tend to agree with what someone said above...Heroic doesn't have to mean realistic. Good arguments can be made that Conan, Tarzan and Marv are all 'heroic" level characters, and all of them perform staggeringly unrealistic feats of strength.